Let's Chat: Stormsire's Cursebreakers

[Tutenkharnage]

Regarding Trap, Pit Trap, and Lightning Whip, I think @riddlesworth has it right: Trap and Pit Trap trigger at different times, as do Trap and Lightning Whip, but when it comes to a successful Attack action that pushes the target back, Pit Trap and Lightning Whip would both be played at the same time, so only one could be used. I’ll take a longer look through the Designer Commentary later today and post an update. 

[riddlesworth]

I fully expect there to be defined reaction windows in Season 3. Other than card wording being tightened up, its that last bit of game rules that really needs formalising.

[BaldoBeardo]

27 minutes ago, Tutenkharnage said:

Regarding Trap, Pit Trap, and Lightning Whip, I think @riddlesworth has it right: Trap and Pit Trap trigger at different times, as do Trap and Lightning Whip, but when it comes to a successful Attack action that pushes the target back, Pit Trap and Lightning Whip would both be played at the same time, so only one could be used. I’ll take a longer look through the Designer Commentary later today and post an update. 

D'oh, you're right. I misread pit trap somehow.

Trap & either fine, Pit Trap and Lightning Whip no.

[Desidus]

9 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

In the pre ban meta, Magores was never a problem for me because I'd played against them so much with Chosen Axes. Defensive deployment, don't give them a fight in round 1 then go in upgraded and it was much more even. In the new meta, I think they have more deck space for speed upgrades so could be trickier to play into.

Why drop Shardgale? What's the logic?

On the reaction point, depends on the window. So Trap is during an action that could drive an enemy back and Pit Trap is after an action that could drive an enemy back, so you can play both (Trap first, obviously).

Lightning Whip is after an attack action that succeeds. So I think Trap, then Lightning Whip is legit. Lightning Whip then Pit Trap is possibly the same window.

Dropping shardgale again because I just don't like being dropped easily into 1shot range. 

Regarding Trap / lightning whip. Wouldn't lightning whip activate first, and then followed by trap? 

The issue arose last night within my gaming group where someone wanted to play Trap, Pit trap off an attack action, with his opponent wanting to play My turn. 

Is there a restriction on the number of reactions that can be played? I can't for the life of me remember.

[Tutenkharnage]

The restriction is in the timing. Only one reaction can be played at any given time, As explained on page 23 of the Nightvault rulebook:

Each reaction describes the situation in which it can be used. It might say, for example, 'during an Attack action', 'after an Attack action' or 'when your opponent plays a ploy'. ...

The situation described in a reaction might be very specific, for example 'during an Attack action that has failed' — a reaction with this situation can only be used during an Attack action, after all dice have been rolled but before the combat sequence (pg 19) has been completed.

You may find that in some situations more than one reaction could be used at exactly the same time – for example, during an Attack action. However, only one reaction can be played at each such instance. The player whose activation is next takes precedence — if they do not wish to play a reaction, the other player has an opportunity to play a reaction.

For example, if both players had a reaction which could be used after an Attack action was made, the player whose activation came next would decide whether or not to use their reaction. If they use it, the other player cannot use their reaction. If they decide not to use it, the other player can then decide whether or not to use their own reaction.

So! 

1. Trap is played "during a friendly fighter's Attack action that drives an enemy fighter back."
2. Pit Trap is played "after an Attack action that drives an enemy fighter back."
3. Lightning Whip is played "after this fighter's Attack action that succeeds."
4. My Turn is played "after an Attack action or ploy that damages a friendly fighter."

In the case of Trap, Pit Trap, and Lightning Whip, Pit Trap and Lightning Whip take place during the same window—namely, after the Attack action. But Trap is played during the Attack action, so you could play Trap when the enemy fighter is driven back and then one of the other cards afterward. (Note that if the attack missed because of a draw, only Pit Trap could be played.)

In the case of Trap, Pit Trap, and My Turn, Trap takes precedence because it is the only one of the three that is played during the Attack action. Pit Trap and My Turn would both be played after the Attack action, but only one of them can be played, and priority would go to the player whose activation would be next. (This is usually the defender, but not always. If Sanson Farstrider charged Ghartok Flayskull and missed the initial attack, the Fiends player could counter with Ghartok's Gorefist attack and then play Trap and Pit Trap, thereby preventing the Farstriders player from playing My Turn.)

Whew! That was a lot. Hope it all makes sense.

[riddlesworth]

On 11/23/2018 at 10:03 PM, Desidus said:

Dropping shardgale again because I just don't like being dropped easily into 1shot range. 

That's where I was at before y'all convinced me otherwise

 

though the lethality of the game has severely dropped without the easy access to hidden damage in ploys. I take it thats why?

[Desidus]

1 hour ago, riddlesworth said:

That's where I was at before y'all convinced me otherwise

 

though the lethality of the game has severely dropped without the easy access to hidden damage in ploys. I take it thats why?

I've been flicking back and forth on it, and to be honest, just feel like over all its more of a detriment to the deck than an advantage (especially when it comes to scoring Precise use of force / Measured strike

[cplhicks]

I attended my first tournament (16 players) with the Cursebreakers last weekend.  It was my first time playing them and I only had a few practice games so I wasn't expecting to do well.   I managed to scored 3rd place!  I am trying to get a full set of acrylic tokens so I was super happy with how they did.  Abasoth's Unmaking and Withering got work done!  They are now permanent auto includes in my deck.  I caught all my opponents off guard with them. 

I'm loving the post restrictive meta.  There was a ton of different warbands and lots of variety in deck builds at the tournament.  

 

[riddlesworth]

What did Unmaking do for you against aggro decks? Other than being a relatively easy inspire for the bossman?

[PJetski]

31 minutes ago, riddlesworth said:

What did Unmaking do for you against aggro decks? Other than being a relatively easy inspire for the bossman?

Easy inspire (especially important vs aggro decks), it denies cards like Zealous Defender and Irresistable Prize, and it easily scores Magical Supremacy, Fired Up, Inspiring Leader, and Harness the Storm.

[riddlesworth]

9 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Easy inspire (especially important vs aggro decks), it denies cards like Zealous Defender and Irresistable Prize, and it easily scores Magical Supremacy, Fired Up, Inspiring Leader, and Harness the Storm.

All legit points.

 

It's an 88% to cast for Averon. 

[Requizen]

2 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

What did Unmaking do for you against aggro decks? Other than being a relatively easy inspire for the bossman?

Really hurts aggro Dwarves if they're common. Some aggro decks still run Supremacy/OOWO/Tactical Supremacy for occasional glory spikes.

[cplhicks]

As you guys have said it is very versatile card no matter who you face.   Helps to shut down treasure lust, glory keys and the tomes etc. 

[Tutenkharnage]

I was talking about it with a local player last weekend. We had both separately come to the conclusion that it was a fantastic card to combat the swelling ranks of objective-focuses warbands. (I have some ideas for using it against aggro warbands, but my gut tells me that the scenarios are a bit too niche to worry about.)

[Desidus]

27 minutes ago, Tutenkharnage said:

I was talking about it with a local player last weekend. We had both separately come to the conclusion that it was a fantastic card to combat the swelling ranks of objective-focuses warbands. (I have some ideas for using it against aggro warbands, but my gut tells me that the scenarios are a bit too niche to worry about.)

I think you either take Unmaking or Mischievous Spirits (Pseudo Concussion, but moves objectives only), depending on what warband you are running. 

The 4 Hex range is a bit of a downer, however if it was board wide it would be broken.

Regarding against aggro bands, it really depends what their deck set up is like. Most Aggro bands would prefer to use Centre of attention instead of Irresistable prize, (with maybe dwarves being the only outlier to this) as Centre of Attention by and large has more dynamic set of uses, at least that's what I've found in my own gameplay.

[PJetski]

The Farstriders definitely use IP over COA, and they are probably the only matchup I am actually worried about when I use the Cursebreakers...

[riddlesworth]

Mischievous spirits is more disruptive against the objective game but has more limitations against aggro.

 

Katophrane relic blog has a really good cursebreakers write up from the weekend

[Desidus]

4 hours ago, PJetski said:

The Farstriders definitely use IP over COA, and they are probably the only matchup I am actually worried about when I use the Cursebreakers...

See Farstriders really don't worry me. 

30 minutes ago, riddlesworth said:

Mischievous spirits is more disruptive against the objective game but has more limitations against aggro.

 

Katophrane relic blog has a really good cursebreakers write up from the weekend

 

I didn't really like his deck to be honest. But then again, my decks significantly more aggro than everyone else's so that's probably why.

[riddlesworth]

The only thing I didn't like were What Armour (as dead rastus = dead draw), Extreme Flank (because of my playstyle) and no Spells in the warband that's all about the spells.

 

Clearly his positioning and gameplay was on point or he wouldn't have won. The fact that there are different ways to build the deck and still be successful is very positive though.

 

He also has a great point on My Turn. 4 health is relevant again. Interesting that he, like you Desidus, finds that Shardgale in the new meta is too risky given the lower levels of lethality.

[Desidus]

Extreme flank is definitely a questionable choice in this warband. 

I think he opted for What Armour because it's relatively easy to score on the turn you empower. I would definitely argue that there are better score immediately cards that we have access too. 

100% agree on the spells, it's probably why he's running Inspiration Strikes. 

 

[cplhicks]

I ran What Armour in my deck with ok results.  I also have Butcher's Eye  in case Rastus dies or I really really want to nuke something hard with my Dawnguard ballistic missile system lol. 

I am starting to look for another score immediately  card to replace it though. 

[PJetski]

5 hours ago, Desidus said:

See Farstriders really don't worry me. 

I think people haven't adapted them to the BAR yet.

In my opinion the best deck right now is a very defensive Farstriders list that sits back in its own territory (running both Inspire cards + Hidden Paths) and pings you with pistols before finishing off your key fighters with damage ploys.  It scores through efficient/positioning objectives like Keep Them Guessing, Extreme Flank, Skirting Danger, etc. while sniping down your key fighters. It's really tough to counter it!

I also think that Cursebreakers are the 2nd strongest warband. They can score so many immediate objectives that they have a strong chance of snowballing every match.

[riddlesworth]

3 hours ago, PJetski said:

I think people haven't adapted them to the BAR yet.

In my opinion the best deck right now is a very defensive Farstriders list that sits back in its own territory (running both Inspire cards + Hidden Paths) and pings you with pistols before finishing off your key fighters with damage ploys.  It scores through efficient/positioning objectives like Keep Them Guessing, Extreme Flank, Skirting Danger, etc. while sniping down your key fighters. It's really tough to counter it!

I also think that Cursebreakers are the 2nd strongest warband. They can score so many immediate objectives that they have a strong chance of snowballing every match.

It was pretty much the same pre ban list tbf (for both warbands)

 

With the exception of Shardgale, which was more useful pre ban as the difference between 3 health and 4 health for a 1 shot was minimal with the cards available

[Tutenkharnage]

9 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

Mischievous spirits is more disruptive against the objective game but has more limitations against aggro.

It’s kind of janky, but I’m considering packing Mischievous Spirits alongside Intervention so that it retains some usefulness against aggro warbands. Just have to figure out where they’ll be and place your objective tokens accordingly. Probably too fancy to be worthwhile, but Intervention does score immediately and should be a good card against objective-holding warbands, so it might be worth the effort. 

@PJetski: Why do you think Farstriders would prefer Irresistible Prize to Centre of Attention? I’m still working through my first real foray into Farstriders and can’t see the allure (outside of the aforementioned Intervention).

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, Tutenkharnage said:

 

@PJetski: Why do you think Farstriders would prefer Irresistible Prize to Centre of Attention? I’m still working through my first real foray into Farstriders and can’t see the allure (outside of the aforementioned Intervention).

Farstriders only have 3 models and they want to stay spread out on the edges for cards like HP, Skirting Danger, and Extreme Flank, so they often won't be able to use COA defensively, but IP offers some defensive utility as well as offensive utility - it can also pull enemies onto objectives to set up kills with Lethal Ward.

If you start thinking about objectives like Lethal and Blocked hexes then there's a lot of fun tricks you can pull off. Zealous Defender is a strictly better version of Helpful Whispers if you can sit on an objective, Lethal Ward is guaranteed damage from anywhere on the board, and Irresistible Prize is one of the most versatile push cards in the game.

Here's an anecdote: In the third round of a tournament I was playing Farstriders vs Cursebreakers. In the first game I predicted he was trying to score Extreme Flank and I was able to use it to pull him off an edge to deny it (and I guessed right!). In the second game I used IP to deny a Hidden Paths kill. When he HP'd into my backline I was able to get out of range of his attacks by using IP - if that was COA then I wouldn't have been able to do that.