Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

Other than Hunter Spam with Hurricanum (outside of Sylvaneth Allegiance so that you can minimise the amount of Battleline and maximise the pew pew), which you're not doing, I don't think you need to worry.

There are competitive Sylvaneth lists, but few/none of them are such that they will not give your opponent a game (as distinct from shooting off all the key pieces of an army in turn one).

One difficulty is that people who haven't read the Battletome or the Warscrolls (or an illustrated guide to the army such as is on the Warhammer Community website) will often get kerbstomped because they simply don't know what to do and what not to do (e.g. it's often better to stand outside the wood doing literally nothing than to charge into the Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes behind Dryads); and then complain about balance.

I'm perhaps rather biased, although I seem to be better at beating Sylvaneth than playing with them.

Be lucky.

[Aezeal]

10 minutes ago, Nico said:

Other than Hunter Spam with Hurricanum (outside of Sylvaneth Allegiance so that you can minimise the amount of Battleline and maximise the pew pew), which you're not doing, I don't think you need to worry.

There are competitive Sylvaneth lists, but few/none of them are such that they will not give your opponent a game (as distinct from shooting off all the key pieces of an army in turn one).

One difficulty is that people who haven't read the Battletome or the Warscrolls (or an illustrated guide to the army such as is on the Warhammer Community website) will often get kerbstomped because they simply don't know what to do and what not to do (e.g. it's often better to stand outside the wood doing literally nothing than to charge into the Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes behind Dryads); and then complain about balance.

I'm perhaps rather biased, although I seem to be better at beating Sylvaneth than playing with them.

Be lucky.

Yeah attacking dryads in woods with troop hitting on 5+ but wounding on 3+ is one of those things you do only once

One of my opponents - the one I play most - knows my army now. He brings some stuff which just works against my army: belekor (ignores rend, has a rend 2 sword) and other rend 2 stuff to counter my treelord. A chimera and a hell cannon so he can pretty easily kill Drycha turn one with mortal woundsetc etc. The lack of bodies we have also means in some scenarios he has an advantage.

[Nico]

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belekor (ignores rend, has a rend 2 sword

Makes your [Durthu][Alarielle][6 Hunters] derp for a whole Battleround. Amazing! Also two unbinds from memory.

I completely agree - there are plenty of units off the beaten track which really hurt Sylvaneth. Nagash is horrendous vs Sylvaneth for example. Arkhan is exceptionally good vs them too and obviously far cheaper. -1 to hit debuffs really hurt too (as almost the whole army hits on 4+).

If you're opponent is taking a Hellcannon, then the gloves are really off. #CannotBelieveThoseAreStillAThing #OneCompendiumUnitThatAddsNothingToTheGame.

 

[Semicomp]

I just thought it was funny because i apparently had a super competitive list that apparently was OP for 3 places of power (the scenario we played). Even though i only had one hero who could stand in combat. I think they just misplayed because they attacked my treelord with a 2+ save rerolling 1's instead of my defenseless mage and wych. As well as bein salty that they couldn't do anythin to the treelord and TLA. But like that's just my opinion on what happened 

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

Makes your [Durthu][Alarielle][6 Hunters] derp for a whole Battleround. Amazing! Also two unbinds from memory.

I completely agree - there are plenty of units off the beaten track which really hurt Sylvaneth. Nagash is horrendous vs Sylvaneth for example. Arkhan is exceptionally good vs them too and obviously far cheaper. -1 to hit debuffs really hurt too (as almost the whole army hits on 4+).

If you're opponent is taking a Hellcannon, then the gloves are really off. #CannotBelieveThoseAreStillAThing #OneCompendiumUnitThatAddsNothingToTheGame.

 

Yeah Hellcannon, Chimeara and Belakor in 1500 points wasn't nice. I actually only lost the game because he fled the combat with he (former) unit of 20 chaos warrior I'd engaged with Drycha and 5 revenants.( 2 rounds of Drycha shooting and 2 rounds of enraged combat was kiliing them (and I use regrowth on Drycha and gnarlroot spell on the revs)) HE FLED with THEM running 6 in addition to normal move. PAST (and when I say PAST I mean right through both my units fighting him to the objective in my backfield (4 points). Silly that it's allowed..   I read the rules a few times but had to admit.. it's legal.

EXCEPT: and I only thought of this 2 days after the game --> you can't retreat from gnarlroot (and thus household) revenants. (I never payed household attention.. it's just a tax for gnarlroot usually).

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Semicomp said:

I just thought it was funny because i apparently had a super competitive list that apparently was OP for 3 places of power (the scenario we played). Even though i only had one hero who could stand in combat. I think they just misplayed because they attacked my treelord with a 2+ save rerolling 1's instead of my defenseless mage and wych. As well as bein salty that they couldn't do anythin to the treelord and TLA. But like that's just my opinion on what happened 

They should've killed the 2 5 wound guys and taken one objective from the first turn... would've been a win if that hero survived.

My goblin opponent with a general (5 wounds) and 2 shamen ( 4 wounds) wasn't happy with 3 places of power last game  every character even approaching a scoring point was shot or magiced to death.

[Nico]

Retreating onto objectives is a key strategy in AoS. One of my favourites.

The No Retreat is quite a big deal given the 35/36 save of the Ancient vs -1 rend - @Lez has put this to good use.

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

I actually only lost the game because he fled the combat with he (former) unit of 20 chaos warrior I'd engaged with Drycha and 5 revenants.

In a gnarlroot list? They shouldn't be able to retreat from the revenants since they're part of the household battalion. 

My bad. lol I just saw your edit. And so had to make an edit of my own. 

[Semicomp]

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

They should've killed the 2 5 wound guys and taken one objective from the first turn... would've been a win if that hero survived.

My goblin opponent with a general (5 wounds) and 2 shamen ( 4 wounds) wasn't happy with 3 places of power last game  every character even approaching a scoring point was shot or magiced to death.

Honestly what happened to your goblin opponent should've happened to me haha. They had 2 mortarchs but instead drowned my TLA and treelord in ghouls and skellies (skeletons). Idk, they should've won. They had bout 7 heroes and 2 combat heroes in the mortachs but didn't do anythin with them. They just drowned my 2 treelords in chaff so they never died. Which led to me winnin and apparently lookin in OP

[Aezeal]

10 hours ago, Nico said:

Retreating onto objectives is a key strategy in AoS. One of my favourites.

The No Retreat is quite a big deal given the 35/36 save of the Ancient vs -1 rend - @Lez has put this to good use.

It's a stupid rule. I know it might not be easy to put into words but it shouldn't be allowed 

[Nico]

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It's a stupid rule. I know it might not be easy to put into words but it shouldn't be allowed

I don't see why it's stupid (other than as a holdover of 8th Edition which I never played). In particular - it's exactly what flying units would do on the basis that the objectives are paramount ("I'm off, catch me if you can!"); and does have downsides of not being able to shoot/charge (unless you're a pro, i.e. Skaven ). It would also be very hard to define a direction of retreat in a game as fluid as AoS.

[Aezeal]

9 hours ago, Nico said:

I don't see why it's stupid (other than as a holdover of 8th Edition which I never played). In particular - it's exactly what flying units would do on the basis that the objectives are paramount ("I'm off, catch me if you can!"); and does have downsides of not being able to shoot/charge (unless you're a pro, i.e. Skaven ). It would also be very hard to define a direction of retreat in a game as fluid as AoS.

It's what well organized FLYING units could and should do.. sure... but having foot slogging infantry "retreat" THROUGH enemy lines, moving OVER my models which is NEVER allowed except in this case it's even worse when it leads to taking a tactical advantage while they are supposedly fleeing (panic.. help etc) ... that is just idiotic.

[Mirage8112]

but having foot slogging infantry "retreat" THROUGH enemy lines, moving OVER my models which is NEVER allowed except in this case

Wait wait wait. Why is it allowed in this case? Retreating models shouldn't be able to move through enemy units (unless there is sufficient space between models). They are still subject to the normal rules for movement (coherency not within 3" of an enemy unit ect) in fact, other foot slogging units should be easily able to cut off a retreat by blocking their escape route.


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[Aezeal]

39 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

Wait wait wait. Why is it allowed in this case? Retreating models shouldn't be able to move through enemy units (unless there is sufficient space between models). They are still subject to the normal rules for movement (coherency not within 3" of an enemy unit ect) in fact, other foot slogging units should be easily able to cut off a retreat by blocking their escape route.


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Hmmm well I was against it but couldn't see it wasn't allowed back then... can't really find it now I'll admit. The retreat rule doesn't seem to impose any restrictions except ending more than 3" away from enemies..I guess that is how he said it and I ended up not seeing any ral objections.. Not within 3 "of enemy unit is hard when you start there (which is needed to be able to retreat at all).

[Mirage8112]

Hmmm well I was against it but couldn't see it wasn't allowed back then... can't really find it now I'll admit. The retreat rule doesn't seem to impose any restrictions except ending more than 3" away from enemies..I guess that is how he said it and I ended up not seeing any ral objections.. Not within 3 "of enemy unit is hard when you start there (which is needed to be able to retreat at all).

A retreat move is a normal move, made on the movement phase. The only difference between it and a regular move is that the moving model starts within 3" of an enemy and must finish not within 3" of an enemy. All the other restrictions apply.

Sounds like between that and forgetting the no retreat rule, you got hosed that game.


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[Aezeal]

14 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

A retreat move is a normal move, made on the movement phase. The only difference between it and a regular move is that the moving model starts within 3" of an enemy and must finish not within 3" of an enemy. All the other restrictions apply.

Sounds like between that and forgetting the no retreat rule, you got hosed that game.


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Guess so... dammit. Got a small tourney (in the shop, probably only a handful of player) coming up.. hope I remember the rules better then

[Mirage8112]

Guess so... dammit. Got a small tourney (in the shop, probably only a handful of player) coming up.. hope I remember the rules better then [emoji3]

To be fair, there are a lot of rules to remember.


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[Tommm]

On 30/03/2017 at 3:26 PM, Nico said:

This is exaggerated or simply wrong in the UK at least. A few events have been won by Kurnoth Hunter spam plus Hurricanums (Alliance last year by Rufio), another event more recently. I'm not aware of a Sylvaneth allegiance list winning a significant event in the UK (do correct me if there's an example I've missed); and more confident that an Alarielle list hasn't done so. They often do well - placing highly - but seemingly fall at the last hurdle/hit one bad match up etc.. The existence of DoT is going to amplify the bad match up risk.

I won Alliance 2 with the list on Page 3 here: http://baddice.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/alliance_2017_army_lists-1.pdf

Nothing too exciting. 20 Dryads and the revenants secured scenarios. Durthu and the scythes did all the work. 

Played against Hammerstrike, Celestial Vindicators Hammerstrike and Disciples of Tzeentch. Always amuses me when I hear peoples Durthu flubs combat. Hand of Glory turns him into a super-reliable lawnmower.

[Aezeal]

How do you think you'd have done against that Kunning Ruk / Beastclaw list?

[Nico]

Good work Tom! 

Sylvaneth are in huge trouble vs Khorne with their infinite range guaranteed unbind. Once per phase, but that will be Hand of Glory, Shield of Thorns, Mystic Shield or Regrowth out of the window.

[Shorewood]

9 hours ago, Nico said:

Good work Tom! 

Sylvaneth are in huge trouble vs Khorne with their infinite range guaranteed unbind. Once per phase, but that will be Hand of Glory, Shield of Thorns, Mystic Shield or Regrowth out of the window.

They can do that?  Holy guacamoli!  

[Tommm]

On 01/04/2017 at 2:28 PM, Aezeal said:

How do you think you'd have done against that Kunning Ruk / Beastclaw list?

I've lost to the 2 thundertusk Rukk version in early practice, but won 19-1 against the 3 thundertusk Goblin version at the Sheffield Slaughter.

I think you really require a scenario you can stall and just not deploy on the table so that your important bits can't get shot, get some woods planted and charge asap. It's a tad scary starting with just a Wych and Loremaster on the table, but seeing as you're guaranteed turn 1 you'll always get another wood down at the very least.

I think against this type of list is one of the few times I would use the spirit paths and deploy off the table - rather than using an Acorn in deployment to shuffle because of thier ranged output.

[HadrielCaine]

I came in 4th with Sylvaneth at London Calling this weekend. 2nd Place painting too. Thanks @Tom Loyn & @Nico for organising.

Here's what I ran:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth

Leaders
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri 
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri 
Spirit of Durthu (400)
- General
- Trait: Realm Walker - Sylvaneth
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour 

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatswords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatbows
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatbows
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (220)

Battalions
Free Spirits (40)
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Total: 2000/2000
 

Having tried out a few of the SCGT scenarios last week I swapped Generalship from the Ancient to Durthu. I decided to take Realm Walker over immunity to rend, and I'm really glad I did. A lot of the scenarios rely on capturing and controlling. With one drop and a wild wood dropped in the middle it was then a simple cast of Verdant Blessing and a 4+ for Realm Walker for Durthu to have a first turn charge. People weren't expecting it and he got in to combat round 1 in 4/5 games and won me 3 of those. Even if he wiffs he pins units in place and allows the rest of the army to score and shoot freely.

The two losses came in round 2 vs. SCE on Silver Tower. On table 2. I really dislike this scenario for Sylvaneth, especially gnarlroot. Its hard to lock down all three locations. I managed 2/3 and was way up on kill points when the tower moved to the only one I hadn't covered and SCE were able to walk in after I wiffed to kill them out.

The other loss was round 5 vs Jack Armstrong on the Altar of Azyr scenario, which is great. I had a chance to charge first turn and get to the altar with the Ancient and Branchwych. I also positioned my central wildwood in such a way as to keep the Stonehorns out. 

Jack is an excellent player so I thought I'd gamble to get the best chance of killing through the cunnin rukk and put Durthu within 3" of Mystical (I lost the deployment roll- jack rolled 2... I got 1, this happened for T2 prio as well...) of course I rolled a 1 and was tabled by end of battle round 3. I think I made the right call. 5/6 of the time I actually had a chance to beat the Master! But it wasn't to be and I missed out on the podium and best in allegiance as a result.

Great weekend and I played well with my list. I'm now coming up with something a bit less netlisty that I'll share later on!

A

[Aezeal]

So you played behemoths couldn't pass forests (the trees themselves ofc)?

[HadrielCaine]

I did indeed! As per the SCGT pack