FEC gristlegore VS Gloomspite gitz spell

[GlitzFan]

FEC terrorgheist has Savage Strike to fight at the start of the combat phase. Gloomspite wizard used itchy niusance on that model in the hero phase in that turn. Who attacks first now?

[EMMachine]

8 minutes ago, Xasz said:

 

Core Rules, Designer's Commentary page 5.

This doesn't answer the question. Because " itchy niusance " let's the target attack last.

The only FAQ point that has mentioned first Striking and last Striking on the same unit is in the Slaanesh FAQ:

Quote

Q: If a unit is affected by both Locus of Diversion and Horrible
Fascination and has an ability that allows it to attack first, do
they all cancel out?
A: Yes.

With this answer it would cancel out, so the FEC terrorgheist would attack in the normal attack sequence.

[GlitzFan]

So if it is the glomspite turn then the terrorgheist doesnt fight first and in fact will fight LAST.

[Isotop]

On 6/19/2019 at 12:41 PM, EMMachine said:

This doesn't answer the question. Because " itchy niusance " let's the target attack last.

The only FAQ point that has mentioned first Striking and last Striking on the same unit is in the Slaanesh FAQ:

With this answer it would cancel out, so the FEC terrorgheist would attack in the normal attack sequence.

I am pretty sure that is not correct. The new Slaneesh rules specifically define the "canceling out" of their fight-last abilities with abilities that let an enemy model fight first. There is no general rule/FAQ/Designer´s Commentary on this "canceling out" (as far as I know). I think the relevant ruling (Desinger´s Commentary)  for the question of this thread should be this one:

 

"Q: If a Wildfire Taurus’ Whirlwind of Destruction ability forces an Idoneth Deepkin unit to fight at the end of the next combat phase, but the High Tide battle trait is in effect, does the unit fight at the start or the end of the combat phase? A: If two abilities that apply to a unit are contradictory and cannot both be applied, the one that was applied second takes precedence. In this case, that means the Idoneth Deepkin unit would fight at the end of the combat phase. Note this only occurs when it impossible to use both abilities. For example, if one ability gave a unit a hit modifier of +1 and another ability gave the same unit a hit modifier of -1, both would be applied (and effectively cancel each other out)."

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/age_of_sigmar_beasts_of_chaos_designers_commentary_en.pdf, page 1)

 

If I missed a general ruling on the interaction between fight-first and fight-last effects, please point me to it.

[EMMachine]

@Isotop

The main problem is. that GW seems to be unsure how to use Fighting first and fighting last.

The Beasts of Chaos FAQ came first with October 2018 and the Slaanesh FAQ from May 2019 says something totally different in that case.

And sometimes for some strange reasons there were Questions in Faction FAQ that should have be written into the Rule FAQ.

Edited June 20, 2019 by EMMachine

[Xasz]

27 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

 

The main problem is. that GW seems to be unsure how to use Fighting first and fighting last.

The Beasts of Chaos FAQ came first with October 2018 and the Slaanesh FAQ from May 2019 says something totally different in that case.

It feels a lot as if they've decided that manipulating fighting order is the new big thing (which is totally fine) but didn't put in the effort to clear up the most basic edge cases... or they assumed that players would figure out cancellation and the easier stuff themselves (which never happens).

[EMMachine]

9 minutes ago, Xasz said:

It feels a lot as if they've decided that manipulating fighting order is the new big thing (which is totally fine) but didn't put in the effort to clear up the most basic edge cases... or they assumed that players would figure out cancellation and the easier stuff themselves (which never happens).

Yeah, clearing up is a big problem in case of the FAQs

I know this is off-topic in this thread but when we look at the Order Errata/FAQ we still have this strange situation with the Shields of the Wild Riders (where we see that cleaning up seems to be a heavy task for GW.)

FAQ June 2018

Quote

Q: Do the shields that come with Sisters of the Thorns/Wild
Riders models have any special rules?
A: No.

Errata December 2018

Quote

Page 276 – Wild Riders, Description
Add:
‘Some units of Wild Riders carry Wild Rider Shields.’

Page 276 – Wild Riders, Abilities
Add:
‘Wild Rider Shields: You can re-roll save rolls of 1 for
attacks that target a unit carrying Wild Rider Shields.
In addition, subtract 2 from the Move characteristic of a
unit carrying Wild Rider Shields.’

🙄(the shields had no rules until December 2018 but FAQ is still telling us that they have no rules) 🤔

In the end we have the same situation here with fighting first meets fighting last were multiple FAQs have different answers (in case of a ruling that isn't even described in the corerules).

Edited June 20, 2019 by EMMachine

[King Taloren]

5 hours ago, GlitzFan said:

So if it is the glomspite turn then the terrorgheist doesnt fight first and in fact will fight LAST.

No he will still fight in sequence instead of fighting last because the two abilities cancel each other out. Even if it is your turn the ability to fight first isn’t ignored but just cancelled by itchy nuisance as usual.

[King Taloren]

Let’s not forget that GW has stated to always use the most current FAQ regarding any questions on interactions and abilities if there is conflict between rules and FAQ answers.

 The Slaanesh FAQ is the most recent regarding fight first/fight last interactions so it should be considered to take precedence over any other FAQ until/unless  GW says differently.

Edited June 20, 2019 by King Taloren

[Xasz]

Quote

Q: Some abilities allow or require a unit to fight at the start of the combat phase, or the end of the combat phase. How exactly does this work? What happens if two or more units have to fight at the start or the end of the phase?

A: Units that fight at the start or the end of the combat phase make a pile-in move and then attack with their melee weapons before the players start picking any other units to fight in that phase, or after the players have picked all other units to fight in that phase, respectively. So, first you pile in and make attacks with the units that are to fight at the start of the phase, then the players alternate picking units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place, and lastly you pile in and make attacks with units that make attacks at the end of the combat phase. If there are several units fighting at the start or the end of the phase, the player whose turn is taking place attacks with all of their units in the order of their choice, and then their opponent does the same. Note that abilities used at the start or the end of a phase still count as being used in the phase in question.

For example, the Flesh-eater Courts Savage Strike command trait allows a general to fight at the start of the combat phase, while the Stormcast Eternals Sequitor Aetheric Channelling ability is used at the start of the combat phase too. In the Flesh-eater Courts turn, the Savage Strike command trait would take effect before the Sequitor Aetheric Channelling ability. In the Stormcast Eternals turn, the Sequitor Aetheric Channelling ability would take effect before the Savage Strike command trait.

 

Quote

Q: Some abilities say that a unit or model ‘fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players get to pick any other units to fight in that combat phase’. When this is the case, does ‘before the players get to pick any other units to fight in that combat phase’ mean that they fight after any abilities that occur at the start of the phase have been used?

A: No. The unit or model would fight at the start of the phase. The additional words after the comma are simply there to make it clear that this happens at the start of the phase and therefore before any other units fight.

Core Rules, Designer's Commentary page 5.