Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Mirage8112]

5 hours ago, Nico said:

What is more worrying is that it seem that the comp to the Free Spirits is likely to be how GW rules it.... Hopefully, this would be limited to that battalion only (it does have the wording about moving closer to the target unit or Wyldwood to distinguish it from other rules).

The Dreadwood Wargrove on the other hand is clearly the intended (and very expensive) alpha strike option. It shouldn't also be hard nerfed (Sneak Attack) just because Free Spirits is perceived as broken or required too many jumps through the rules.

 

1 hour ago, Paul G said:

Could someone explain the nerfs on Free Spirits and Dreadwood for me? Or point me to somewhere that does? Thanks!

 

1 hour ago, Forestreveries said:

Basically, when it comes to Free Spirits you may only move normally in the Hero Phase, even though it is "as if it was the Movement Phase".

This means you can't use abilities like Navigate Realmroots or Forest Spirits for the extra movement.

This as far as I know is only a house rule for the Blood and Glory event at present.

I only ever played it that way anyway to be fair.

I'm pretty confident that the dreadwood battalion is intended to work with the navigate realm roots/ hidden enclaves ability; especially since GW has ruled that "as if it were the movement phase" means any way you can move in the movement phase you can use in regards to other abilities (re: FAQ on rampaging destroyers).

Ben specifically noted that that the navigate the realm roots ability states it has to be used at "the start of the movement phase" and used that as his justification for the nerf, while completely ignoring the fact that the rules use the same wording for retreating and GW specifically ruled that destruction's "rampaging destroyers" move (which occurs in the hero phase) can be used to retreat. 

Since the freespirits battalion shares the same wording as "sneak attack" and "rampaging destroyers" ("as if it were the movement phase"), and GW has already ruled that if a move is made ‘as if it were the movement phase’, you can move any way you normally can in the movement phase, and both navigate realmroots and the forest spirits move occur in the movement phase, I'm reasonably sure navigate the realmroots is intended to work with the freespirits battalion as well. 

[Paul G]

Ah sounds like Rampaging Destroyers FAQ sets a good prescedent then! Thanks


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[Knight of Ruin]

What about this for 2000 Winterleaf?

 

Leaders
Branchwraith (100)
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri 
Spirit of Durthu (400)
- General
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 

Units
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x 6 (360)
- Scythes
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows

Battalions
Winterleaf Wargrove (100)
Free Spirits (40)
Forest Folk (60)

Scenery
Sylvaneth Wyldwood - Sylvaneth Allegiance (0)

Total: 2000/2000

 

Just unsure what spells, this list was just about the movement shenanigans. This can be further boosted by making Durthy General and giving him the Realm Walker trait, so he can charge after a redeploy on a 4+. Slightly risky, but can pay off quite well.

This way:

- I can deploy to a lot of different things: Archways, Wyldwoods, table edges anywhere on the table, or just in my own deployment zone.

- I can Re-deploy to any Archway, Wyldwood or table edge with pretty much anything in the army in any of my movement phases.

- I can Move my Hunters in the hero phase. 

- Have reliable ways of putting out more Wyldwoods.

 

To me, this seems i can play heavily on a denied flank idea, which can be quite useful to the slower armies out there. What do you think?

 

Or this for Gnarlroot:

 

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour 
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri 
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 
Drycha Hamadreth (280)

Units
Dryads x 20 (240)
Kurnoth Hunters x 6 (360)
- Scythes
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Tree Kin x 3 (100)

Battalions
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Scenery
Sylvaneth Wyldwood - Sylvaneth Allegiance (0)

Total: 1980/2000

 

Yes i know it doesnt have in an order wizard. Would be most tempted by a loremaster, as im not interested in the model for a Hurricanum, nor investing points in that now  Maybe when i go to a proper tournament one day.

 

Which do you like best?

 

 

[Kindling]

4 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

Forgot to mention they have innate -1 to be hit when near woods (read: always)

This nullifies things such as blight kings exploding attacks and executioners / retributors mortal wounds on 6's.

I thought a roll of 6 was always 6 and 1 was always 1. If not this is great news

[Forestreveries]

I thought a roll of 6 was always 6 and 1 was always 1. If not this is great news [emoji4]

1's are always 1's / fails in matched play. But 6's can be modified up beyond 6's.
There are loads of rules throughout the game that mention rolling "a 6 or more".

That means a 5 with a +2 modifier for example qualifies for any bonus that occur on "a 6 or more"


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Aezeal]

I'd either go 6 greatbows or 0. My experience with 3 of them is that the damage is actually not enough to kill 5 wound heroes in decent armor reliably. Anyone with the same experience?

 

Anyway you could consider adding free spirits to the gnarlroot (delete a wych, drycha and treekin for Durthu. It gives you some alpha strikish (or at least a good change to get the charge) potential to kill whatever you'd other wise shoot with the bows (but not easily behind enemy lines ofc).

[Kindling]

1 hour ago, Forestreveries said:

 

 

1's are always 1's / fails in matched play. But 6's can be modified up beyond 6's.
There are loads of rules throughout the game that mention rolling "a 6 or more".

That means a 5 with a +2 modifier for example qualifies for any bonus that occur on "a 6 or more"


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

I believe requiring a 6 to cause a mortal wound, would always cause a mortal wound on a roll of 6.... + or - modifiers are irrelevant. For example you can't use a +2 to hit modifier to turn a 4 into a mortal wound, nor can you use a -1 to hit modifier to avoid mortal wound on 6.

[scrubyandwells]

9 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

What about this for 2000 Winterleaf?

Leaders
Branchwraith (100)
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri 
Spirit of Durthu (400)
- General
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 

Units
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x 6 (360)
- Scythes
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows

Battalions
Winterleaf Wargrove (100)
Free Spirits (40)
Forest Folk (60)

Scenery
Sylvaneth Wyldwood - Sylvaneth Allegiance (0)

Total: 2000/2000

Just unsure what spells, this list was just about the movement shenanigans. This can be further boosted by making Durthy General and giving him the Realm Walker trait, so he can charge after a redeploy on a 4+. Slightly risky, but can pay off quite well.

This way:

- I can deploy to a lot of different things: Archways, Wyldwoods, table edges anywhere on the table, or just in my own deployment zone.

- I can Re-deploy to any Archway, Wyldwood or table edge with pretty much anything in the army in any of my movement phases.

- I can Move my Hunters in the hero phase. 

- Have reliable ways of putting out more Wyldwoods.

I think your Winterleaf list is pretty interesting. Some things that stand out:

• A strong hero in Durthu + a Forest-Folk-teleporting Branchwraith (w/ Dryads for screen) to help compete in Three Places of Power.
• Acorn and Verdant Blessing (w/ +2 to cast) for Wyldwoods, although I'd put the Acorn on the Branchwraith and Fade-from-View her into either a pre-deployment Wyldwood up-field or a Verdant-Blessing Wyldwood up-field, and then plant the Acorn to get a Wyldwood into your opponent's side of the table. Sometimes you'll have a better opportunity to do this later in the game, which could help with objective scoring, especially objectives you can move away from after controlling.
• 122 wounds, which is pretty good for a Sylvaneth list.
• Four x10 Dryads, which gives you a fair amount of flexibility, including enough to screen Durthu and the 6 Kurnoths with scythes.
• Durthu and 6 scythe Kurnoths gives you two incredibly-powerful combat units that can operate independently, each with screeners to help ensure they're not taking a charge from anything powerful.
  • Of course, Durthu is suspectible to mortal wounds, so you'll have to be careful about how/where you're using him. Good Wyldwood placement can help against mortal-wound-spammers like Thundertusks and Stormfiends.
• 6 greatbow Kurnoths still seem like an auto-include since you so often need a long-range threat (similar to how Russ Veal and Terry Pike often take 2 Warp Lightning Cannons). You can also use them for more than sniping or sitting on an objective in your deployment. They're quite resilient and can work well as additional screeners, etc. I'll often use them as a back-up screening unit for a unit of 6 scythe Kurnoths, especially for the later rounds when the first screening unit has already died. 
• The extra movement you'll have on the Kurnoth will help them get to a Wyldwood checkpoint and in position for a high-probability charge, or in position to take a charge from the comforts of Wyldwood cover. 

[Paul G]

1 hour ago, Kindling said:

I believe requiring a 6 to cause a mortal wound, would always cause a mortal wound on a roll of 6.... + or - modifiers are irrelevant. For example you can't use a +2 to hit modifier to turn a 4 into a mortal wound, nor can you use a -1 to hit modifier to avoid mortal wound on 6.

No, you can and should!

[Kindling]

1 hour ago, Paul G said:

No, you can and should!

So +1 to hit, negates re-roll on a 1 to hit? As after modifiers you never roll 1s.

[Paul G]

2 minutes ago, Kindling said:

So +1 to hit, negates re-roll on a 1 to hit? As after modifiers you never roll 1s.

Not sure about that example, but that doesn't sound right! You can do all the examples in your previous post though!

[Kindling]

1 minute ago, Paul G said:

Not sure about that example, but that doesn't sound right! You can do all the examples in your previous post though!

You can't have one and not the other though.... A mortal wound for a roll of 6 is always a mortal wound regardless of the to hit modifier.

[Paul G]

I see what you mean, maybe one of the other guys can give a bit more info on the +1 to hit. For the hit roll of a mortal wound on a 6, such as Blight Kings, an ability such as Dryads' -1 to hit for being in a wood would negate that ability.

[MidasKiss]

Not sure about that example, but that doesn't sound right! You can do all the examples in your previous post though!

You do all rerolls before modifiers, Scruby dug down into that I'm sure he will chime in soon

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[N_Watson]

44 minutes ago, Kindling said:

You can't have one and not the other though.... A mortal wound for a roll of 6 is always a mortal wound regardless of the to hit modifier.

 

51 minutes ago, Kindling said:

So +1 to hit, negates re-roll on a 1 to hit? As after modifiers you never roll 1s.

 

4 hours ago, Kindling said:

I believe requiring a 6 to cause a mortal wound, would always cause a mortal wound on a roll of 6.... + or - modifiers are irrelevant. For example you can't use a +2 to hit modifier to turn a 4 into a mortal wound, nor can you use a -1 to hit modifier to avoid mortal wound on 6.

In matched play with the rule of 1, a roll of a 1, is always a 1. If you roll a 1 to hit, and have +2, it doesn't count as a 3, as a roll of a 1 is always a fail. This is the rule of one. 

If something does a mortal wound on a 6 or more, you do a roll on a roll of a 6 or more. If you have +1, and roll a 6, your 6 turns into a 7. This generates a mortal wound. If you roll a 5, that turns into a 6. This generates a mortal wound. This is only the case for some that says "On a roll of 6 or more". 

If the scroll says "On the roll of a 6" and you have +1, if you roll a 6, this turns into a 7 and is no longer a 6. 

Does that make sense?

 

[Nico]

Quote

I'm pretty confident that the dreadwood battalion is intended to work with the navigate realm roots/ hidden enclaves ability; especially since GW has ruled that "as if it were the movement phase" means any way you can move in the movement phase you can use in regards to other abilities (re: FAQ on rampaging destroyers).

Ben specifically noted that that the navigate the realm roots ability states it has to be used at "the start of the movement phase" and used that as his justification for the nerf, while completely ignoring the fact that the rules use the same wording for retreating and GW specifically ruled that destruction's "rampaging destroyers" move (which occurs in the hero phase) can be used to retreat. 

Since the freespirits battalion shares the same wording as "sneak attack" and "rampaging destroyers" ("as if it were the movement phase"), and GW has already ruled that if a move is made ‘as if it were the movement phase’, you can move any way you normally can in the movement phase, and both navigate realmroots and the forest spirits move occur in the movement phase, I'm reasonably sure navigate the realmroots is intended to work with the freespirits battalion as well. 

Good spot. Thanks for the clarification. Agree with all of what @MidasKiss and @Forestreveries and @scrubyandwells said above.

I would only add:

The difference (to me) with Free Spirits vs Sneak Attack is that the move towards a piece of Scenery or enemy unit bit. As discussed way way above, it is possible literally to meet this requirement on the basis that on the table is always closer than in the Hidden Enclaves. However, presumably the Free Spirits is perceived as being undercosted if it can do a reliable alpha strike. Brace yourselves for a further FAQ that comps this. What I hope for is that any comp is limited to Free Spirits and doesn't take out (well significantly weaken) Dreadwood as collateral damage.

Quote

In matched play with the rule of 1, a roll of a 1, is always a 1. If you roll a 1 to hit, and have +2, it doesn't count as a 3, as a roll of a 1 is always a fail. This is the rule of one. 

If something does a mortal wound on a 6 or more, you do a roll on a roll of a 6 or more. If you have +1, and roll a 6, your 6 turns into a 7. This generates a mortal wound. If you roll a 5, that turns into a 6. This generates a mortal wound. This is only the case for some that says "On a roll of 6 or more". 

If the scroll says "On the roll of a 6" and you have +1, if you roll a 6, this turns into a 7 and is no longer a 6. 

Rerolls before modifiers is in the Core Rules.

On the last point, I would call that a typo and play it as 6 or more - alternatively if the buff says "may add +1", then add it to the fives and don't add it to the sixes and you're good to go. Literally adjust the dice if need be in front of the opponent.

[Kindling]

34 minutes ago, N_Watson said:

If something does a mortal wound on a 6 or more, you do a roll on a roll of a 6 or more. If you have +1, and roll a 6, your 6 turns into a 7. This generates a mortal wound. If you roll a 5, that turns into a 6. This generates a mortal wound. This is only the case for some that says "On a roll of 6 or more". 

Does that make sense?

 

Yep, thanks... Therefore, Dryads in woods can never receive a mortal wound from retributors unless they have a +1 to hit buff.

[Nico]

Quote

Leaders
Branchwraith (100)
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri 
Spirit of Durthu (400)
- General
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 

Units
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x 6 (360)
- Scythes
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows

Battalions
Winterleaf Wargrove (100)
Free Spirits (40)
Forest Folk (60)

Scenery
Sylvaneth Wyldwood - Sylvaneth Allegiance (0)

Total: 2000/2000

It's a perfectly solid list. The big downside of the Winterleaf is that the units of 4 Dryads are needed. I don't think many people have suggested going long and just playing 80, 90 or even 120 Dryads (I'll take a look at what you could fit in if you did this), but that might actually be pretty good. Dryads scale up really well (subject to difficulty in fitting them into cover if you have 30). 

Running 4 units of 10 with Bravery 6 does terrify me. They are only 5+ armour without 12 models and so a bit of enemy shooting could chip 3 models off each unit, then you're potentially losing another 3 to Battleshock for all 4 units (worst case). You have 15 models left once all the Dryads are left, so it's not hard for your opponent to preclude a major win on Take and Hold.

My other observation is more general but also applies to this list. For a mono-allegiance, Sylvaneth are pretty versatile and so they benefit disproportionately from a certain amount of flexibility at a tournament. The optimal level for them would be if you have a fixed list, but you can switch weapon options, artefacts and traits. In particular, Kurnoths switching from Scythes to Bows, Drycha and above all else the combination of command trait and artefact and lore (Sylvaneth's being top tier on this front).

What really brought this home was hearing how Les Martin crushed Sedge's Kunning Rukk list (it was I gather tempered down from the one used at the Warlords). I'm really looking forward to hearing about this game on Facehammer. I gather what he did was to use the Household with an Ancient (in Gnarlroot) and gave it Oaken Armour and Gnarled Warrior for a 2+ save rerolling ones (as soon as he can use his command ability) - IGNORING -1 REND. While this is a common choice and very strong against most armies (except against mortal wounds) it is a complete hard counter to Bonesplitterz (who don't have a lot of mortal wounds, the Trolling Mask looking thing is probably the exception), since they rely on the -1 rend that the filth Arrer Boyz gain against monsters. This meant that as soon as Les had a turn, his Ancient (presumably deployed on the table so he can use command ability and then move through the Wyldwoods) was on a 35/36 armour save without needing oh so unreliable Mystic Shield. So you can inflict 360 wounds with all your dice rolling (this is an exaggeration of how powerful Kunning Rukk is) and still watch the Ancient Survive with two wounds and then heal back D6). 

I gather he lobbed him (surely needs to be called Orruk-squisher or some other nickname) through the woods and made the charge to get into combat with the Arrer Boyz. Then the best bit of all - the Household means that the Arrer Boyz cannot retreat. Great spot Les (it's something I've only really though about as a counter to Skaven retreat plus charge trickery).  This means that the Arrerboyz cannot move all game other than to pile in inefficiently towards the Ancient. Meanwhile, he is smacking them and missing all of his 3+, 3+ attacks, but more importantly the rest of Les's army can stay outside of the 18 inch range of the filth, and pick off the Big Boss and battleshock off the rest of the army. 

Other armies benefit more from full sideboards (too slow for my liking) and dual list tournaments - simply because they have such a huge range of Warscrolls. 

Turning back to your list - Briarsheath is the other obvious option - for the -1 to hit debuff. If you can switch between Briarsheath and Oaken Armour depending on your opponent for each of 6 games, then you're in a much stronger position than if you cannot. Briarsheath is better against Bloodletter bomb for example (it's also good against Kunning Rukk, just not as good as what Les did). Otherwise, you need to make a call as to what type of armies you've struggled against and choose the artefacts accordingly. If you were up against Max's 3 Thundertusk plus Stonelord list, then the optimal artefact is probably the rarely mentioned Seed of Rebirth - simply because a pair of Thundertusks will not take off the Ancient/Durthu with 2 snowballs. They might still get lucky with Blood Vultures, but at least it's chewing up all of their shooting (apart from the other Thundertusk and 2 more Blood Vultures).

[N_Watson]

1 minute ago, Kindling said:

Yep, thanks... Therefore, Dryads in woods can never receive a mortal wound from retributors unless they have a +1 to hit buff.

Correct, as any roll of a 6 they make, would be a 5. 

[Nico]

Quote

He does however add a lot of value against Sylvaneth. If he can make a large piece of scenery quasi-deadly (even a piece of terrain that is already deadly! You could then make it dangerous for the enemy to try to dislodge some Aurics from it.

Lightbulb just went off. 

I was just typing this on the Let's Chat Fyreslayers thread when a lightbulb went off.

Not only is the Auric Runesmiter a soft counter to Sylvaneth, but it's also another tool in their arsenal, precisely because Sylvaneth can create and even move scenery around. Let's say you took Winterleaf with a Runesmiter. You could set up the first Wyldwood linking the Deployment Zones for example, then in the hero phase, the Runesmiter (standing on the back line) ideally in cover that isn't a Wyldwood), does Volcano's Call on it. This makes it an additional form of deadly (which isn't subject to the carve out for heroes and monsters) on top of the existing Wyldwood rule. 

The Volcano damage only happens in the hero phase, so you deploy into it a bunch of Dryads and Hunters and an Ancient in the movement phase (as normal) who just sit there and look inviting.

Then when the Brutes decide they feel like charging into the lava forest (sounds like a theme for a paint scheme coming up), a full 30.5% of the models (I think that's correct) that finish a charge within the wood will die. They can mitigate this to some extent by charging only one model to 0.5 inch away, but then they hamper their pile ins.

To complete the trolling, in your hero phase, first teleport the Dryads out of the Wyldwood with Forest Folk (to anywhere in your half of the table), then use Volcano's call again to melt some more models. Then teleport (say an Ancient) into the Wyldwood in the movement phase and try to charge them (don't roll a one...)  

To be fair, it's potentially an atrocity to the fluff (deliberately burning down your own forests), or it's a novel example of how Fyreslayers and Sylvaneth built an uneasy alliance or desperate times, desperate measures....

[Kindling]

6 hours ago, N_Watson said:

Correct, as any roll of a 6 they make, would be a 5. 

Sorry, just one more clarification on this.

Conversely, if Retributors had a +2 to hit, they would be doing mortal wounds on a 4+? I'm not sure that's how GW meant this to be applied. If so, what is out there that can give Retributors +2 to hit?

[N_Watson]

1 minute ago, Kindling said:

Sorry, just one more clarification on this.

Conversely, if Retributors had a +2 to hit, they would be doing mortal wounds on a 4+? I'm not sure that's how GW meant this to be applied. If so, what is out there that can give Retributors +2 to hit?

I'm am pretty sure it was intended as the rule says "on a 6 or more." If you think about it, how to do you roll more than a 6 on a 6 sided dice? WIth modifiers. They are a 220 point unit for 15 wounds. It is quite steep, so they need to pack a punch.  
That said, I am not really sure how easy it is for them to get +2. I know they can get +1 from a lord celestant. 
Anyway, don't want to derail the thread. 

How competitive would you guys rate this. 

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
Spirit of Durthu (400)
Branchwych (100)
Drycha Hamadreth (280)

Units
Dryads x 20 (240)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)

Behemoths

War Machines

Battalions
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Scenery

Total: 2000/2000

Not sure on optimal load outs, but the above is the new £100 box, a start collecting box and one more box of Dryads, so an army for £175. How would it fare at a 6 game matched play event after seeing the kind of armies that show up at these events? 

[Knight of Ruin]

Very similar to the idea i had for a Gnarlroot list, but also only because of the new big box, and a start collecting set. Curious to what the experts have to say

[Paul G]

Thought about squeezing an Order wizard in the list?


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[N_Watson]

1 minute ago, Paul G said:

Thought about squeezing an Order wizard in the list?


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Yup, but was a case of whether a single wizard would be better than 10 bodies from the dryads in an already low model count army. 

Lore master for the buff on druthu was a thought.