The Church of Contagion: My dip in the Pestilens Pool ( I WIN!!!! 11/26))

[HorseOnABeachBall]

Game 6: Vs Ironjaws  Loss

Its vs the Ironjaw list again. Same one that placed high (if not won) the last big tourney. He finishes dropping first and forces me to go first. I advance and try to cover my units of 40 with the units of 20. On his turn( bottom of 1), everything WAAGHS and has speed boosts due to I dont know what. Everything also has +1 to hit or wound from I don't know what. His units all charge to a man (theyre really fast), and wipe out about half my units. He gets the double turn and kills the rest of my army. A few thoughts;

- AoS is a bad game. I typed out a big list of pros and cons, but at its core boils down to it just being a bad game. In this particular match, the double turn mechanic ended it mercifully quick. Not being able to play and simply remove models because of a double turn is a serious negative player experience.

- Its totally my fault for bringing one of the worst armies in the game, against one of the best armies in the game. I get that.

- In order to not get totally drubbed every time I'm going to have to switch to a more supported army, or not play against optimized net decks.

- I should have completely bubble wrapped my units of 40. That would have theoretically made a difference, until the double turn hit.

- Choosing to go first or second is a huge advantage . Might be wise to drop the catapults to stick a battalion in there. That said, even with a battalion, I still have an extra 2-3 heros that aren't part of the battalion. Means going first (or second) isn't guaranteed.

- I'm taking the Plague Priest on Plague Furnace every game from now on, simply because the Italian guys had such an issue with the triple prayer. Because of my pugnaciousness , the Plague Priest on Plague Furnace, did two mortal wounds to itself before catching the Neverplague in some sort of cosmic joke .

Yuck!

 

[Rubencm81]

2 hours ago, HorseOnABeachBall said:

AoS is a bad game. I typed out a big list of pros and cons, but at its core boils down to it just being a bad game.

Don't get surprised if you get a warning for that.

 

2 hours ago, HorseOnABeachBall said:

Its totally my fault for bringing one of the worst armies in the game, against one of the best armies in the game. I get that.

According to some people, there's no difference between armies, everything is valve. I will keep my opinion to myself.

[Rubencm81]

Can you paste the ironjaws list?

[13on2D6]

A number of questions for you to consider around how you played against Ironjaws.

Ironjaws IMO are far from top tier and you need to play to your strengths and their weaknesses. The game of AoS is about objective play and not always about smashing face. I have won a number of games where I got tabled but won on the objective. The double turn mechanic is very good IMO, you need to analyse the situation and your turn and prepare for the fact you could be double turned or you could get the double turn. 

1. What objective was it? Did you deploy and plan for this? (This is crucial- play the objective game!)

2. How did you deploy? Against potential alpha strike armies deploy deep, use terrain, use shield and road block units where you can to mitigate damage

3.If you had first turn did you advance towards your opponent?

[shadowgra]

I really don't think aos is a bad game. It gives you a ton of flexibility and the double turn is what defines the game. Ad you said you could have b-wrapped your monks and IJ wouldn't have been able to wipe them out. This way you have a lesson learned for your next game. 

I am not a pestilens player (i play Nurgle) but if i were in you i will maximise monks to the next level. You won't be able to kill 2+r1 but everything else is gonna struggle against 160 or so monks on the field.

May i suggest you to include a 320 points in allied plague toads? They dish out the tankiness and screening you need against double turn. Also they are faster 

[shadowgra]

I really don't think aos is a bad game. It gives you a ton of flexibility and the double turn is what defines the game. Ad you said you could have b-wrapped your monks and IJ wouldn't have been able to wipe them out. This way you have a lesson learned for your next game. 

I am not a pestilens player (i play Nurgle) but if i were in you i will maximise monks to the next level. You won't be able to kill 2+r1 but everything else is gonna struggle against 160 or so monks on the field.

May i suggest you to include a 320 points in allied plague toads? They dish out the tankiness and screening you need against double turn. Also they are faster than monks, making you overall better at taking obj

[tolstedt]

Many armies lose when getting double turned by the ironjawz!

[Mayple]

This is both a suggestion and a question, because I'm not sure how much mobility Ironjaws have nowadays.

Would it not be better to have stayed your ground on the first turn? Or even moved backwards if possible? Sure, he got double turn, but moving forward on turn 1 is generally self-destructing unless you have a solid plan to follow. 

Bubblewrapping your big unit is correct, yes, but it goes deeper than that. Small 10-man units, or the smallest alternative, are built for theese situations. Roadblocks. This involves putting a small unit forward, spread wide, followed by a second unit going not as far forward, spread wide. If you want a safe coverage, both of them go equally far forward and spread out like a thin wall. 

Ironjaws have no flying, outside of mawcrusha, or teleporting, so wherever they go, they have to go THROUGH. 

So you have three lines. Sacrificial line - inspiring presence red fever line- rest of your army.

The first line will die no matter what. Then they have to work to hit the second line, and you'll still be bubblewrapped if they pass that and hit your core. On your turn, you blow up the mawcrusha with catapults, prayers, etc, then move onto brutes (while tying up cavalry) while the artillery looks for anything 10+ to restore your number advantage. If he brought ardboyz, this is target number two for catapults. Mawcrusha is high priority. If he even brought that. 

 

Note that Ironjaws have a much larger base size than most. This means that they are easier to 'trip' into a bad formation where they can't get much done. Additionally, they have no shooting outside of allies, so they are forced to fight you the way you want them to.

Netlists don't autowin battles, and while they do help, the player is the deciding factor. Some armies, like Ironjawz, are more punishing of mistakes, and adding in how Pestilens is a glass cannon army, the misplay made turned into a quick loss. This is not because Pestilens is weak. Even a Siberian tiger looks weak if it runs face-first into a rhino

[Uveron]

When you know there is the possibility of a Double turn you have to prepare for it. You can start preparing for it at deployment by asking your opponent the number of drops (Min/Max) he has. 

If he has the chance of a Double turn, ask youself how bad it will be. If its Bad presume he is going to get it and get yourself set up to take it, and hope the Double turn on 3 to 4. 

[HorseOnABeachBall]

Good points, all of you and thanks.

 

4 hours ago, Rubencm81 said:

Warning for that 

 

Really? Meh, I found it a valid criticism. There's a lot that could be retroported back from 40k to make it a better game.

4 hours ago, Rubencm81 said:

According to some people, there's no difference between armies, everything is valve. I will keep my opinion to myself.

Defintely not. Some armies teleport, some armies don't. Some armies were written for the new edition , some armies were not.

 

2 hours ago, shadowgra said:

I really don't think aos is a bad game. It gives you a ton of flexibility and the double turn is what defines the game. Ad you said you could have b-wrapped your monks and IJ wouldn't have been able to wipe them out. This way you have a lesson learned for your next game. 

Yeah, lesson learned for sure. 

The bad game comment wasn't made on the fly. There's a systemic problem that can lead to an NPE if a player can only play 1 turn. Is it what defines AoS? It doesn't have to be. GW has shown that it's willing to make changes relatively quickly now. That might be a result of their employees being less than 50 years old and having computers/being more tech aware.

[HorseOnABeachBall]

Allright , getting ready to head into Rnd 7. Wish me luck!

[HorseOnABeachBall]

5 hours ago, 13on2D6 said:

A number of questions for you to consider around how you played against Ironjaws.

Ironjaws IMO are far from top tier and you need to play to your strengths and their weaknesses. The game of AoS is about objective play and not always about smashing face. I have won a number of games where I got tabled but won on the objective. The double turn mechanic is very good IMO, you need to analyse the situation and your turn and prepare for the fact you could be double turned or you could get the double turn. 

1. What objective was it? Did you deploy and plan for this? (This is crucial- play the objective game!)

2. How did you deploy? Against potential alpha strike armies deploy deep, use terrain, use shield and road block units where you can to mitigate damage

3.If you had first turn did you advance towards your opponent?

 1. Was the scenario with 4 objectives that could be autocapped by units of 20+

2. I deployed with a unit of 20, unit of 40 and a character in each 1/3 of the table.

3. I did. I guessing I shouldn't have

 

I've got a rematch in about an hour.

[LLC]

2 hours ago, HorseOnABeachBall said:

 1. Was the scenario with 4 objectives that could be autocapped by units of 20+

2. I deployed with a unit of 20, unit of 40 and a character in each 1/3 of the table.

3. I did. I guessing I shouldn't have

 

I've got a rematch in about an hour.

Like shadowgra, I play nurgle but am really looking into pestillens and have run a couple matches w them. Units of 20 I believe should be avoided. run 10s for sacrifice line and 40s to hurt. I understand for the scenario 20+ was appealing but don't let the scenario change how you play. (For example: plaguebearers are garbage in groups of 20, its strictly 10 or 30 groups. No scenario is going to change that.)

 

Don't get discouraged!! Aos is about finesse and actually being a good general of your troops. You got this.

[HorseOnABeachBall]

Another loss , 0-7. Did better but a few critical  rolls swung his way (scored 3 off a captured objective of mine ).  A few thoughts while still fresh in my mind.

-Ran the battalion which helped me choose 1rst or second.

- ran two furnaces , its still probably 1 too many. Feel that I still  need a tanky champ for objective grabbing.

- more monks , more better

- I ran 3x10, 3x20 and 3x40

- I was more conscious about bubble wrapping my big blocks and it worked. 

- I Great Plagued his general off the table with 6 mortal wounds

 

 

[Naflem]

On 11/11/2017 at 12:43 PM, LLC said:

Like shadowgra, I play nurgle but am really looking into pestillens and have run a couple matches w them. Units of 20 I believe should be avoided. run 10s for sacrifice line and 40s to hurt. I understand for the scenario 20+ was appealing but don't let the scenario change how you play. (For example: plaguebearers are garbage in groups of 20, its strictly 10 or 30 groups. No scenario is going to change that.)

 

Don't get discouraged!! Aos is about finesse and actually being a good general of your troops. You got this.

20's are not bad in my feeling.  They have the size to bring the hurt when they are buffed on.  40 is hard to bring everyone into combat anyway.  In my mind, 40 isn't about combat effectiveness, it's about point effectiveness for the massive regiment discount.  I'm still struggling with whether two 20 units monks are good for the versatility while having enough glass cannon bomby-ness, or if it's better to grab them in one 40 for the points discount.  Maybe @James McPherson can give us some thoughts... 

[stratigo]

On 11/11/2017 at 8:02 AM, Uveron said:

When you know there is the possibility of a Double turn you have to prepare for it. You can start preparing for it at deployment by asking your opponent the number of drops (Min/Max) he has. 

If he has the chance of a Double turn, ask youself how bad it will be. If its Bad presume he is going to get it and get yourself set up to take it, and hope the Double turn on 3 to 4. 

 

and then you lose on points. THe double turn is stupid strong. Too strong

[tolstedt]

23 minutes ago, stratigo said:

 

THe double turn is stupid strong. Too strong

This has not at all been been my experience having played 100 games of Sigmar.

[Uveron]

1 hour ago, tolstedt said:

This has not at all been been my experience having played 100 games of Sigmar.

I agree, becuse its not just one player who gets the option for a double turn, the double on 2/3 is just as useful if you withstand the 1/2 double. 

And without the double, the the alpha strike list wins. 

[stratigo]

9 minutes ago, Uveron said:

I agree, becuse its not just one player who gets the option for a double turn, the double on 2/3 is just as useful if you withstand the 1/2 double. 

And without the double, the the alpha strike list wins. 

An alpha strike list usually works either way. I like going first, I like going second.

[James McPherson]

5 hours ago, Naflem said:

20's are not bad in my feeling.  They have the size to bring the hurt when they are buffed on.  40 is hard to bring everyone into combat anyway.  In my mind, 40 isn't about combat effectiveness, it's about point effectiveness for the massive regiment discount.  I'm still struggling with whether two 20 units monks are good for the versatility while having enough glass cannon bomby-ness, or if it's better to grab them in one 40 for the points discount.  Maybe @James McPherson can give us some thoughts... 

they all do different things, ideally I keep a spread of 10's (for objective holding) 20's (for killing stuff in one round of combat) and 40s (for staying alive for more than one round of combat where an objective is being contested or where they need to push on to a second target (outside the reach of inspiring presence) or if they need to advance against gunfire etc.

A unit of 20 is enough to kill more or less anything in the game if used with all the buffs on, ie with re-rolls to hit/wound (plague tome) +2 attacks (charging + corruptor) and +2 or +3 to wound (stack Wither) + icon of pestilence + contagion banner + rabid fever. thats 80 attacks first of all then another 80 when they die, doing minus 1 rend on a 3+ t/wound and potentially getting off about 10-20 mortal wounds too from the contagion banner, and then another 2 or 3 from the infected blood splashback. They die in one round of combat though, or if they go below twenty they don't really have enough ummph to kill anything big or tanky . so they are a one shot kamikaze use.

 

units of 40 are really good though...hard not to take a few, all my lists have had 3 in them so far, The Strength in Numbers special rule in the allegiance ability is the strongest improvement to their rules in GHB'17 so far for me

 

[HorseOnABeachBall]

Fellas....I just won 3 games in a row!!!!!! *head explodes*

 

battle reports to come 

[HorseOnABeachBall]

Allright, I'm up to game 11 now, so I'll try to keep  the reports brief.

I've switched the army so that all plague monks are in units of 20. Its a little bit of goldilocks syndrome, but for me 20 is just right. 10 become ineffective too quickly and units of 40 tend to not bring their full weight upon the enemy. I've had my units of 40 hit really hard and break as easy as a unit of 20.  I digress. Ive been setting up the army in 3  rows of 3 units. The front sacrificial unit, the actual hammer unit, and the "things have gone dreadfully wrong" reserve unit as the third line. Each unit is setup 3.5 inches behind the front line of the unit in front of it and the support characters are set up so that they're about 13 from the front line. Each third of the table gets 3 units of 20. So a total of 180 monks on the table. I've also been running the battalion as well. Makes it a 4 drop army. Ive got 6 shots at a great plague a turn, and a decent possibility to stack withers.

- Corruptor , Master Of Rot and Ruin

- Furnace , Liber Bubonicus

- Plague Priest

-Plague Priest , Fulminator ( have completely forgotten to use this every game)

-9 x 20 plague monks

- Congregation of Filth

 

Game 7 vs. Skryre Loss

I cover the board well, and the Skryre army puts all its eggs in one basket of 6 stormfiends backed up with all the bells and whistles and some warmachines to boot. I let him go first and he advances within striking range of my first line. Skryre shooting is intense , with poison wind mortars just devastating my units. If I get the double turn, the game would end instantly, as I'd have 40 monks on his fiends with 3+ withers stacked on top. He gets lucky, avoids the double turn, and manages to start mashing apart my units. Its a fracass, but the storm fiends are down to 2 wounded models. A few of my depleted units have broken into his backfield and managed to kill off all of his warmachines, sack 2 objectives , and kill off all but 1 character. He goes for a hail mary, needing a 9 on two dice, then 5+ to tie the game. His hail mary connects and ties the game up. We go to army points and the game is his.

Game 8 vs. Fyreslayers Loss

Details are a bit fuzzy, but I manage to shred a ridiculous amount of slayers. Unfortunately , he's penned me in with first turn deepstrike charges and stops me from scoring in time. He's got a bret general on a pegasus that retreats from a combat and rolls high enough to steal an objective away from me. Damn.

 

Game 9 vs. KO WIN

Oh my.... KO are massively out numbered and choose to hug a piece of terrain that lets him reroll failed wounds. He gets unlucky and rolls a 1 for his boat, which incapacitates him. He shoots about a third of my army off the table, but the comet has landed  far, far away from him. I'm up to 11 points by the time hes in position to score. Out of the roughly 80 monks coming at him, 6 get through. Its a good 6 though and they shred those pesky dwarves. The other half of the army is chasing comets. Highlights include my Plague Furnace successfully praying for 2 pestilent breaths and dropping 6 mortal wounds on the KO from 15" away. If I had gotten a great plague it would have been absolutely devastating for him. Score gets to 19 to 5 ish and KO concedes. WAHOOOOOO!!!!! The drought has officially ended

 

Game 10. vs Seraphon WIN

 

Its against that Lord Kroak/vortex list that did really well in the GT scene. He tries some really weird jank and teleports Kroak in front of my army. He tries to summon vortex, but rolls terribly. He rerolls, but again, catches 1's and 2's.  The rest of his army is there to support this weird combo, but can't. It sits in the backfield as a million monks swarm the objectives . Quick opponent scoop. I'll take the win.

 

Game 11 vs Serapon WIN

 

Its a rematch against a more finely tuned Kroak list, but luck is not with the cold ones today and their ancestral enemies dine on cold blooded flesh. Kroak gets the vortex off, but my corruptor is within dispel range. I roll just enough to dispel the vortex. He sets up a charge with his ripperdactyls, but lady luck gives him snake eyes for charging 1,1. LOOOOOL. A unit of 14 fully buffed monks grab the rippers and kill them off with 56 attacks. The rest of the army is swarming the objectives and the game ends brutally quick.

 

Post game thoughts

- Corrupter has actually been paying off. He's a fairly mobile force multiplier with a solid range buff.

- No ones quite sure what to do about the Furnace. The model looks threatening, so tends to attract attention. The fact that the KO player was scared of it won me the game. Had he not worried about it, he could have killed off 90% of my monks.

- Church of Contagion's 6++ ward save actually saves a good number of monks.

- 20 monks spread out 20x1, at exactly 1" apart, makes for a massive screen. Spread out 2 units like this and you'll surely tilt some opponents.

- Everything in the army is ultimately expendable. Feeling like I don't particularly need any 1 combo or unit as a win condition.

[Uveron]

Sounds Great! 

Have you used the Plaugeclaw catapults? It looks like one of the common theams is people getting away from your army. Some range could be useful! 

[Kramer]

Well done! Great to read how you keep tweaking your lists until you manage to grab some wins! Pestilence seem to be a very tricky faction to play, so good on you! 

[Mayple]

Glad to see you making good use of the (what I've come to calling it) onion formation (the triple-layered defence) and the multiple units of 20. It is as you say, an expendable approach that allows you so much flexibility. 

A word of note, since somebody suggested the plagueclaws - my favorite artillery - it can go horribly horribly wrong. My own mixed Skaven list which brings 3 plagueclaws along, and relies on them to do work, was forced to concede after all three of them missed everything two rounds in a row, followed by my five (FIVE!) spell output also Botching both rounds. Comparable to failing all your prayers two rounds in a row. 

So keep that in mind if you get more than one. Relying on them puts you at the mercy of the dice gods

Congratz on the winstreak!