Driven back mechanic

[Mournfang's mourning]

As I read the rules a fighter can be driven back if the attacker's and defender's totals are the same (with at least one hit) or if the attacker's total is greater than the defender's total.

So does that mean if these requirements have been met that in addition to doing the damage the defender can always be driven back one hex? Or do I have to decide whether to go for the damage OR the drive back? Can I also decide not to drive back the target if I damaged it?

Who does decide where the target gets pushed to? The attacker or defender?

Thanks in advance!

[ReynakZhen]

The target takes damage on a successful attack and the attacker can always push the target to an unoccupied hex not adjacent to  the attacker. Unless the defender rolls more crits than the attacker. The attacker does not have to drive back the defender. The attacker decides what hex the defender gets driven back into

[Mournfang's mourning]

Thanks for clearing things up

So this might give me some strategic advantage when attacking a fighter who already moved so that he maybe cannot get back in combat again, right?

[Killax]

Exact. Some additional help:

Damage is taken before a target is driven back.

If a target can't be driven back damage is still taken as a regular succes.

A target that can be driven back has to be driven back further away from the attacker.

Knockback pushes a target in a straight line (furthee) if you are able to apply it and you can only apply it on a succesful hit or critical hit.

[Mournfang's mourning]

Thank you for the additional infos!

So knockback has the same effect as driven back, that a target can get knocked back even when it won't get damaged after a hit roll (i.e. if the totals from the attacked and defender are even) OR does knockback only apply for hits that also deal damage successfully?

[Killax]

Knockback only applies for the latter, thus hits that cause damage (succesful hits) a draw result still counts as a failure but can push the target as per drive(n) back.

In addition the extra hex push must be in a straight line. So knockback 2 for example cant push you "around a corner".

All is covered in the Rulesbook though.

[someone2040]

Another interesting mechanic with knockbacks is that you can potentially enable your other fighters to attack without charging. This is something you can pick up from Bloodbowl (Although Bloodbowl does not have alternating actions) where you can push enemies into the attacking area for another of your friendly models.

This usually requires a bit of speed (so a good thing in your toolbox for Garrek's Reavers) as you'll likely need to get around to a further hex to get the push direction right.

This means that say, you've got one of your better fighters such as Garrek, Saek or Karsus a hex away from an enemy, you can potentially use one of your little guys like Arnulf or Targor to run around the side and push back an enemy.

 

Another interesting tidbit (that I did diagram up before figuring out I was wrong) is that you have to push the enemy further away in order to be eligible to drive them back. This means that for range 2 attacks there are actually fewer hexes available for pushback (but also means less hexes to be blocked).

[Sleboda]

6 hours ago, Killax said:

A target that can be driven back has to be driven back further away from the attacker.

You are, of course, correct, but as a way to help other who might be struggling with terminology as one of my regular opponents has been ----

A better way to make your clarification would be to say that a target that can be driven back has to be pushed further away from the attacker.

"Push" is the highest level term to cover the moving (lower case) of a fighter from his hex to another.  A push, in general, just has to put the fighter on a different unblocked, unoccupied hex that is one hex away from the origin hex.  Direction is not limited.

A Drive Back is a Push that has a single extra restriction placed on it - the thing that defines it - and that it that the fighter must be further away from the attacker than it was before being driven back.

 

In other words, a non-zero tie allows you to (Push the fighter away one hex that gets him further from the attacker) - defined as a Drive Back.

 

I say this only to help people see that you cannot generically use Push in all cases, and if you say Drive Back, you do not need to specify that the fighter ends up further away since that is the very thing Drive Back means.

 

 

Sorry, I like to be specific in terms with games.

 

[Bademeister]

last time i played with an other guy we disscused a situation where he attacks me. we both got a critical hit/defence, no other hits. 

I mean its ruled, that you can't push a model after crits. He said it is allowed. I shoed him the rulebox where crits are ruled, but he denied it. i let push him my model, but i still think it was incorrect.

What do you think? is it possible to push after a crit hit and crit defence with no other hits?

[Killax]

 

29 minutes ago, Bademeister said:

What do you think? is it possible to push after a crit hit and crit defence with no other hits?

Page 20 of the Rulesbook is very clear on this.
If one of the attack dice matches the requirement and the defence dice too then the attack is considered as a failed attack but the attacker can drive back the enemy model.

Better put, a model can be driven back on a drawed result, succesful result or critical result. 

[Bademeister]

But in the box on page 20 it is written, that you can't be pushed by a attack when you got a crit save roll.

[Killax]

1 hour ago, Bademeister said:

But in the box on page 20 it is written, that you can't be pushed by a attack when you got a crit save roll.

E.g. 

Quote

we both got a critical hit/defence, no other hits. 

Rulesbook, page 20 states:



In this case:
- The target does not have more Critical symbols than the attacker.
- Both players have rolled the same number of Critical symbols.
- The attack total equals the defence total but a succes was rolled (Critical), the target can be driven back.

[Bademeister]

On 4.12.2017 at 1:46 PM, Killax said:

- The attack total equals the defence total but a succes was rolled (Critical), the target can be driven back.

I don't think it's right. The attack is no success, because: "the success or failure of the attack action depends on the total number of successes rolled by either player."

A crtitical hit is not a success. Otherwise the upper quoted box would be useless. When a critical hit is always a success.

 

For those you forget what was rolled: Attacker: 1 Crit and 1 swords (have to be hammers) Defender: 1 Crit 

[Killax]

8 minutes ago, Bademeister said:

I don't think it's right. The attack is no success, because: "the success or failure of the attack action depends on the total number of successes rolled by either player."

A crtitical hit is not a success. Otherwise the upper quoted box would be useless. When a critical hit is always a success.

 

For those you forget what was rolled: Attacker: 1 Crit and 1 swords (have to be hammers) Defender: 1 Crit 

Read the above again.  In your example two players each rolled one Critical on a dice.
- Both players have rolled the same number of Critical symbols.
- The attack total equals the defence total but a succes was rolled (Critical), the target can be driven back.

Rolling successes is always done with a Critical symbol. A succesful attack is only there if the attacker rolled 'better' as the defender. However if the attack total equals the defence total (which it does) the target can be driven back.

You don't need a succesful attack to drive someone back. What you need is an equal or better dice result. If both players roll a Critical it's an equal results.