Where to start - tzeentch demons

[Skakrow]

Hey,

My club is about to start AOS in the new year and it's something I've been interested in for a while.

My club will start with some low point games before scaling g up to give us all a chance to learn together.

I am looking at picking up the remastered zeentch demon getting started set but are they units that will end up sitting on the shelf?

How many points ish is in the box?

If I was to go down the getting g started set what would you suggest as first purchases to expand? I was thinking an additional pink horror unit or two.

Thanks

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

The box itself contains 700 points (depending on how you build your herald and the exalted flamer).

I am a newcomer too, but from what i had read the starter is fine but not outstanding. It comes with pink horrors and a heral on foot. I am also planning to build the blue scribes out of the burning chariot that comes in it since it comes with 3 blue horrors.

From there gaunt summoner (which seems to be an autoinclude on any list) and pink horrors. Maybe a blue/brimstone horror box too if you wish.

 

 

[Skakrow]

Thanks for your input.

 

I was thinking the same, the flamers dont look great on paper. I may have to price up individual boxes and go from there.

Is there a formation in the box like the 40k ones?

[Countmoore]

If you are an ok hobby converter you can use the disks from the chariot and convert up the blue scribes from that kit. 

Which as 120 point hero makes the £ to point ratio pretty good from that box.  

[Skakrow]

Hmm not a bad shout, would be a pretty straight forward conversion

[Hannibal]

You can still build the flaming chariot AND those blue scribes (or a herald on disk if you like). 

[themortalgod]

The getting started kit is certainly good value for its cost. Whether the units end up collecting dust on a shelf, though, depends on how competitive your club is.

Flamers (both normal and exalted) are overcosted. For a few points more you can take skyfires which are faster, more powerful at shooting, more powerful in close combat, and have twice as good survivability so its really hard to justify flamers. Though, I have had some mixed success with flamers. I find the best way to use them is to heavily split their fire so each flamer is shooting a different unit to maximize the potential for extra MWs. (you only need to cause a wound to ignite them, you don't actually have to do damage) I also find that they tend to have a much bigger impact when up against armies that have limited shooting. Any army with ranged threat is just going to trivially mow down your expensive flamers and there isn't much you can do about it.

Screamers, unfortunately, are also over costed, perhaps even more so, relatively speaking. I, personally, feel they are only worth about 25pts per model but they are currently costed at 40. They just don't have any role they are very good at. Fluff wise they are a harassment unit and monster hunter but their harass is trivial and their damage vs monsters is really pretty low so they struggle to find a role. Maybe if they had rend. They are currently the same cost per wound as Tzaangor Enlightened and the Tzaangor are stronger. (Which is rough since Tzaangor Enlightened aren't really very strong either in the great big scheme of things)

Horrors, I am really fond of, you get a lot of bang for your buck in that little unit. Personally, they are my favorite DoT battleline and always end up feeling like they are worth the points. I always try to keep them to minimum sized units as I don't feel the big unit bonuses are worth it. Especially when considering that each unit of 10 can cast a spell.  

I've been experimenting with the herald in chariot recently to mixed success. I quite enjoy putting it in a changehost with the changeling. This allows you to swap the two on turn 1 to dump the chariot right into the enemy deployment zone. You promptly then cast its spell with half the enemy army in range. If it goes off it can do some decent damage, then in the move phase you can run with the chariot to get away. (slashing as you go) I usually run behind my enemy's battleline forcing them to decide to go chariot hunting or to continue forward. (Also worth noting, cast a spell with the changeling before swapping, there really isn't much point in keeping him "hidden" when he is back on your side of the table)

As for expanding, a couple boxes of pink horrors is a great start. I also find blue and brims invaluable to filling out changehost requirements and also as chafe to screen with. (pink horrors being a bit expensive as chafe) A Lord of Change is a no brainer as well. They are incredibly potent and also needed for a changehost. Gaunt summoner is another obvious choice (pro tip, get the one from silver tower off ebay (usually about $15) with his familiars so you can run "gaunt summoner and familiars" which is the same points cost but has +1 to cast. (his warscroll is in Everchosen). And, of course, The Changeling, as mentioned above. Personally, I feel he is invaluable, his disruption potential can completely change an opponent's battle plan. 

When you get your lord of change, build it with the sword. Most people instinctively are drawn to the rod thinking the LoC won't ever be in combat but in reality that shooting attack rarely does much damage. In contrast, the sword with phantasmal weapons and arcane transformation makes for a really nasty melee unit. As Tzeentch your goal is to avoid combat but unless you are facing a gun line combat will happen. Having a LoC that can wreck face can make a huge difference.  I've caught my opponents off guard many times when my LoC counter charges their heavy hitter and erases it in a single round of combat with the help of some destiny dice. Everyone is used to playing vs a LoC with rod that hits like a wet noodle so they disregard it as a threat in melee. Magical supremacy is a no brainer against any enemy with magic. Thanks to his command ability and mastery of magic the odds of unbinding are really good and you only need to roll a 4+ on one of your dice to trigger spell-thief. (very good odds, also, worth noting, you don't have to successfully unbind to steal a spell, you just need to roll 9+ on the unbinding attempt so if your opponent shows boxcars, you have about an 80% chance to learn it, and about a 30% chance to unbind)

[Countmoore]

1 hour ago, themortalgod said:

(Also worth noting, cast a spell with the changeling before swapping, there really isn't much point in keeping him "hidden" when he is back on your side of the table)

Swaps happen at the start of the hero phase so can’t do this one anymore. 

Other than that a very good write up and thanks for reminding me of spell thief as I’d completely forgot it was even on his scroll. 

Only difference for me is the rod v sword as I find the rod pretty good for knocking the odd wound off here and there. And as I can keep the LoC behind my screens it means I get 4 or 5 turns out of the rod as opposed to maybe 1 with the sword. In terms of item/command I run magical supremacy and wellspring. Just in the case the blue scribes are needed elsewhere. 

[themortalgod]

8 hours ago, Countmoore said:

Swaps happen at the start of the hero phase so can’t do this one anymore. 

Other than that a very good write up and thanks for reminding me of spell thief as I’d completely forgot it was even on his scroll. 

Only difference for me is the rod v sword as I find the rod pretty good for knocking the odd wound off here and there. And as I can keep the LoC behind my screens it means I get 4 or 5 turns out of the rod as opposed to maybe 1 with the sword. In terms of item/command I run magical supremacy and wellspring. Just in the case the blue scribes are needed elsewhere. 

3

Bummer, didn't realized they FAQed it, oh well, no big deal.

I often used to forget about spell thief too since Tz has such good spells to begin with but there are a few out there are really nice to steal. I find the LoC almost has the opportunity for a counter charge by turn 2 or so. If you are avoiding combat you can probably keep him out of combat most of the game but since Tzeentch Daemons don't really have any close combat it means your other units will basically be getting rolled over while you try to zap them to the ground before the enemy army  overwhelms you. The Combat LoC really helps mitigate that with the aforementioned counter charge. All of a sudden your opponent loses their a big part of their battle plan to something they didn't expect.  Most games, if I play smart my LoC spends half the game in melee and often comes out the other side alive with a big death tally. Just make sure to keep him screened so you don't get surrounded and overwhelmed.

 

[Skakrow]

That#s really helpful thanks. I am currently on the look out for some cheap horrors and the summoner.

[Greasygeek]

I know many prefer skyfires but consider this. Changeling plus 6 flamers. You now have a unit capable of popping up everywhere and almost always oneshot kill whatever they shoot at. Lately I have had a great succes placing the changeling out of harm in enemy territory and thus forcing my opponent to either wait for the changeling to summon (which won’t happen untill the timing is right) or march his army towards the many horrors I have stealing objectives and shooting at him. If he goes for my horrors the changeling spend two destiny dice to assure the flamers arrival and my oponnent find his army stuck in the middle of a lot of shooting. If he decide to stay back he will have to ‘waste’ lots of points hanging out close to the changeling. Even if he do so I can always choose to summon something else or have the flamers come at him from another wizard. If I had chosen the skyfires instead my opponent will know where they are and often also how to deal with them from the begining of the game. I guess its up to what style you like to play but I sure prefer the element of surprise and Tzeentch daemons can really do that for you. Good luck.

 

[Freejack02]

On 12/27/2017 at 4:19 PM, Greasygeek said:

I know many prefer skyfires but consider this. Changeling plus 6 flamers. You now have a unit capable of popping up everywhere and almost always oneshot kill whatever they shoot at. Lately I have had a great succes placing the changeling out of harm in enemy territory and thus forcing my opponent to either wait for the changeling to summon (which won’t happen untill the timing is right) or march his army towards the many horrors I have stealing objectives and shooting at him. If he goes for my horrors the changeling spend two destiny dice to assure the flamers arrival and my oponnent find his army stuck in the middle of a lot of shooting. If he decide to stay back he will have to ‘waste’ lots of points hanging out close to the changeling. Even if he do so I can always choose to summon something else or have the flamers come at him from another wizard. If I had chosen the skyfires instead my opponent will know where they are and often also how to deal with them from the begining of the game. I guess its up to what style you like to play but I sure prefer the element of surprise and Tzeentch daemons can really do that for you. Good luck.

I think you are over-stating the impact that those 6 flamers will have in a single shooting phase (and let's be honest, they're so paper thin they likely won't last much longer than that).  Even if spending those 11 points worth of destiny dice (ouch) is a good use (it isn't), they're shooting 19 attacks at 4/3/-/D3. That's 9.5 hits, 6.33 wounds - 12.66 total damage at zero rend. Then a shot at D3 mortals, or a shot at healing the enemy.  That... isn't really impressive enough to "almost always oneshot kill" anything save chaff. There's a reason that no serious list runs Flamers - they just aren't worth what they cost. 

[CJPT]

On 12/26/2017 at 8:05 AM, themortalgod said:

 I find the best way to use them is to heavily split their fire so each flamer is shooting a different unit to maximize the potential for extra MWs. (you only need to cause a wound to ignite them, you don't actually have to do damage)

As I understand it this was FAQ'd in August:

Q: Some abilities refer to a unit suffering a wound or unsaved
wound – do they apply to wounds that are saved, negated
or ignored?
A: No. In the Warhammer Age of Sigmar rules, the term
‘suffered’ refers to a wound that has been allocated to a
model and has not been negated.

i.e, Flamers need to do damage for Warpflame to apply. Poor Flamers!
 

[themortalgod]

On 12/29/2017 at 12:53 AM, CJPT said:

As I understand it this was FAQ'd in August:

Q: Some abilities refer to a unit suffering a wound or unsaved
wound – do they apply to wounds that are saved, negated
or ignored?
A: No. In the Warhammer Age of Sigmar rules, the term
‘suffered’ refers to a wound that has been allocated to a
model and has not been negated.

i.e, Flamers need to do damage for Warpflame to apply. Poor Flamers!
 

damn, thats unfortunate, though, why not just write "damage" instead of "wound"  Unnecessary confusion. That makes flamers even weaker for their points I guess. 

[themortalgod]

On 12/28/2017 at 10:32 PM, Freejack02 said:

I think you are over-stating the impact that those 6 flamers will have in a single shooting phase (and let's be honest, they're so paper thin they likely won't last much longer than that).  Even if spending those 11 points worth of destiny dice (ouch) is a good use (it isn't), they're shooting 19 attacks at 4/3/-/D3. That's 9.5 hits, 6.33 wounds - 12.66 total damage at zero rend. Then a shot at D3 mortals, or a shot at healing the enemy.  That... isn't really impressive enough to "almost always oneshot kill" anything save chaff. There's a reason that no serious list runs Flamers - they just aren't worth what they cost. 

Yeah, I'd agree, as a unit designed to snipe a single target to death, Flamers are horrible, you get the most mileage by spreading their shots around to maximize the odds of the MWs but even then they aren't efficient. As it stands I consider flamers a horrible choice against an opponent with access to much ranged firepower as the horrible defenses of flamers relative to high pts cost makes them a magnificent target for shooting. Against melee, they are "mediocre" and you can keep them alive by keeping them screened from getting charged all game.

[CJPT]

3 hours ago, themortalgod said:

Yeah, I'd agree, as a unit designed to snipe a single target to death, Flamers are horrible, you get the most mileage by spreading their shots around to maximize the odds of the MWs but even then they aren't efficient. As it stands I consider flamers a horrible choice against an opponent with access to much ranged firepower as the horrible defenses of flamers relative to high pts cost makes them a magnificent target for shooting. Against melee, they are "mediocre" and you can keep them alive by keeping them screened from getting charged all game.

I agree. I think some of their points value is bound up in their ability to split on death if there's a Daemon hero nearby. It's potentially really powerful, but at the moment I think it's too unreliable to justify the 200 point hit. That ability has won me a game in the past, but I only run them over Skyfires because my army is (currently) 100% Daemons.

If AoS got a big rules shakeup, I'd like them to take a look at how these same units work in 8th edition 40k. 40k Flamers are a close-range harassment unit that have a 4+ invulnerable save to help them get across the battlefield. I find them much more fun to use there, because they're a great distraction and take a bit of effort to kill off, but have much shorter range.

[themortalgod]

16 hours ago, CJPT said:

I agree. I think some of their points value is bound up in their ability to split on death if there's a Daemon hero nearby. It's potentially really powerful, but at the moment I think it's too unreliable to justify the 200 point hit. That ability has won me a game in the past, but I only run them over Skyfires because my army is (currently) 100% Daemons.

If AoS got a big rules shakeup, I'd like them to take a look at how these same units work in 8th edition 40k. 40k Flamers are a close-range harassment unit that have a 4+ invulnerable save to help them get across the battlefield. I find them much more fun to use there, because they're a great distraction and take a bit of effort to kill off, but have much shorter range.

I'm really hoping Malign Portents comes with an AoS 2nd Edition rules adding in a few things like hero sniping prevention and getting rid of the silly 3" bubble around everything. (And the double turn if I'm REALLY wishing  )

I'm not sure how a shake-up could really help flamers without a pretty radical change, I just think either they need a big points discounts or they need to have a warscroll update. Neither of which is coming anytime soon. I also think a big factor is that DoT have some of the worst warscroll battalion options of any army with a modern battletome, with the exception of a couple the DoT battalions are simply too expensive and restrictive with lackluster bonuses to ever see play. As a result, there is really no incentive to bring flamers over skyfires other than for theme. 

[Keldaur]

8 hours ago, themortalgod said:

I'm really hoping Malign Portents comes with an AoS 2nd Edition rules adding in a few things like hero sniping prevention and getting rid of the silly 3" bubble around everything. (And the double turn if I'm REALLY wishing  )

Hopefully not, because all of those would be terrible for the game. Go ahead and do it yourself and you will realize.

[Skakrow]

Another blog tzeentch question, how many and what spells do heralds, pink horrors get? The warscroll for horrors say they get arcane bolt and mystic shield heralds know shield, bolt and pink fire.  I thought you chose their spell or are these in addition to one selected from the lore?

[AverageBoss]

1 hour ago, Skakrow said:

Another blog tzeentch question, how many and what spells do heralds, pink horrors get? The warscroll for horrors say they get arcane bolt and mystic shield heralds know shield, bolt and pink fire.  I thought you chose their spell or are these in addition to one selected from the lore?

All Wizards know Mystic Shield and Arcane Bolt. Pink Fire is the Heralds signature spell, so he also knows that.

Tzeentch Wizards in a Tzeentch aligned army (and only in a Tzeentch aligned army), may also select spells from the Tzeentch spell lores. If you field those wizards in any other kind of army, they do not get the spells from those lores, only MS, AB, and any unique spells they might have.

[Skakrow]

13 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

All Wizards know Mystic Shield and Arcane Bolt. Pink Fire is the Heralds signature spell, so he also knows that.

Tzeentch Wizards in a Tzeentch aligned army (and only in a Tzeentch aligned army), may also select spells from the Tzeentch spell lores. If you field those wizards in any other kind of army, they do not get the spells from those lores, only MS, AB, and any unique spells they might have.

Cool thanks.

 

So pinkbhorros have shield & arcane bolt in addition to one other from the lore so long as it is a fully tzeentch force

[themortalgod]

On 1/2/2018 at 5:57 AM, Keldaur said:

Hopefully not, because all of those would be terrible for the game. Go ahead and do it yourself and you will realize.

I disagree, I have, its called 40k 8th edition. They learned. The 3" bubble became 1", which is much more reasonable. I find so often that the board just gets ridiculously clogged because of that 3" bubble. being able to have 7" board control from a single infantry model is silly. Also its stupid that a unit starting a turn 3" away can actually fail a charge. 

Also hero sniping is a horrible mechanic. It doesn't add to the "fun" to the game to lose half your most interesting models on turn  1  every game with absolutely nothing you can do to stop it. Its also ridiculous to have some big warmachine able to shoot and snipe a single man-sized model hiding behind a massive army. I have so many heroes I'd love to try as my general that are 5w infantry models but its just not viable because I know I will lose them guaranteed turn 1.

And the double turn. I almost didn't play AoS because of the mechanic alone. The idea that single dice roll can vastly swing the game is not fun. Neither is a situation where a player is playing for like 45min while the other just watches his army evaporate. It amazes me how many battle reports I've watched where a player just loses half their army to a trun 1-2 double turn. Not fun. I think a better solution would be a mixed turn with alternate unit activations but that isn't happening anytime soon. My friends and I usually just don't play with double turn and we find it way better. It reminds me of alpha strike in 8th ed before we figured out you needed a ****** ton of scenery.  Its not fun to just lose because a gunline got a double turn early.  

I'd rather play AoS because I prefer the models, and I also prefer a game that is more melee focused than shooting focused, but 40k 8th ed did take a lot of AoS mechanics and improved on them. I'd love to see 2nd ed AoS now learn from some of the 8th ed mistakes and iterate even better.

 

 

 

[Keldaur]

Yes i know you have. But it's a completely different game, with different objectives, with different weapons. And if you haven't found the character system pretty bad, you haven't played enough. It's terrible. Do it in Age of Sigmar. The biggest problem GW had with characters in the past was that they couldn't make your common rank and file character attractive enough over mages. What they did in AoS is give them buffs and command orders and the like, those make them attractive enough, but to be able to stop and as an automatic way for the game to deal with potentially too good combos, characters can be sniped. If 40k had the system AoS had, Guilliman would still be a problem, mostly because the terrible extra save he has that he can save with CPs rerolls easilly, but outside of that, nothing would be extremely abusive in regards to characters if you allow them to be sniped. And don't bring up sniper rifles please, or atleast, take your time to reflect on them before. That way you can make heroes attractives and powerful withouth loosing  balance completely.

About the double turn, if you find it better good for you. The reason i like it and i find it interesting is because you have to take into account a wider array of opportunities and externalities, it adds depth to an otherwise deterministic system. I never lose due to a double turn, but because i didn't prepare for it, so i have to completely disagree. If you are loosing due to a double turn, maybe you should check what you could had done before instead ?

 

 

[themortalgod]

11 hours ago, Keldaur said:

Yes i know you have. But it's a completely different game, with different objectives, with different weapons. And if you haven't found the character system pretty bad, you haven't played enough. It's terrible. Do it in Age of Sigmar. The biggest problem GW had with characters in the past was that they couldn't make your common rank and file character attractive enough over mages. What they did in AoS is give them buffs and command orders and the like, those make them attractive enough, but to be able to stop and as an automatic way for the game to deal with potentially too good combos, characters can be sniped. If 40k had the system AoS had, Guilliman would still be a problem, mostly because the terrible extra save he has that he can save with CPs rerolls easilly, but outside of that, nothing would be extremely abusive in regards to characters if you allow them to be sniped. And don't bring up sniper rifles please, or atleast, take your time to reflect on them before. That way you can make heroes attractives and powerful withouth loosing  balance completely.

About the double turn, if you find it better good for you. The reason i like it and i find it interesting is because you have to take into account a wider array of opportunities and externalities, it adds depth to an otherwise deterministic system. I never lose due to a double turn, but because i didn't prepare for it, so i have to completely disagree. If you are loosing due to a double turn, maybe you should check what you could had done before instead ?

 

 

Personally, I don't find it fun never to get to do anything with the models I spend the most time painting because they all get alpha struck off the board on turn 1. A 5-6 wound general is especially useless but even high wound count heroes can often be erased on turn 1 by many armies. There is utterly nothing you can do to stop it. That isn't fun. Personally, I never saw a problem with infantry heroes joining units to protect them but if that isn't ever coming back then some variation of the current 40k system is superior, at least low wounds count heroes can stick around for a few turns and play a role in the game. 

Id' argue that if your opponents aren't able to radically shift the power of a game with a double turn then they aren't very good. Thats a HUGE tempo advantage to the player that gets it. Especially ranged focused armies. My DoT army has been able to kill 70-80% of an enemy's army before on a turn 1 double turn. They aren't the only ranged army that can do that. But even taking the balance problem tied to a completely random event that swings a massive advantage to one player aside. A turn from a ranged army takes 20-30min if they have lots of shots. If they get a double turn that means the ONLY aspect of the game you take part in for the next 40-60min is taking your models off the board. I'd go so far as to argue the double turn, is in my opinion, the single worst design decision made by any wargaming company I have ever heard of and I've been playing wargames for 25 years. I think a mixed turn with alternating unit activation (like shadespire) is the eventual future, but not for a while yet. 

If GW felt the double turn was working, 8th ed 40k would have gotten it. The double turn is ok for narrative play I guess, but for any sort of competitive/matched/league play environment, it has the potential to swing the game radically based on the whim of a priority roll.