Help starting tzeentch

[Sception]

My brother just started a tzeentch army.  I tried to point him towards nighthaunt or flesh eaters, since I'm quite familiar with death, but he saw the mega ultra chicken and it was love at first sight, nothing I could do, so here I am looking for advice.  His initial purchases were mostly based on what he thought looked cool:

• Battletome Disciples of Tzeentch
• Lord of Change
• Start Collecting Daemons of Tzeentch
• 1 box Blue/Brimstone Horrorse
• 1 box Tzaangors
• Changeling
• Gaunt Summoner on disk

I reccomended the gaunt summoner because I heard they were good, not realizing that there were different gaunt summoner models with different rules, and the not-on-disk one was the one to get.  I suggested putting the summoner on a 32 and mounting the herald on its disk, but for aesthetic reasons he kept the summoner on disk, and put the herald on the chariot.  Which is, I think, maybe the worst way to go mechanically, but oh well.  He loved the goofy moon faced herald, and was adament that both it and the summoner get the fanciest possible steeds.

In addition to that pile, i'm giving him some spare stuff from my 40k army:

• 10 more pink horrors
• Magister (sorcerer, actually, but close enough for counts as)
• 3 spawn
• Soul grinder

That's... already more models to paint than any starting player should be messing with, but i want to help round it into something vaguely playable.  I'm looking at grabbing him another box of blues and an on-foot gaunt summoner to correct my error there, plus a box of tzangors to bulk out that unit, but I'm open to alternative suggestions within a similar budget.  Any advice?

[FPC]

Definitely start to fill out the tzaangors and arm plenty with savage blades.  In small games 20 isn’t bad, but making out to 30 is strong.  A tzaangor Shaman is nice to go with them.  Also can’t go wrong with some kairic acolytes to fill battleline, unless he’d rather fill them with pink horrors.

[Cambot1231]

Tzaangor seem to be where its at.  Definitely grab a tzaangor shaman.  A small pack of tzaangor enlightened instead of soul grinder might suit the army better for aesthetics and synergies.  The daemons are great to have on hand for summoning.  If he is into the magic chicken there is a summoning build for him using mark of the conjurer artifact and Cogs to triple his summoning output.  All this maybe a little too high level for a new player just starting off, but there it is  

[Sception]

The grinder is already owned.  Not an automatic list include, but it is an option hell have regardless.  Summoning is good, but since his collection is just starting, he only has so many units to summon.

For 1k points im leaning towards suggesting:

• Changeling (cuz he loves it)
• Gaunt on disk (cuz he has it)
• 20 tzaangors (after purchasing 2nd box box)
• 10 pinks
• Cogs

With a summoning pool of

• LoC
• Herald on chariot
• Exalted flamer
• 3 flamers
• 3 screamers
• 10 more pinks
• 20 blues (after purchasing 2nd box)
• 20 brims (after purchasing 2nd box)

More tzaangors, whether units or heroes, would have to wait.

I really think hed have been better off if he let me put that summoner on foot, the herald on the disk, and the exalted flamer on the chariot.  Maybe I should have pushed harder.  But it isnt my army, and i didn't want to be a ****** about it...

[FPC]

Yea probably no question about it. The gaunt summoner’s signature spell is easily one of the best out there. If you’re just playing friendly games tho, maybe try to convince him to use the rules for the foot one for a game so he sees just how powerful it is. And be sure to take a large unit of 1 wound infantry! He might change his mind.

[Sception]

As a Legions of Nagash player, I'm never *not* taking large units of 1 wound infantry.  ?

The herald-on-chariot isn't entirely glued together yet.  Looking at it, I'm pretty sure i can magnetize the disk part to pop off for use as a herald-on-disk just as easily, so that's one worry resolved.  Kind of wish i had thought to try/suggest that with the gaunt summoner before it was fully assembled.  I doubt I'd be able to remove it from the disk without damaging it at this point.  Might be better to just get the foot model rather than risk it.

But i dont want him to end up with a model he just won't use.  I never see *any* disk riding summoners in posted lists.  Are they bad?  If so, maybe I'll risk it, and surrupticipusly replace the model if I ****** it up....

[Drib]

6 minutes ago, Sception said:

As a Legions of Nagash player, I'm never *not* taking large units of 1 wound infantry.  ?

The herald-on-chariot isn't entirely glued together yet.  Looking at it, I'm pretty sure i can magnetize the disk part to pop off for use as a herald-on-disk just as easily, so that's one worry resolved.  Kind of wish i had thought to try/suggest that with the gaunt summoner before it was fully assembled.  I doubt I'd be able to remove it from the disk without damaging it at this point.  Might be better to just get the foot model rather than risk it.

But i dont want him to end up with a model he just won't use.  I never see *any* disk riding summoners in posted lists.  Are they bad?  If so, maybe I'll risk it, and surrupticipusly replace the model if I ****** it up....

Well I think their spell-range is very low espacially for someone you don't want to see in close combat. Also the On-Foot-One's spell is just dope against hordes. Deleting half a unit and than the battleshock takes the rest.

The only reason to field a Gaunt Summoner on Disk, that I see, is in a "Overlords of Chaos" Battalion (Everchosen), where he needs to be within 3" of Archaon in your hero phase to predetermin who goes first next round. But then again, never seen a Everchosen list perform.

[Sception]

Whelp, I'll have to give it a try.  Kicking myself for not remembering magnets were a thing ehen assembling it in the first place.  I can only hope i didnt glue those tentacles down too well. 

[Sception]

Spoiler

Chariot was easy peasy, no problem. Summoner is fine on foot, but has developed a bit of a lean on the disk. After the current green stuff dries, i might have to try adding a bit more to one side to even him out.

[Sception]

Assuming i could get my hands on the familiars, is there any reason not to run thw gaunt summoner with them?  It seems to be the same unit for the same price, only with +4 wounds and +1 to cast as long as its not on its last wound.  Am I understanding that correctly?

[Drib]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

Assuming i could get my hands on the familiars, is there any reason not to run thw gaunt summoner with them?  It seems to be the same unit for the same price, only with +4 wounds and +1 to cast as long as its not on its last wound.  Am I understanding that correctly?

Well, the warscroll is still 'your enemy gets to decide where the wound goes', but as for the Silver Tower FAQ he would work as you said.  No drawback, nice boni and +4 wounds.

I got my Familiars from eBay, but Games Workshop still sells the resin ones.

[themortalgod]

Its not actually +4 wounds from the familiars as the attacker chooses wound allocation to hit familiars or the gaunt. I can't think of a compelling reason to ever target the familiars. Though, personally, I hate how often in AoS we end up in situations like this where you always want to take one version of a model over another because it is objectively better and costs the same. (Another example being DPs with and without wings) 

Back on topic, I'd recommend your brother pick up a Curseling (or convert one) as it is incredibly good this edition. Being able to cast 2 spells at a 160pt base price makes him the cheapest double caster in the game (that I know of?), on top of that his, Vessel of Chaos ability makes it possible for him to cast 2 more spells on your opponent's turn so long as he unbinds successfully. 160pts for potentially casting 4 spells per battle round is ridiculously good imo. Now that LoC doesn't "need" to be general anymore he has become my go to general rocking Arcane sacrifice. 

[Drib]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, themortalgod said:

Its not actually +4 wounds from the familiars as the attacker chooses wound allocation to hit familiars or the gaunt. I can't think of a compelling reason to ever target the familiars. Though, personally, I hate how often in AoS we end up in situations like this where you always want to take one version of a model over another because it is objectively better and costs the same. (Another example being DPs with and without wings) 

Back on topic, I'd recommend your brother pick up a Curseling (or convert one) as it is incredibly good this edition. Being able to cast 2 spells at a 160pt base price makes him the cheapest double caster in the game (that I know of?), on top of that his, Vessel of Chaos ability makes it possible for him to cast 2 more spells on your opponent's turn so long as he unbinds successfully. 160pts for potentially casting 4 spells per battle round is ridiculously good imo. Now that LoC doesn't "need" to be general anymore he has become my go to general rocking Arcane sacrifice. 

 

Check the latest errata for the Silvertower warscrolls, here.

 

And the Cursling isn't the cheapest 2 spell cast, as the Arch Worlock only costs 140 points (with no spell lore and only one unbind).

[Sception]

Curseling is the cheapest in the tzeentch allegiance, but the warlock's good to know.

[Sception]

Family stuff has kept this project from progressing in the last couple weeks, and I don't want to do a lot of work without him, but I have ordered the familiars, and I think the coolness of the familiars will be enough to convince my brother to run the summoner off of his disk.  I did fix the summoner to be more upright when on his disk:

I think I'm still aiming him at:

summoner with familiars
changeling
10 pinks
20 tzangors
60 points left over for either cogs or portals

as a starting 1000 point list.  I just need to come up with a 1000 point undead list that it can reasonably compete with but that doesn't amount to me throwing the game.  I feel like my typical 1k LoN lists will smash it (40 skittles, 2x5 wolves, necromancer, either a dragon lord or arkhan and a wight king, either way with points left over for an extra CP), so maybe some tomb kings business?  Maybe tomb king, liche priest, 40 skeletons, 3 chariots, warsphinx, and either a balewind or a pendulum?  I don't know.

[Curzex]

For me core is 

Loc

Gaunt with familiars

At least 1 shaman

The curseling

Enought horrors for pink drops

30 tzangors.

 

[themortalgod]

17 minutes ago, Sception said:

Family stuff has kept this project from progressing in the last couple weeks, and I don't want to do a lot of work without him, but I have ordered the familiars, and I think the coolness of the familiars will be enough to convince my brother to run the summoner off of his disk.  I did fix the summoner to be more upright when on his disk:

I think I'm still aiming him at:

summoner with familiars
changeling
10 pinks
20 tzangors
60 points left over for either cogs or portals

as a starting 1000 point list.  I just need to come up with a 1000 point undead list that it can reasonably compete with but that doesn't amount to me throwing the game.  I feel like my typical 1k LoN lists will smash it (40 skittles, 2x5 wolves, necromancer, either a dragon lord or arkhan and a wight king, either way with points left over for an extra CP), so maybe some tomb kings business?  Maybe tomb king, liche priest, 40 skeletons, 3 chariots, warsphinx, and either a balewind or a pendulum?  I don't know.

I think you may be surprised, once he gets good with it he should be able to give the above list a good run for its money. The summoner will gut the skeletons and there is enough MW output to threaten either big hero. Also remember that thanks to your help, he will be generating quite a high number of fate points per turn considering the pts level. Esp if you bring Arkhan. He has to play smart though and he has to learn his army as well as you know his or he will always be a step behind.

[Sception]

Arkhan brings two +2 dispels, and if I'm fielding the dragon instead, I'm not convinced he has the mortals output to drop it before it mauls him.  As for fate points, generating them is fair enough, but putting them to use is rather limited by his initial collection, though he isn't completely lacking there.  I don't know, I might be overestimating my deadites, I tend to do that, but regardless I think I'll let him cut his teeth on my considerably less intimidating dusty bones first.

And they're not completely toothless either.  A big block of skeletins and a sphynx is still a lot to handle, and while he has the tools to threaten either, a few chariots can be quite a distraction.

[themortalgod]

17 hours ago, Sception said:

Arkhan brings two +2 dispels, and if I'm fielding the dragon instead, I'm not convinced he has the mortals output to drop it before it mauls him.  As for fate points, generating them is fair enough, but putting them to use is rather limited by his initial collection, though he isn't completely lacking there.  I don't know, I might be overestimating my deadites, I tend to do that, but regardless I think I'll let him cut his teeth on my considerably less intimidating dusty bones first.

And they're not completely toothless either.  A big block of skeletins and a sphynx is still a lot to handle, and while he has the tools to threaten either, a few chariots can be quite a distraction.

He does, for sure, but that Tzeentch army has 4 (5 if he has cogs) spells casts so even Arkhan can't completely mitigate the casting. You will need to be picky about what you try to stop. If you save one dispel to stop the anti-horde spell it means more targetted mortal wounds are coming at Arkhan. Don't underestimate destiny dice. +2 to cast isn't great odds when he destiny dices a 5 and 6 or something like that on the gaunt for a 12 casting roll. Also, don't forget those Tzaangor will put out a couple MW per turn from their banner if he keeps all his wizards near them. 

That said, the changeling is probably his biggest weakness atm as paying 20% of his army list pts into a hero who has very limited use is probably not optimal. He may want to forego that changeling until 2k pts if he starts to struggle. Dropping the changeling means he could bring in a Curseling with 40pts left over which, when coupled with the existing 60pts leftover buys a unit of blues to use as chaf. If you take into consideration splitting, that change would add 20 more wounds to his army and the Curseling is a far better caster (And fighter) than the Changeling.

[Sception]

I agree on a curseling, or pretty much anything else, being a better use of 200 points than the changeling, but it's his favorite model (apart from the lord of change, which isn't built yet and is a bit of a bear to fit into 1k points), and the first hero he assembled, so for now it stays in.

[GeneralZero]

I have absolutely no idea of good (or semi competitive /full competitive) list of tzench but I'd like to start.

Is the battleforce box a nice start? it contains

1 Tzaangor Shaman
20 Tzaangors
3 Tzaangor Enlightened
3 Tzaangor Skyfires
20 Kairic Acolytes 

If I go down this route, what do I need? (objective 2k points to fight my own other armies : sce, death, nh which all are competitive)