'Competitive' Ironjawz

[Papapene]

Without Gordrakk I wouldn't be confident making the 8" charge...

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[LortOlle]

On 2016-08-12 at 10:38 PM, Sangfroid said:

Well da rest of dem silly faktions r chasin da filth a ova dere place I thought I'd leave dis lil nugget ere. 

10 ardboyz armed with any combo of 2 hander or 2 hand weapons on average will do 5 wounds to a hurricalnium

3 gore gruntas also do 5 wounds 

5 brutes can kill it or at least av off 9-10 wounds

mawcrusha kills it outright 

gordrakk..... Yeah he doesn't even let Bigteef get a lookin 

only need 3 to drop it down to only 2 shots, 7 wounds to get it down to one shot. 

Pray to Gorkamorka dat the stinky hummies and dere friends all take 3 to every event and we should be smashin up some face :-)

10 ardboys with only 2 hand weapons will do 5 wounds.

5 brutes will do about 7 wounds (assuming gore-choppa and boss with klaw+smasha) 

         3 brutes with 2 choppas do 3,55 wounds

         1 gore-choppa does 1,33 wounds

         boss does 2,11 wounds with klaw+smasha (counting 50/50 that both smasha hits automatically) 

         (boss does 1,77 wounds with boss-choppa)

3 gore gruntas with choppas will do 4,67 wounds

Brutes are the hardest hitting battleline but not by that much. Considering the bravery and charge bonus the ardboys have, it's a tough choice. It is easier to get the whole unit into combat though.

(Double post during maintenance, cannot delete the post above)

[Sangfroid]

Have you factored in the rerolls to hit for the brutes "duff up da big things" rules? Also I rounded up gore gruntas as you either in reality do 4 wounds or 5 and it was closer to 5 :-)

[LortOlle]

21 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

Have you factored in the rerolls to hit for the brutes "duff up da big things" rules? Also I rounded up gore gruntas as you either in reality do 4 wounds or 5 and it was closer to 5 :-)

No, you are right. Didn't consider that. The brutes will do about 9,5 wounds so you are correct.

You did however chose an optimal target for the brutes to compare the units against. 

On units with less than 4 wounds ardboys will actually outdamage brutes on targets without armor in addition to the bravery and charge bonuses.

[LortOlle]

On 2016-08-09 at 5:15 PM, Garxia said:

ATM I'm planning on using 2 units of 10, armed with 7/3 GW/shield split with full command (Banner, icon, musician). Dual weapons seems inferior.

Why is dual weapons inferior? I see this all over this forum but I don't get it.

Ardboys don't get 2" range with big choppas, they trade 1 attack for -1 rend. This would statistically only be beneficial if your target has 2+ armor save (they are equal against 3+ save).

Is every other meta so filled with 2+ saves that everyone has to model their ardboys against it?

[Sangfroid]

7 hours ago, LortOlle said:

No, you are right. Didn't consider that. The brutes will do about 9,5 wounds so you are correct.

You did however chose an optimal target for the brutes to compare the units against. 

On units with less than 4 wounds ardboys will actually outdamage brutes on targets without armor in addition to the bravery and charge bonuses.

The post was a response to the Internet going crazy with the SCGT winner taking 3 hurriculaniums to an event and winning with it. I was just quietly pointing out that this would be a great craze for us destruction players if it caught on as ou pr speed and reliable units could get into the machines fast and neuter there big strengths of mortal wounds shots.  Just a bit of silly fun :-) in regard to ardboys I'm a big fan and with the addition of a warchanter they do a good job!

[Chris Tomlin]

Yeh I am firmly of the opinion we will see more and more Ardboyz creeping into "competitive" Ironjawz lists (the fact everyone has 45450123 of them from SC boxes helps as well!!). Damage aside, their wounds/points ratio is great in objective based games. I have 20 more to assemble and will be doing at least 10 of them with 2HW just to try out. Nice to have some variety.

I gotta say though, I really dislike all the fractional wound probability chat. Do people really play the game going into combats thinking "Right, so I should do 4.77 wounds here"?! Wouldn't you just find yourself getting upset over inevitable dice spikes when they don't roll as they should?

Fair play though if that's your thing of course haha!!  

[LortOlle]

5 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

The post was a response to the Internet going crazy with the SCGT winner taking 3 hurriculaniums to an event and winning with it. I was just quietly pointing out that this would be a great craze for us destruction players if it caught on as ou pr speed and reliable units could get into the machines fast and neuter there big strengths of mortal wounds shots.  Just a bit of silly fun :-) in regard to ardboys I'm a big fan and with the addition of a warchanter they do a good job!

Yes, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to attack your post and didn't get the reference to the hurricanium list. I just saw a post about damage output of the different units that didn't look right. You were right ofcourse I just didn't consider the hit reroll and just didn't think brutes were THAT good against large targets.

 

On a whole other note, while I'm already spamming this thread. What do you think of the weirdnob?

The foot of gork spell has a 15/36 (~42 %) chance of hitting if the shaman has 20+ orruks around him and it does 7 mortal wounds on average. This means it's about 3 mortal wounds per hero phase. This seems ok, compared to the maw-crushas bellow that does about 2 wounds per shooting phase before armor saves. IF the spell hits (42 %) it does 7 wounds on average, this would make for example the hurricanum shoot just once instead of three times per round or kill off one of those nasty courtiers in FEC. 

My numbers assume that the foot of gork spell is NOT counted by the rule of one as it isn't really a reroll as described there. Someone who rerolls ones cannot reroll the reroll if he rolls another one but the foot of gork spell clearly states "Gork keeps on stamping until you fail to roll a 4 or more" this should be FAQd though.

[LortOlle]

15 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Yeh I am firmly of the opinion we will see more and more Ardboyz creeping into "competitive" Ironjawz lists (the fact everyone has 45450123 of them from SC boxes helps as well!!). Damage aside, their wounds/points ratio is great in objective based games. I have 20 more to assemble and will be doing at least 10 of them with 2HW just to try out. Nice to have some variety.

I gotta say though, I really dislike all the fractional wound probability chat. Do people really play the game going into combats thinking "Right, so I should do 4.77 wounds here"?! Wouldn't you just find yourself getting upset over inevitable dice spikes when they don't roll as they should?

Fair play though if that's your thing of course haha!!  

No, I just use statistics to compare the units. A lot of other things come up during an actual game. Ardboys are harder to get into combat because they are so many and like you say, dice spike. It is however a good thing imo to know roughly how well a unit "should" do so you don't assume that your 3 gore gruntas will do any real damage to a terrorgheist. They could spike all 6s but it's not something you should count on in a game. 

I don't calculate assumed wounds during a game but I have an idea how many wounds 5 brutes do against 4+ save etc.

I had a ton of black orcs from 8th so I run 40+ ardboys in most lists. The bravery, charge bonus, weirdnob boosting and objective capturing is a great bonus.

[Chris Tomlin]

8 minutes ago, LortOlle said:

No, I just use statistics to compare the units. A lot of other things come up during an actual game.

Yeh sorry, my post was meant to be more tongue in cheek than having a pop at anyone's preferred method of learning/playing etc.

I am aware some people like to run the numbers beforehand so they have a good idea of what things should be able to achieve when it comes to the table and indeed some good players will make use of Theoryhammer I guess.

11 minutes ago, LortOlle said:

so you don't assume that your 3 gore gruntas will do any real damage to a terrorgheist.

Or any other unit!!  

[LortOlle]

1 minute ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Yeh sorry, my post was meant to be more tongue in cheek than having a pop at anyone's preferred method of learning/playing etc.

I am aware some people like to run the numbers beforehand so they have a good idea of what things should be able to achieve when it comes to the table and indeed some good players will make use of Theoryhammer I guess.

Or any other unit!!  

Yeah It's mostly to know what I should send my brutes against and what I should bog down with ardboys. 

I know right? Gore-gruntas are disappointingly bad. Considering how fast the rest of our army is with ironfist and rampaging destroyer I don't see much point in taking more than 3 at max to flank with. Has anyone had any success with 660 points tied up in a gorefist? It seems good but I think it's just to expensive. I don't own 9 gore gruntas so I haven't tried it.

[Chris Tomlin]

8 minutes ago, LortOlle said:

Yeah It's mostly to know what I should send my brutes against and what I should bog down with ardboys. 

I know right? Gore-gruntas are disappointingly bad. Considering how fast the rest of our army is with ironfist and rampaging destroyer I don't see much point in taking more than 3 at max to flank with. Has anyone had any success with 660 points tied up in a gorefist? It seems good but I think it's just to expensive. I don't own 9 gore gruntas so I haven't tried it.

 

There are a few Megaboss' on here who seem to get some joy with Gore-gruntas, however I am not one. To me they are just outright our worst unit by some way. I like to include a unit for aesthetical reasons; they are superb models and add a different element to the army visually.

That said, I do now own 9 Gore-gruntas and once I've got them all assembled I will probably take the Gore-fist to a tournament just to give it a proper try...though I suspect I know the results!  

[LortOlle]

2 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

There are a few Megaboss' on here who seem to get some joy with Gore-gruntas, however I am not one. To me they are just outright our worst unit by some way. I like to include a unit for aesthetical reasons; they are superb models and add a different element to the army visually.

That said, I do now own 9 Gore-gruntas and once I've got them all assembled I will probably take the Gore-fist to a tournament just to give it a proper try...though I suspect I know the results!  

If you go first you could tie upp most of his army in his own deployment zone and the rest of the army can gain control of some objectives. It "should" take a couple of turns for him to kill or move around the 3 units becuase he can't just battleshock like he could if the gruntas were one unit. 

You should gain a lead in VPs but can you hold the lead with just 2/3 of your opponents army?

I think the 4+3d6 move (14,5" average)(run, ironfist, rampaging) of our non-grunta units should be enough to gain objectives and you can then fight them 2000 against 2000 points. Seems better?

[LordDrakonus]

I've routinely had great success with my gorefist, I use it as a massive flanking force to cause battleshock vs my wife's bloodbound before the banner goes down hold entire scary flanks up while the other boyz get into postion. Now would I be better served with more brutes and ardboyz? Maybe? but than I'd have to take gordrakk to make sure every gets where there going. 

[LortOlle]

1 minute ago, LordDrakonus said:

I've routinely had great success with my gorefist, I use it as a massive flanking force to cause battleshock vs my wife's bloodbound before the banner goes down hold entire scary flanks up while the other boyz get into postion. Now would I be better served with more brutes and ardboyz? Maybe? but than I'd have to take gordrakk to make sure every gets where there going. 

Wow, I totally blanked on using them as a flanking unit. In my mind flakers are like wolf riders or a 5 of boar boys, not 1/3 of the army. It does make a ton of sense though, your opponent needs to decide how much he/she should send to deal with the gruntas while the rest of the army takes objectives. It makes sense but I feel that you might be removing to much of the armys bite.

Gore-gruntas trade so much fight for their movement. 

[LordDrakonus]

We have no ranged units in a pure IronJawz list it's also what I use to try and get around bunkers and get to things like buff chariots and artillery pieces 

[LortOlle]

3 minutes ago, LordDrakonus said:

We have no ranged units in a pure IronJawz list it's also what I use to try and get around bunkers and get to things like buff chariots and artillery pieces 

True, I am a fan of foot of gork though. I would think they would bunker the buffers and artillery so the huge gruntas couln't get there without getting within 3" of somthing else first?

They are almost 2" wide so you could leave almost 8" gap between two models and the grunta couln't get through without beeing within 3" of one of them. Seems easy to prevent a charge.

[Sangfroid]

I hold no truck with magic full stop, if you successfully cast and don't kill a few ardboyz in the process and then roll a decent d6 mortal wounds and then 50/50 it does more damage to me feels like too many ifs and buts. 

I prefer the solidarity of close combat which does tie in to the stats thing too. Once in game I also don't think these ardboyz will do 4.XX wounds etc... But I find that by knowing that for example 5 brutes has an average chance of taking an Un-buffed Manfred down to 1 or 2 wounds means I can apply the units into combats with a bit of confidence so for example 

So let's say it's my charge phase and I have 5 brutes, 10 ardboyz and 3 goregruntas and I'm up against manfred, 4 Morghasts and 3 spirit hosts (so 540pts v 1030pts). Knowing the rough performance here's my thinking:

ardboyz: will probably half mannys wounds at best, and get a serious bashing back from him as his own attacks hurt and are not effected by damage taken (plus he will heal wounds back after killing me). They at best will kill one morghast and probably lose 5+ ardboyz if attacked first by morghasts.  Will kill a spirit host (maybe 2 if lucky) but hold out and lose a model maybe. 

Goregruntas: they will do similar to ardboyz and manny but may not lose a model to his return attacks or at worst 1 pig, will maybe kill a Morghast but will get smashed to pieces by them if attained first. Will kill a spirit host or two but will not lose a model back. 

Brutes: will seriously bash up manfred (maybe even kill him with some luck), will kill one morgast maybe 2 with luck. And will have a good chance to kill 2 or 3 spirit hosts.

so I'd look at this and charge brutes into manfred (hoping I kill him) as he is a lynchpin to a death army if I get lucky then that's great if not he should end up dying next turn or if he does amazing and clears off brutes I should be able to take him off with something else. Then the goregruntas and ardboyz try to charge the to sides of the morghasts with the 3 pigs hopefully base locking one moghast. This way it means they have to split attacks, messes with their pile in move and maybe I can focus down one or two of them from my combined attacks.... I am going to take some pain in return though. The spirt hosts I'd only attack with models that can't do anything else. 

It's a dice game so no guarantees but I'd hope to end my turn with mandfred dead or nearly so 3 or 4 brutes left alive 2 gore gruntas left alive, 6 ardboyz left and maybe 2 morghasts dead and spirt hosts lost a wound or 2. That's all about average so could be much better or much worse but even at the average point and not taking into account other units or buffs etc.... It's not totally unrealistic that 540pts could clear off all of the units over a turn or two and even if none survived it would be a worthwhile trade. 

 

Thats all the stats do I guess is help shape how you look at the battle once it's in progress :-)

[Malakithe]

So my thoughts behind this are the ironfist is a no brainer. Run those nasty brutes up with a megaboss and a Shaman I'm tow for support. 

Then we have our bodies and a suprise sniper with the weirdfist. With a 26-36" puke to snipe foot heroes and a 42" foot you'll get some strange looks I'm sure. Puke would do d3+(0-4) mortal wounds in a straight line a d foot does d6+(0-4) mortal wounds plus more if the great green dice are on your side. 

Speed, bodies, magic...not too bad for a all purpose 2k

Ironjawz
Ironfist:
Brutes 2×5 w/choppas
Brutes ×10 w/jagged hackas
Weirdfist:
Weirdnob Shaman
Ardboys 4×10 w/shields
Orruk Megaboss
Weirdnob Shaman

[Orruk]

12 hours ago, Malakithe said:

So my thoughts behind this are the ironfist is a no brainer. Run those nasty brutes up with a megaboss and a Shaman I'm tow for support. 

Then we have our bodies and a suprise sniper with the weirdfist. With a 26-36" puke to snipe foot heroes and a 42" foot you'll get some strange looks I'm sure. Puke would do d3+(0-4) mortal wounds in a straight line a d foot does d6+(0-4) mortal wounds plus more if the great green dice are on your side. 

Speed, bodies, magic...not too bad for a all purpose 2k

Ironjawz
Ironfist:
Brutes 2×5 w/choppas
Brutes ×10 w/jagged hackas
Weirdfist:
Weirdnob Shaman
Ardboys 4×10 w/shields
Orruk Megaboss
Weirdnob Shaman

Hi Malakithe,

Love your list! Mainly because I also can't resist foot, and I feel better with some range. But why the second weirdnob? Can they both benefit from the weirdfist? *edit: sorry just reread your post, second weirdnob for buffing*

I was building up to:

Gordrakk

2x warchanters

Weirdfist:

weirdnob

10x brutes

10x ardboyz

10x ardboyz

3x Gruntas (I know they don't fit but I love the models)

1980

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Orruk said:

Hi Malakithe,

Love your list! Mainly because I also can't resist foot, and I feel better with some range. But why the second weirdnob? Can they both benefit from the weirdfist? *edit: sorry just reread your post, second weirdnob for buffing*

I was building up to:

Gordrakk

2x warchanters

Weirdfist:

weirdnob

10x brutes

10x ardboyz

10x ardboyz

3x Gruntas (I know they don't fit but I love the models)

1980

Yeah the gore models are amazing but from what I hear they don't perform well. 

My weirdfist is basically all bodies for keeping the bonuses near the shaman. So they would stay in a huge block for the most part unless the way was clear to move a unit or two off to objective grab. The ironfist is there to do what we all know it does best...incite fear and wonder in your foe!

For ironjawz I think our magic, while very limited, is very underused. Mystic shield turns all the brutes and megaboss into tanks. 

I really reallywant to see the ironjawz allegiance abilities...I hope they are disappointing like the beastclaw was. Bonesplitterz thou...those crazy color freaks are super good right now in every aspect!

[Malakithe]

What I'm waiting for the most is Ironjawz allegiance abilities. I really hope they don't suck. I'd hate to see all this work and anticipation only to have everyone defaults back to destruction traits.

And I want to see mega battalions like the Bonesplitterz and Beastclaw

[Dez]

I think the biggest problem with the Weirdnob as a focus in a competitive setting has a few problems:

1. It's point cost. 120 points for a Mystic Shield buff when Grots get it for half price is tough to swallow
2. You can only Mystic Shield 1 unit
3. You can't rely on Foot, even with +2 to cast. Average on 2 dice is 7 and it is a 10 to cast. After that, it's random rolls at just above average. 
4. "Hello, Weirdnob!" *PUNCH* /dropdeadweirdnob. 6 wounds is cool, but a 5+ save is not great. It's too easy to focus him off the board.

 

[Vasshpit]

First off, I love this thread!

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

What I'm waiting for the most is Ironjawz allegiance abilities. I really hope they don't suck. I'd hate to see all this work and anticipation only to have everyone defaults back to destruction traits.

I was thinking if their allegiance abilities were geared towards buffing unit leaders that would be pretty cool and unique.

[Garxia]

If they ever do the Ironjawz allegiance traits/items/spells, they should be really really really good to be even considered to be picked over the Destruction ones.

Rampaging destroyers is really strong with Ironjaws, covering our most glaring weakness: mobility and just not forget at little candies like the Battle Brew...