Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Aezeal]

Actually the instakill on TLA was very usefull against a stonehorn. I got him down to 3 wounds remaining but instead of dealing another 5-6 wounds I just rolled a 4 and no damage reduction needed.. just POOOF gone. But I guess it's somewhat niche use to use in your calculations

[xanderhansen]

Nice math swarmofseals, I really enjoy all the math and theorycraft in this game...

But now to the question at hand. When you use gnarlroot wargrove, there is something I the sentence in seekers of knowledge; "a gnarlroot TLA, branchwych or branchwraith is allowed to attempt to cast one extraordinary spell in each of their hero phases, and unbind one extra spell in each enemy hero phase".

I have always read this as every TLA, branchwych and branchwraith each have one extra spell.

But now, me and some gaming friends looked and talked about that sentence, and actually came to another conclusion. It comes down to the "or" after branchwych. As we see it, it's only one of the 3 there is allowed to cast one spell more, and not all og them.

Can anyone pls clarify this?

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[Mirage8112]

This was clarified a number of pages back. Each may cast an extra spell, the "or" here is inclusive rather than exclusive.


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[xanderhansen]

Thanks mate, I will try to find the post

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[xanderhansen]

I can't find the answer to my question. Was it clarified by any official gw member? Or is it just the general view that it work that way? Hope you can help me out here mirage.

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[Aezeal]

21 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Thanks for the numbers, it's basicly what I thought already but it's always good to KNOW instead of just relying on hunches.

Having said that I'll be building a list now.

I used to play 1500 points and me and my most regular opponent decided that 2000 points probably wouldn't be much more troops (at least not on my side) and maybe even a shorter game if I don't use a gnarlroot list (the hero/magic phases annoy him).

So gonna build a 2K list  have limited models at the moment.

I think the core will have to be

CORE (battleline + musthaves) 

- 2x20 dryads

-  5 tree revenants ( I'm not a fan of revenants but I don't have more dryads I think (if I even get 40 without placeholders) so my ONLY 5 treerevenants will have to go there.. and they CAN be usefull

- 2 x 3 hunters (my only hunters - swords and scythes - as said somewhere above or in another topic: while bow sniping certainly has it;s uses I seem to loose to much points early in the game - turn 1 and 2 for sure and sometimes even turn 3 before I've killed enough (my stuff survives) and can start scoring myself.

So that is 700 points with battleline covered (and no more dryads, revenants or hunters available). The problem next is what to do with the remaining points. I've promised not to go gnarlroot but I would like to have another battalion... but I won't be able to do free spirits (at all, not enough hunters) or forest folk.

RESERVES:

I have 3 treekin and could use 3 alternative treekin if I need more troops (2 x 100) , I also have a Durthu (400), a TLA (300), Drycha (280),  Alarielle (620) and 2 wyches. (I will also get a loremaster for my gnarlroot list but I doubt it's worth sacrificing the allegiance in a non gnarlroot list without a hurricanum and a loremaster... and even then it's probably not worth it.) 

Options would be

1. Alarielle, Drycha and Durthu (1300 points in 3 models - only 38 wounds), no TLA general, only 1 artefact but also only 1 target for the artefact. I guess both Alarielle and Drycha would take regrowth with alarielle mostly casting shield/bolt and her damage spell and drycha healing till she dies (or shield/bold whatever A isn't casting)

2. Durthu, TLA, Drycha, 6 treekin, wych: TLA general but still only 1 artefact which really makes either Durthu or TLA quite a bit more vulnerable.

3. Big A, Big D and TLA (yes that is too much points.. but could be done if I delete 10 dryads and take 3 Treekin). Still only 1 artefact unless I somehow get a batallion instead of the treekin.. but don't see how). TLA general MIGHT be worth loosing a few dryads... however drycha's ability to clear a unit of 60 goblins in 1 shooting phase does have it's uses.

4 Alarielle, Durthy and 2x 3 treekin. (similar to 1 but no drycha: gives more targets for A's healing.. but not sure lacking Drycha's unique talents is worth that.

5. .... something with another battallion to give both TLA and Durthu oaken armor seems nice.. but can't really figure it out yet. Even better would be 3 artefacts so a wych could get the acorn for more 100% relilable forests to increase D's offence and buff dryads ( but I doubt I can fit 2 batallions in if I'm not using gnarlroot)

6. something else entirely.

So suggestions what I should pick and what 5 or 6 could be?

I guess my next buys should be either a hurricanum for a gnarlroot list once my opponent has had some rest from gnarlroot or more hunters (to complete freespirits batallion which seems cheap at 40 points for needed movement and an artefact.)

Any suggestions?

 

[xanderhansen]

No answer to my question regarding gnarlroot and the 2 spells for each for wizards? I can't see or find any official clarification anywhere.

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[Aezeal]

11 minutes ago, xanderhansen said:

No answer to my question regarding gnarlroot and the 2 spells for each for wizards? I can't see or find any official clarification anywhere.

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I just play 2 spells each, it's just how I read it.

[Ratatatata]

So, any Sylvanethplayers doing the SCGT? I´ve watched the stream all weekend - only thing I've managed to do as I've got a terrible man flu - and I neither saw nor heard anything about Sylvaneth. Is everybody on another bandwagon or did I miss something?  

If the games from the top tables is taken for measure I´d say it´s time to gear up with lists that can tackle Skyfire- spam. 

[xanderhansen]

It seems like we really need an answer from gw on this issue, so we know what's intended.

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[xanderhansen]

Now for a new question [emoji6]

 

If you pay the 40 points to get an sylvaneth wyldwood, can you then set it up the same way you setup allegiance wood before play? Meaning you can setup 2 wyldwood before the game start.

 

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[Kaylethia]

15 minutes ago, xanderhansen said:

 

If you pay the 40 points to get an sylvaneth wyldwood, can you then set it up the same way you setup allegiance wood before play? Meaning you can setup 2 wyldwood before the game start

In essence, no. There are wargroves that can let you set up two at the start, but otherwise you have to summon them with a spell, ability or artefact. And as long as your army is Sylvaneth allegiance, they cost zero points, the forty points are there for order allegiance.

[Aezeal]

38 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

In essence, no. There are wargroves that can let you set up two at the start, but otherwise you have to summon them with a spell, ability or artefact. And as long as your army is Sylvaneth allegiance, they cost zero points, the forty points are there for order allegiance.

Wow.. you may actually be right.. but I didn't think of ti that way. I just want them to give the woodelves a soemwhat regular forest for like 10 points... or something that sllightly gives the woodelves and edge for more points (but getting a codex and battaltions where they are free would be better :D)

On the one hand I'd say that IF you put them in your army list you should be able to deploy them as any warscroll (in your own deployment zone...

on the other hand.. that is CLEARLY not what is intended for the vortex which you have to summon (and the fact one of the allegiance abilities lets you place one SEEMS to imply it's not the intention either ... though you could say that it let's you place one ANYWHERE before deployment and doesn't really say anythign about placing this specific warscroll during deployment. But... then you could put a dozen of them in your zone... since they are free anyway.

But to get back to that first hand... where does it say you CANNOT deploy them as any other warscroll (having points and being in your army list).

 

[xanderhansen]

Buy why can you then spend the 40 points on them? If I use the points on the scenery I must be able to deploy it? It's just a question on when I can deploy them.

 

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[Aezeal]

2 minutes ago, xanderhansen said:

Buy why can you then spend the 40 points on them? If I use the points on the scenery I must be able to deploy it? It's just a question on when I can deploy them.

 

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According to "their" theory (which is generally accepted to be GW's intention I'd like to note) I'd say you are NOT paying 40 points for it... you put 40 points in the summoning pool. You can summon anythign with it.. IF you have a summoner. 

I still don't see  where it says you CAN"T place it durign regular deployment ((I've not really looked.. so maybe someone with actual knowledge will give us the lines where it says you can't. Anyway no reason to say you can deploy it before game though.. nothing says you could).

[Cerve]

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

According to "their" theory (which is generally accepted to be GW's intention I'd like to note) I'd say you are NOT paying 40 points for it... you put 40 points in the summoning pool. You can summon anythign with it.. IF you have a summoner. 

I still don't see  where it says you CAN"T place it durign regular deployment ((I've not really looked.. so maybe someone with actual knowledge will give us the lines where it says you can't. Anyway no reason to say you can deploy it before game though.. nothing says you could).

 

One thing must be writed to be possible to do. Is non that you can't see anything that will PREVENT TO deploy theme. You must find something that let you ABLE TO do that.

And there's nothing about that. 

 

Basically, the only way to bring a Wyldwood into the table with an Order Allegiance is with an TLA and his ability. And you must pay (before) for any Wyldwood you will set up in this way.

[Kaylethia]

I think the relevant part of the rules are "a Sylvaneth Wyldwood is a terrain feature", and the deployment rules where it states that players alternate setting up their units. The wyldwood is not a unit, so you wouldn't be able to set it up in deployment.

[swarmofseals]

10 hours ago, Ratatatata said:

So, any Sylvanethplayers doing the SCGT? I´ve watched the stream all weekend - only thing I've managed to do as I've got a terrible man flu - and I neither saw nor heard anything about Sylvaneth. Is everybody on another bandwagon or did I miss something?  

If the games from the top tables is taken for measure I´d say it´s time to gear up with lists that can tackle Skyfire- spam. 

Yeah, I think Sylvaneth might actually be in a position to counter Skyfire spam, but it would be an extremely pointless and unfun list:

Branchwych

20 Dryads

10 Dryads

10 Tree-Revenants

8x3 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Greatbows

 

I did the math on a straight-up shootout between 6 units of Kurnoth Hunters with greatbows and 6 units of Tzaangor Skyfires plus a Tzaangor Shaman. I gave the tzeench guys average destiny dice and let them shoot first and the Kurnoths still wiped the floor with them. I did not consider the likelihood that at least some of the Kurnoths would be in cover either. 

Such a list would be able to outshoot the typical 15-18 skyfires EASILY, and it would also be a nightmare for thundertusk lists and any list relying on any sort of support characters. Not sure if it would work against the longstrike lists as I'm less familiar with the new stormcast rules. 

Honestly I'm a bit surprised that people aren't talking about this sort of list much. You see lists with maybe 6-12 kurnoths frequently but not 24.

Heck, there really isn't much reason to even be Sylvaneth allegiance with this list. You could even go up to 9x3 Kurnoth Hunters by trimming down the leader and battleline with non-Sylvaneth stuff. You can almost get to 10x3 Kurnoths but not quite (20 points over). 

 

 

[Aezeal]

18 skyfires... do they still have stuff to screen them? I'd just charge sword hunters into them and be done with it.

[Cerve]

6 hours ago, Aezeal said:

18 skyfires... do they still have stuff to screen them? I'd just charge sword hunters into them and be done with it.

They can move into the Hero Phase, and they fight pretty well too. That's not so easy

[swarmofseals]

 

6 hours ago, Aezeal said:

18 skyfires... do they still have stuff to screen them? I'd just charge sword hunters into them and be done with it.

 

It depends on the list, but they have 24" range and a 16" flying move so it's pretty unlikely you're going to get to charge them with anything but a VERY fast unit (which we do not have)

 

On 4/21/2017 at 5:07 PM, Aezeal said:

Actually the instakill on TLA was very usefull against a stonehorn. I got him down to 3 wounds remaining but instead of dealing another 5-6 wounds I just rolled a 4 and no damage reduction needed.. just POOOF gone. But I guess it's somewhat niche use to use in your calculations

Ohh for sure it's useful -- I didn't include it because it's basically impossible to factor into the calculations given that it requires a bunch of moving parts to calculate (wounds per model on target, total wounds dealt by attacks on that target, whether other units are also fighting that target etc.)

[Aezeal]

23 minutes ago, Cerve said:

They can move into the Hero Phase, and they fight pretty well too. That's not so easy

Movement is a point ofc.. them fighting.. if we can out shoot them we CERTAINLY out fight them with melee hunters. But yeah.. if we can't catch them it's hard to fight.

[Mirage8112]

10 hours ago, Cerve said:

They can move into the Hero Phase, and they fight pretty well too. That's not so easy

That's only if they are taking the skyshoal coven. It's not part of their normal warscroll abilities so you won't see it in every list. 
 

10 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

It depends on the list, but they have 24" range and a 16" flying move so it's pretty unlikely you're going to get to charge them with anything but a VERY fast unit (which we do not have)

That's not technically true. Between realm root navigation and 2-3 forests on the board, there's not much we can't reach in a single turn. Sure, it relies on a  9" charge (unless your taking a Durthu with realm walker) but if you have 2 units of revenants (and you probably should) 1 of them is quite likely to get get into combat with them. If your running a household formation (and if your taking gnarlroot you already are running household), the skyfires will be unable to retreat and will likely be pinned there; giving you plenty of time to bring something in for CC. 

Even if the revenants die, he'll likely have to waste a turn clearing them. Barring a double turn (and you should be aware of that potential when making this play) he won't be able to get out of combat in time to avoid a charge.

 

19 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Honestly I'm a bit surprised that people aren't talking about this sort of list much. You see lists with maybe 6-12 kurnoths frequently but not 24.

Heck, there really isn't much reason to even be Sylvaneth allegiance with this list. You could even go up to 9x3 Kurnoth Hunters by trimming down the leader and battleline with non-Sylvaneth stuff. You can almost get to 10x3 Kurnoths but not quite (20 points over). 

Not to rain on the parade, but I don't think that list is as competitive as it looks. It's terribly one dimensional. It's basically a gunline army. And while kuroth shooting is good, it's not that good. Put an MSU list on the table with a few multi-wound units that have a 2-3+ save (not that hard to get) and it's over once they cross the board. No forests to teleport to, no way to bring back dead units, very little ability to compete for objectives. 

Sometimes more of a good thing is just "more". 

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

That's only if they are taking the skyshoal coven. It's not part of their normal warscroll abilities so you won't see it in every list. 
 

That's not technically true. Between realm root navigation and 2-3 forests on the board, there's not much we can't reach in a single turn. Sure, it relies on a  9" charge (unless your taking a Durthu with realm walker) but if you have 2 units of revenants (and you probably should) 1 of them is quite likely to get get into combat with them. If your running a household formation (and if your taking gnarlroot you already are running household), the skyfires will be unable to retreat and will likely be pinned there; giving you plenty of time to bring something in for CC. 

Even if the revenants die, he'll likely have to waste a turn clearing them. Barring a double turn (and you should be aware of that potential when making this play) he won't be able to get out of combat in time to avoid a charge.

 

Not to rain on the parade, but I don't think that list is as competitive as it looks. It's terribly one dimensional. It's basically a gunline army. And while kuroth shooting is good, it's not that good. Put an MSU list on the table with a few multi-wound units that have a 2-3+ save (not that hard to get) and it's over once they cross the board. No forests to teleport to, no way to bring back dead units, very little ability to compete for objectives. 

Sometimes more of a good thing is just "more". 

I'd say I'd try a minimum free spirit list with mostly melee hunters and only 2 units of bow hunters before I'd try full bow hunters. Maybe a wych with the acorn and regrowth next to a durthu and 2x revenants, leaving 1200 points for hunters which is only 6 units (and change so you could get a few units of dryads instead of the revenants. 

Just going 3x3 waywatchers and then full hunters (12) without hero's seems less strong. No mystic shield, no healing, no bonus move, no hero's for 3 places, NO forests at all.

[swarmofseals]

@Mirage8112 the strategy that you are suggesting sounds pretty unreliable to me. The skyfires are no slouches in close combat, and there are typically multiple units of them. You're banking on successfully deploying your wyldwoods (a smart opponent will fill area with chaff in anticipation of this to make your life more difficult), then teleporting in with multiple units, making a 9 inch charge, and then counting on them not to get a double turn. It certainly could happen some of the time, but I don't think it realistically makes sword kurnoths a good counter to skyfires. 

Also please note that the list I was suggesting was specifically intended only to be a counter to certain high tier cheese lists that have frequently been terrorizing the top tables at tournaments. It's *certainly* not well balanced or well-suited against more normal opponents. It would be a very unfun list to play with or against.