AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Chumphammer]

3 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

So i didnt like my lack of bodies in this first list, and i sorely missed the Slaughter queen CA. I couldnt find room for the Blood sisters which is the only thing im a bit worried about since i know ill be facing some OBR and im not sure how im going to handle them without -2 from a mindrazor'd Melusai. I think this list is a bit stronger against most everything else. More bodies, Blood orgy, extra command point. 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (90)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (90)
- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 106
 

Could drop the command point and a hag queen and run a 2nd Medusa? Double bloodwrack stare can really make a mess of things. Only having the cauldron and 1 unit with rend 1 might be tough vs OBR. I wouldnt want to face them without snakes or double medusa. 

The list is fine for 1500 points otherwise

[Ser_namron]

On 2/18/2020 at 11:27 AM, Mxxaxxg said:

I am sure this has been covered before but I am a new DoK player and wondering if the Orgy of Slaughter command ability can only be used in your own hero phase.

Per Core rules FAQ 
COMMAND ABILITIES Q: Many command abilities on older warscrolls don’t specify in which phase they are used. When can I use such command abilities?
A: Command abilities that don’t specify when they are used are always used in your hero phase

Since it says hero phase on the command i always assumed that meant only your hero phase. If im wrong, id LOVE to be corrected, because damn that'd be amazing lol. 

Edit- Dang, it sure seems like we can do hero activate in any players hero phase according to FAQ. Been playing this army for near 2 years without this >.< would love clarification. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Ser_namron

[Ser_namron]

5 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Could drop the command point and a hag queen and run a 2nd Medusa? Double bloodwrack stare can really make a mess of things. Only having the cauldron and 1 unit with rend 1 might be tough vs OBR. I wouldnt want to face them without snakes or double medusa. 

The list is fine for 1500 points otherwise

a 2nd stare would be nice, as would the 2nd spellcast/unbind. I kinda overlooked her stare for damage, so i will keep that in mind! Im not sure if it'd worth dropping a 2nd hags brew though. Having both units of 30 immune to bshock and rerolling wounds seems like the weightier option for most non OBR matchups. Im not exactly sold on the extra command point, the math just kinda worked out to 30-50 spare points with list building so i figured i'd lean into that hero phase activate. 

[Graywater]

4 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

So i didnt like my lack of bodies in this first list, and i sorely missed the Slaughter queen CA. I couldnt find room for the Blood sisters which is the only thing im a bit worried about since i know ill be facing some OBR and im not sure how im going to handle them without -2 from a mindrazor'd Melusai. I think this list is a bit stronger against most everything else. More bodies, Blood orgy, extra command point. 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (90)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (90)
- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 106
 

Knowing you're going to play OBR definitely makes me think you'll want snakes. However, your slaughter queen letting you fight in the hero phase will help, since they wont be able to activate their reroll saves on mortek guard for that activation. That should help. Your witches throw enough attacks that weight of dice should get you decently far.

[Graywater]

53 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Per Core rules FAQ 
COMMAND ABILITIES Q: Many command abilities on older warscrolls don’t specify in which phase they are used. When can I use such command abilities?
A: Command abilities that don’t specify when they are used are always used in your hero phase

Since it says hero phase on the command i always assumed that meant only your hero phase. If im wrong, id LOVE to be corrected, because damn that'd be amazing lol. 

Edit- Dang, it sure seems like we can do hero activate in any players hero phase according to FAQ. Been playing this army for near 2 years without this >.< would love clarification. 

I dont see where it let's us use it in the opponents hero phase, since the FAQ answer uses the phrase in your hero phase. Is there something else you're seeing that makes you think otherwise?

[Ser_namron]

34 minutes ago, Graywater said:

I dont see where it let's us use it in the opponents hero phase, since the FAQ answer uses the phrase in your hero phase. Is there something else you're seeing that makes you think otherwise?

Well it says 

34 minutes ago, Graywater said:

Command abilities that don’t specify when they are used are always used in your hero phase

the Orgy of slaughter specifies hero phase, where as other older command abilities literally have no specification of phase, they just say what it does. each player gets a hero phase, so the CA works in hero phases. versus something that has no specification would only work in your hero phase with this FAQ.  Example of" Command abilities that don’t specify when they are used"- Saurus old blood -"paragon of order" . with the FAQ that becomes only useable "in your hero phase" 

So the "your hero phase" doesnt apply because the warscroll already specifies that it is used in " the hero phase" 

I could easily be wrong, and im sure someone knows for sure because DOK havent changed in like 2 years lol.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Ser_namron

[Graywater]

11 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Well it says 

the Orgy of slaughter specifies hero phase, where as other older command abilities literally have no specification of phase, they just say what it does. each player gets a hero phase, so the CA works in hero phases. versus something that has no specification would only work in your hero phase with this FAQ. 

So the "your hero phase" doesnt apply because the warscroll already specifies that it is used in " the hero phase" 

I could easily be wrong, and im sure someone knows for sure because DOK havent changed in like 2 years lol.

Interesting. I've only ever played it or seen it played in the DOK hero phase, but I follow what you're saying and it seems to make sense. Theres also precedent for such timing in the blades of khorne blood tithe table. I'll have to look at the wording for that. I doubt I'll play it as either player's hero phase, because that doesnt seem to be what was intended. It's an older book with some different wording than the more universal wording in newer books, so I'll go on the side of caution. It's a strong ability as is.

[Chumphammer]

I don't usually uses a SQ but I am in my new lists. So, this is something I haven't looked into. However:

Covering the ground again here (these are all copied and pasted from FAQ and Book so wording as is)

From Rulebook FAQ
Q: Many command abilities on older warscrolls don’t specify in which phase they are used. When can I use such command abilities? A: Command abilities that don’t specify when they are used are always used in your hero phase.

Ability from DOK book warscroll:

COMMAND ABILITY
Orgy of Slaughter: If this model is your general,
you can use this ability. If you do, pick a friendly
DAUGHTERS OF KHAINE unit within 14" of
this model. If that unit is within 3" of an enemy
unit, it can pile in and attack as if it were the
combat phase.

No info in DOK faq

At no point does it say in the rule that it is any phase, especially "specifies hero phase". This therefor would default to the rulebook faq, and can only be used in your hero phase

I do note that it doesnt way when in the hero phase, which means I did play it wrong when I used it as I thought I had to use it at the start of the turn before buffs

Edited February 19, 2020 by Chumphammer

[Ser_namron]

10 minutes ago, Graywater said:

I doubt I'll play it as either player's hero phase, because that doesnt seem to be what was intended. It's an older book with some different wording than the more universal wording in newer books, so I'll go on the side of caution. It's a strong ability as is.

Im not sure if that wasnt what they intended or not, all i know is that RAW i seem to be correct. But im with you and ill tread on the side of caution until i can get some clarification, Surely it would've been used in a tournament or two by now. 

[Ser_namron]

3 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

No info in DOK faq

At no point does it say in the rule that it is any phase, especially "specifies hero phase". This therefor would default to the rulebook faq, and can only be used in your hero phase

the Errata added " the same unit cannot be picked to benefit from this command ability more than once per hero phase" isnt that specifying a phase? Though now i know that was an errata ( i was just reading off the AOS app scroll that has that added into it) it would seem like it wasn't specified like all the rest before that.  So i do think its probably only our hero phase. Oh well, still as amazing as it has been lol.

[Chumphammer]

3 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

the Errata added " the same unit cannot be picked to benefit from this command ability more than once per hero phase" isnt that specifying a phase? Though now i know that was an errata ( i was just reading off the AOS app scroll that has that added into it) it would seem like it wasn't specified like all the rest before that.  So i do think its probably only our hero phase. Oh well, still as amazing as it has been lol.

But thats in the errata for general rules of command abilities. The Orgy of slaughter doesnt state, so falls into faq 1, with the fact it can only be used once in your turn as the faq2

 

[Ser_namron]

2 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

But thats in the errata for general rules of command abilities

100% , i was interpreting that as being part of the scroll, so it would duck the FAQ. But since it was added to the scroll it was first and foremost, unspecified which gets hit by the FAQ to "your hero phase"

[Ser_namron]

19 hours ago, Graywater said:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (90)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen (90)
- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 106

Got my game in against OBR last night for practice. Happy to report the list did EXCEEDINGLY well. My rolls were god-like, so we're having a rematch to make sure it wasnt a fluke lol.  
What i learned for going against OBR- 
* weight of attacks are going to get through Mortek gaurd with a fully buffed unit. 
* BEWARE of being wholly within 18" of the nexus, that slow affect is so brutal and will tarpit your army. easily avoided by daisy chaining, 
* Bloodwrack medusa stare is clutch ( 7/10 mortals on first stare lol) 
* Stalkers are scary, they can charge with fly so im making mental notes to really shore up the backline and leave no gaps for them. 
* heart piercer sheilds are god like. 
* Hero phase activate is a MUST have. Avoiding the reroll saves on OBR units is a must. If you dont outright kill the unit, the opponent is gonna bring the majority of them back. If you can get the heroes even better, but DOK isnt known for hero sniping lol.

Overall really happy with the performance, but i think the rolls were above average so i need to temper expectations for the next battle. Only thing i was debating changing was the unit of SoS, they ended up being in the back babysitting an objective, i thought maybe a heartrender unit and a triumph might be better. Maybe 2 scourge chariots if i had the models lol.

[Chumphammer]

Played my first game vs Nagash (and in OBR) last night

It was pretty brutal and I learned a lot from it 

He had:

Petrifix Elite
Nagash
Leige-Kavalos (godbone armor, mighty Archaeossian)
3 x 10 Mortek Guard
4 Morghast Harbringers
Bone Tithe shrieker
Umbral Spellportal

I had:

Hag Narr
Slaughter queen on cauldron: Blessing of khaine, general
Bloodwrack Shrine: Shadow stone, mindrazor
Hag Queen: Catachism of murder
3 x 10 Sisters of slaughter with bucklers
20 Blood Sisters
Gotrek

Mission rolled was star strike

Mistakes I made: 

1: I pushed too hard. He made me go first, and I won priority turn 1-2. I failed to get mindrazor and blessing off and should have held back, keeping obj, or charged my snakes into 10 mortek on the flank to take them out. But no, I ran straight into his center thinking I could break it and did 3 kills to 2 units...Damn those saves. 

2: I charged the medusa into the liege. This was a mistake as it was a slap off, neither of us doing anything as he had a 2+ reroll 1 save. Urgh lol. The medusa would have been alot more useful where her MW output can actually take down his units not 1 w off a hero.

3: no pulling my SOS out of combat with the liege. If I had retreated them, I would have held a position for an extra 2 turns for VP while he was stuck with the medusa. I didnt, so he killed them making the point contested.

Things I didnt know that I do now:

1: Nagash heals 5 units for 3 damage at the beginning of each turn
2: Nagash gives his army rerolls of 1 for armour saves
3: the free scenery can give a unit no run/only 1d6 charge. this cripples Gotrek. 

So game ended top of turn 4. 

He had nagash on half wounds (stuck in combat with a fully buffed Slaughter queen) 2 x 10 Mortek on the back obj, his liege on 5 wounds and 1 morghast on 4 wounds in with the SQ as well.

I had SQ on 10 wounds, Medusa on 9 wounds, and Gotrek on 5 Wounds.

I got turn, Nagash gets 2 rounds of combat on him from SQ and dies/Gotrek gets there and kills stuff also. This caps me both points that were there and wipes out his characters. He keep his 1 obj with 2 mortek but them unable to contest the other 2 in time (or getting through a round vs Gotrek and the SQ)

If he doubles, I can still waste him in combat as still fully buffed, if I survive magic.

Sadly he got the double, and managed to hand of dust the SQ. This means I didnt have the bodies to take down what was left as he caps another double set of obj

Oh well. Lots of learning from that game!


"* BEWARE of being wholly within 18" of the nexus, that slow affect is so brutal and will tarpit your army. easily avoided by daisy chaining, " 
Wish I had seen this before the game lol

[Mxxaxxg]

On 2/19/2020 at 1:18 PM, Chumphammer said:

But thats in the errata for general rules of command abilities. The Orgy of slaughter doesnt state, so falls into faq 1, with the fact it can only be used once in your turn as the faq2

 

This is the part that has me confused.  I think the intention is to still only be usable in your hero phase, but the current App warscroll has the following wording:

"If this model is your general, you can use this ability.  If you do, pick a friendly Daughters of Khaine unit within 14" of this model.  If hat nit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it can pile in and attack as if it were the combat phase.  The same unit cannot be picked to benefit from this command ability more than once per hero phase."

The last sentence was added later with the errata and makes it sound like it can be used in any hero phase.  I don't think this was the intention when GW added this sentence to the scroll, but I was just wondering how everyone else was playing it.

[Chumphammer]

41 minutes ago, Mxxaxxg said:

This is the part that has me confused.  I think the intention is to still only be usable in your hero phase, but the current App warscroll has the following wording:

"If this model is your general, you can use this ability.  If you do, pick a friendly Daughters of Khaine unit within 14" of this model.  If hat nit is within 3" of an enemy unit, it can pile in and attack as if it were the combat phase.  The same unit cannot be picked to benefit from this command ability more than once per hero phase."

The last sentence was added later with the errata and makes it sound like it can be used in any hero phase.  I don't think this was the intention when GW added this sentence to the scroll, but I was just wondering how everyone else was playing it.

I wouldnt trust the app. The app also says that Avatar of khaine has Rend -2 on its torrent of blood attacks. 

App is written by people and sometimes make mistakes. No change on the GW site warscroll

I mean If someone can prove me wrong, id love it. I would be very happy to use that ability in any hero phase

 

[Ser_namron]

21 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

Things I didnt know that I do now:

1: Nagash heals 5 units for 3 damage at the beginning of each turn
2: Nagash gives his army rerolls of 1 for armour saves
3: the free scenery can give a unit no run/only 1d6 charge. this cripples Gotrek. 

The heals in OBR are mean enough without nagash, and now im glad i've never seen him in an OBR list...yet lol.  Even rerolls of 1 are insanely good for OBR, like holy ******. 

i too have had Gotrek slowed by the nexus ( literally the most ****** piece of terrain in this game that could easily be a couple hundred point model with how much utility it has) and he was made absolutely useless on his stumpy legs. Luckily its ONLY on a 4+.... But ya, daisy chain the units or keep Gotrek outside of 18. Easier said than done though when they get to place it right in the middle of the board. 

[jhamslam]

49 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

The heals in OBR are mean enough without nagash, and now im glad i've never seen him in an OBR list...yet lol.  Even rerolls of 1 are insanely good for OBR, like holy ******. 

i too have had Gotrek slowed by the nexus ( literally the most ****** piece of terrain in this game that could easily be a couple hundred point model with how much utility it has) and he was made absolutely useless on his stumpy legs. Luckily its ONLY on a 4+.... But ya, daisy chain the units or keep Gotrek outside of 18. Easier said than done though when they get to place it right in the middle of the board. 

i actually really liked the LVO rule on this. They pretty much said you cant put that thing in the center, it has to be in a "quadrant" more or less. Made that terrain much less oppressive that way

[Ser_namron]

4 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

i actually really liked the LVO rule on this. They pretty much said you cant put that thing in the center, it has to be in a "quadrant" more or less. Made that terrain much less oppressive that way

Oh i didnt know this was a thing, i'd love that to be a standard but unless the TO says so the thing gets to be put down anywhere...because GW REALLLLLLLLLLLY wanted to sell some plastic. 

Going on a  bit of a rant here lol, but that thing is so ****** overpowered for a free terrian piece its criminal. 

Goes down BEFORE terrain, so normal restrictions dont apply ( 3" from terrain 1" from objectives) 
Requires NO interaction from your army. 
has 4 AMAZING abilities. -1 to hit a unit WITHIN 18" on a 4+ ( might be 2+) / cant run and only charge 1 d6 to a unit Wholly within 18" on a 4+ / 36" range 1 MW on a 2+ / give a caster -1 unbind/cast/dispell WITHIN 36" on a ****** 2+ . 
Literally any of those abilities alone would have made it a great terrain piece, but nah give them all 4, on the largest terrain feature in the game, with mostly WITHIN ranges up to 36 ****** inches. 

And lets talk about the flavor ( because im tilted lol). In lore, they build these things as they prepare for a siege on a city, they dont just exist and people put buuildings around them. But nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh GW didnt want OBR to play by the regular mechanics of the game like every other army, best set this ****** thing up before terrain. 

Seriously this thing is borderline criminal. At the VERY LEAST they should need a hero to operate the damn thing.  And to bring it back to DOK, 3/4 of those abilities can reallllllly ****** you over ( the 1 MW could ****** you for sure, but we got some noice saves). 

Rant over >:D 

[jhamslam]

10 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

Oh i didnt know this was a thing, i'd love that to be a standard but unless the TO says so the thing gets to be put down anywhere...because GW REALLLLLLLLLLLY wanted to sell some plastic. 

Going on a  bit of a rant here lol, but that thing is so ****** overpowered for a free terrian piece its criminal. 

Goes down BEFORE terrain, so normal restrictions dont apply ( 3" from terrain 1" from objectives) 
Requires NO interaction from your army. 
has 4 AMAZING abilities. -1 to hit a unit WITHIN 18" on a 4+ ( might be 2+) / cant run and only charge 1 d6 to a unit Wholly within 18" on a 4+ / 36" range 1 MW on a 2+ / give a caster -1 unbind/cast/dispell WITHIN 36" on a ****** 2+ . 
Literally any of those abilities alone would have made it a great terrain piece, but nah give them all 4, on the largest terrain feature in the game, with mostly WITHIN ranges up to 36 ****** inches. 

And lets talk about the flavor ( because im tilted lol). In lore, they build these things as they prepare for a siege on a city, they dont just exist and people put buuildings around them. But nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh GW didnt want OBR to play by the regular mechanics of the game like every other army, best set this ****** thing up before terrain. 

Seriously this thing is borderline criminal. At the VERY LEAST they should need a hero to operate the damn thing.  And to bring it back to DOK, 3/4 of those abilities can reallllllly ****** you over ( the 1 MW could ****** you for sure, but we got some noice saves). 

Rant over >:D 

you also forgot, its an obstacle. Meaning if they have all their models in a unit just touching the terrain and theyre closer to their terrain than you are, then theyre in cover. 
Because lol why not

[Chumphammer]

Idea I am having atm to use in a mixed arms small units (bar sneks)

2 versions are:

List 1:

Hag Narr
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood: General, Devoted, Blessing
Bloodwrack Medusa: Shadowstone, Mindrazor
Bloodwrack Medusa: Mindrazor
HagQueen: Catachism
10 Witch Aelves with Daggers
10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers
10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers
20 Blood Sisters
20 Shadow Warriors
3 Scourgerunner Chariots
5 Khinari Heartrenders

11 Drops. 3 Assassin Units with shooting/rend (2 deep strike)
2 Casts, 3 dispels. 2nd MR in case one dies. Mainly in for double stare VS big blocks. 
1 Witch Brew, 2 unit buffs
1 big unit of Sneks for the brew but a target


List 2:

Hag Narr
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood: General, Devoted, Blessing
Bloodwrack Medusa: Shadowstone, Mindrazor
HagQueen: Catachism
HagQueen: Crimson rejuvenation or sacrament of blood to allow 2nd chance to make Avatar mv turn 2
10 Witch Aelves with Daggers
10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers
10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers
10 Blood Sisters
10 Blood Sisters
20 Shadow Warriors
3 Scourgerunner Chariots
Avatar of Khaine

12 Drops. 2 Assassin Units with shooting/rend (1 deep strike)
1 Cast, 2 dispels
2 Witch Brew, 3 unit buffs. no large unit target as sneks in 2 units both with brew
Avatar can throw out some big hitting with MR (since he is LD10, +1 from Cauldron) so then he is 4x 3+/3+ Rend 3 4 Damage. Even his shooting can help. He is movement 9 so can catch up if he misses a turn of Mv

Edited February 21, 2020 by Chumphammer

[Graywater]

2 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

Idea I am having atm to use in a mixed arms small units (bar sneks)

2 versions are:

List 1:

Hag Narr
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood: General, Devoted, Blessing
Bloodwrack Medusa: Shadowstone, Mindrazor
Bloodwrack Medusa: Mindrazor
HagQueen: Catachism
10 Witch Aelves with Daggers
10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers
10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers
20 Blood Sisters
20 Shadow Warriors
3 Scourgerunner Chariots
5 Khinari Heartrenders

11 Drops. 3 Assassin Units with shooting/rend (2 deep strike)
2 Casts, 3 dispels. 2nd MR in case one dies. Mainly in for double stare VS big blocks. 
1 Witch Brew, 2 unit buffs
1 big unit of Sneks for the brew but a target


List 2:

Hag Narr
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood: General, Devoted, Blessing
Bloodwrack Medusa: Shadowstone, Mindrazor
HagQueen: Catachism
HagQueen: Crimson rejuvenation or sacrament of blood to allow 2nd chance to make Avatar mv turn 2
10 Witch Aelves with Daggers
10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers
10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers
10 Blood Sisters
10 Blood Sisters
20 Shadow Warriors
3 Scourgerunner Chariots
Avatar of Khaine

12 Drops. 2 Assassin Units with shooting/rend (1 deep strike)
1 Cast, 2 dispels
2 Witch Brew, 3 unit buffs. no large unit target as sneks in 2 units both with brew
Avatar can throw out some big hitting with MR (since he is LD10, +1 from Cauldron) so then he is 4x 3+/3+ Rend 3 4 Damage. Even his shooting can help. He is movement 9 so can catch up if he misses a turn of Mv

How do you rate shadow warriors vs the scourgerunners? I'm looking at them to possibly replace my heartrenders in my current build. The drop in factor of the heartrenders/shadow warriors seems good, but the scourgerunners just seem so effective. Definitely seem to be better suited for that "assassin" position. But do you think they're worth losing that deep strike threat? My concern with 1 unit of each is it's just not enough; 1 unit wont do the job needed, so they're both wasted. But that's just my theorizing. What has been your experience?

[Chumphammer]

4 minutes ago, Graywater said:

How do you rate shadow warriors vs the scourgerunners? I'm looking at them to possibly replace my heartrenders in my current build. The drop in factor of the heartrenders/shadow warriors seems good, but the scourgerunners just seem so effective. Definitely seem to be better suited for that "assassin" position. But do you think they're worth losing that deep strike threat? My concern with 1 unit of each is it's just not enough; 1 unit wont do the job needed, so they're both wasted. But that's just my theorizing. What has been your experience?

Not run it yet. I thought about the 2x3 scourgerunners but I also like the flexibility of the shadow warriors (I also only have 3 lion chariots painted to convert)

Having it split gives me options rather than starting with both units on the board. I like to have options and having the shadow warriors means i can pop them up when needed, even having the heartrenders just come down to cap obj. I am swinging towards the 1st as it gives me a lot of flexibility 

 

[Graywater]

5 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Not run it yet. I thought about the 2x3 scourgerunners but I also like the flexibility of the shadow warriors (I also only have 3 lion chariots painted to convert)

Having it split gives me options rather than starting with both units on the board. I like to have options and having the shadow warriors means i can pop them up when needed, even having the heartrenders just come down to cap obj. I am swinging towards the 1st as it gives me a lot of flexibility 

 

Out of the 2, I like the first one better because I dont rate the avatar on it's own compared to other units we have available to us. I also would rather have 1 unit of 20 snakes than 2 units of 10. My concern with it is you are only posing 1 real threatening unit to your opponent. If they can take care of the single snake unit, you dont have much to really back it up with.

[Chumphammer]

26 minutes ago, Graywater said:

Out of the 2, I like the first one better because I dont rate the avatar on it's own compared to other units we have available to us. I also would rather have 1 unit of 20 snakes than 2 units of 10. My concern with it is you are only posing 1 real threatening unit to your opponent. If they can take care of the single snake unit, you dont have much to really back it up with.

It isnt often someone can take on the snakes so easily, especially if i dont have to split my buffs. I am only losing out on 20 SOS and for that I am getting some good shooting output to support. I found that medusas can be so good at helping to clear out large mobs. It helps a lot vs things like 60 man mobs of gitzz with - to hit