Lets Chat: Darkling Covens

[Kyriakin]

I think the question should always be "What would a competitive GA: Order player ever consider taking from Darkling Covens?".

I think the answer boils down to Executioners and, to a lesser extent, the foot Sorceress. Therefore, I feel it makes sense to go in fairly hard on these two warscrolls.

Beyond that, the SoBD, unfortunately, picks herself as the only high-wound General option (you need to keep the General alive in order to run-and-charge the Executioners, etc.), as well as a bit of chaff to protect your expensive Executioner investment and serve as sacrifices for casting.

Darkling Covens lack a lot, but speed and durability is where they really struggle. The latter can be somewhat offset through spells, abilities and equipment (e.g. Tyrannical Ruler, Shadowshroud Ring, Impossibly Swift, Mystic Shield, etc), with the mobility issue being somewhat improved via Command Underlings, Kill Them Now!, Decanter of Egos and, especially, the Darkling Covens' ally options.

Aside from the SoBD (who needs to stay close to those who she is buffing, and would die quickly out on her own anyway), there is nothing that can get out of deployment zone quickly. This is why I feel that allying in cavalry makes the most sense, and the Stormcast toys are just better than those formerly belonging to the Dark Elves.

If Warhost-sized battles were more of a thing, I would love to go double Tempestor. What sets them aside from other debuffers is that the debuff is 100% guaranteed. No pre-requisite dice rolls, no casting, no unbinding and no requirement to wound (etc.), as you still make the enemy "minus 1 to hit in shooting and combat" even if you miss all of the shots.

This is a true point-and-click ability that can help keep Executioners alive, which is, frankly, the sole aim of this entire faction.

[Twitch of Izalith]

Has anyone checked out the new Dark Elf Compendium for Warhammer legends yet?

I have done a mini review in the General Discussion section. Its generally really good and what we all wish Darkling Covens had been. Executioners with -2 rend and 2 damage anyone?

Sorceress on black dragon and the other sorceress options are still a bit rubbish but hey, you can't have everything right? Particularly not with GW spin off rule sets

So stoked about this AoS rules with WFB lore and armies is the perfect combination for me  

[Morhgoz]

I did buy huge 6th edition DE army from friend few years ago. I thing I can build thrall warhost about size of 2000 points from it with maybe some other aelfs up to 3000+ points. Is thrall warhost any good? I dont have actual executioners, but I got unit of Mengil's Manhides, which could be used as one as they all have 2handed swords and the models are damn nice! Btw, do manhides still have rules? I also have converted dark riders (glade riders) and lots some corsairs and I have planned building ellyrian reavers, which are in swifthawk agents(?) from glade riders as I have lots of those unbuild...

[syph0n]

6 hours ago, Morhgoz said:

I did buy huge 6th edition DE army from friend few years ago. I thing I can build thrall warhost about size of 2000 points from it with maybe some other aelfs up to 3000+ points. Is thrall warhost any good? I dont have actual executioners, but I got unit of Mengil's Manhides, which could be used as one as they all have 2handed swords and the models are damn nice! Btw, do manhides still have rules? I also have converted dark riders (glade riders) and lots some corsairs and I have planned building ellyrian reavers, which are in swifthawk agents(?) from glade riders as I have lots of those unbuild...

Manhides have rules in the new Legends release mentioned by @Twitch of Izalithabove. Not for matched points games however. 

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Morhgoz Yeah Mengils Manflayers just got AoS rules today . Gives me high hopes that Skarloks Wood Elf Archers and Rugluds Armoured Orcs will also be resurrected with the other original regiments of renown.

[Morhgoz]

2 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Morhgoz Yeah Mengils Manflayers just got AoS rules today . Gives me high hopes that Skarloks Wood Elf Archers and Rugluds Armoured Orcs will also be resurrected with the other original regiments of renown.

I did build troggoth list with warscroll builder and did notice armoured crossbow orcs in orcs & goblins leaf. So I think Rugluds boyz are back!

But I think Manhides are perfect count as executioners for full older models thrall warhost. Actually oldest modeo in it is DE sorceress from orginal Warhammer Quest...

[Kaleun]

21 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Has anyone checked out the new Dark Elf Compendium for Warhammer legends yet?

I have done a mini review in the General Discussion section. Its generally really good and what we all wish Darkling Covens had been. Executioners with -2 rend and 2 damage anyone?

Sorceress on black dragon and the other sorceress options are still a bit rubbish but hey, you can't have everything right? Particularly not with GW spin off rule sets

So stoked about this AoS rules with WFB lore and armies is the perfect combination for me  

Checked it out and am really excited about it :-)

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Reinvigorated with Darkling Covens.  The upcoming changes should help keep our Sorceresses a little more safe, and not having to rely on Thrall Warhost (unless points will be changed) for a 1-drop list to remain competitive*.  Some list idea:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos 
Sorceress (80)
Sorceress (80)
40 x Bleakswords (360)
20 x Darkshards (200)
20 x Darkshards (200)
30 x Black Guard (430)
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
- Allies
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
- Allies
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 240 / 400
Wounds: 149
 

I was thinking about grabbing another sorceress, and dropping some Darkshards/Heartrenders to get a unit of Executioners.  I just felt that in the current setup, it was too easy to have the 180pt unit of Executioners debuffed with -1 to hit.  Was also debating going Khinerai-heavy to fill up the entire 400pts of allies, since they're going to add great mobility and disruption, while being able to rely on unshakable squads of swords/spears/shards.  A little hero-light, but I feel like when the new edition of AoS drops, the auto-run 6" ability will work very well, considering Darkling Covens grants a run + charge with their Command Ability.  Decanter + 6" run = Automatic 15" movement to a 2d6" charge that can be rerollable from musician.

[Twitch of Izalith]

9 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Reinvigorated with Darkling Covens. 

Me too   and GA Order mixed elf builds. Daughters of Khaine are fun - and my original AoS army - but I really enjoy playing using stuff that very few other people are fielding so I keep going back to the DC and other dark elf subfactions. 

I've not actually thought about the new rules much yet. We have just taken the attitude that we will stop playing matched play until 2nd edition drops and concentrate on 40k and Warhammer Fantasy. 

I'm desperately hoping that somebody has been looking after the Darkling Covens in the 2018 Generals Handbook and that we will see SoBD and shards/spears/swords drop in cost. 

What sort of lists are you up against mostly? If you are worried about -1 to hit nerfing  the executioners how come you are not worried about it nerfing the 400 points of darkshards? There are more -1 to hit against shooting.  I generally run at least 40 executioners and I have only been seriously hurt by minus to hit modifiers against Nurgle. I always get nervous when people talk about this with executioners - like they know something I missed lol  

I would ditch the shards and the balewind and take another 30 Black guard and another 5 Heartrenders if you are determined to avoid executioners. 

I'm just starting to build up a bleakswords unit. I only had spear and xbow models before but my spears suffer if I need to move them and the xbows never do anything useful so I'm going to try the bleakswords . How are they doing for you?

[Morhgoz]

I have quite lot of old spear- and xbow elfs, for swordelfs I would have to convert them from spearelfs. As my DE army fully 6th edition models expect some older character models...

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

4 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Me too   and GA Order mixed elf builds. Daughters of Khaine are fun - and my original AoS army - but I really enjoy playing using stuff that very few other people are fielding so I keep going back to the DC and other dark elf subfactions. 

I've not actually thought about the new rules much yet. We have just taken the attitude that we will stop playing matched play until 2nd edition drops and concentrate on 40k and Warhammer Fantasy. 

I'm desperately hoping that somebody has been looking after the Darkling Covens in the 2018 Generals Handbook and that we will see SoBD and shards/spears/swords drop in cost. 

What sort of lists are you up against mostly? If you are worried about -1 to hit nerfing  the executioners how come you are not worried about it nerfing the 400 points of darkshards? There are more -1 to hit against shooting.  I generally run at least 40 executioners and I have only been seriously hurt by minus to hit modifiers against Nurgle. I always get nervous when people talk about this with executioners - like they know something I missed lol  

I would ditch the shards and the balewind and take another 30 Black guard and another 5 Heartrenders if you are determined to avoid executioners. 

I'm just starting to build up a bleakswords unit. I only had spear and xbow models before but my spears suffer if I need to move them and the xbows never do anything useful so I'm going to try the bleakswords . How are they doing for you?

Idoneth, Sylvaneth, Death, Chaos (cunning deceiver), all debuff hit rolls.  I still see Executioners as very good, but without a +hit bonus, I think Blood Sisters have a better output potential.  Blackguard even debuffed to hit on 4+ rerolling 1's and buffed to reroll 1's to wound 3+ will give more output imo.  The Heartrenders are just too good and fill in the lack of flying/flanking.  I know we have the decanter to run + charge ability, but when using blobs of infantry, it's tough to get all of them where you want to I'd think.  No shame in stringing a line of 30 Blackguard across a flank and deleting 2 units or so  I can only see Darkling Covens getting stronger in the new book, especially with the penalty to shooting the Sorceress when near massed infantry, coupled with Word of Pain.  Boosting the casting rolls and taking 4 wizards so that every turn you can pump out every spell, seems like a good idea.  The most I've gotten is 5 mortal wounds from SoBD Bladewind, but along with Arcane Bolt and Word of Pain, there is great potential for mortal wounds without needing a hit roll.

[GammaMage]

So this happened. Puts a slight damper on armies which rely on Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield a lot.

[Twitch of Izalith]

9 minutes ago, GammaMage said:

So this happened. Puts a slight damper on armies which rely on Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield a lot.

That is NOT so good for our poor over-costed under-powered sorceresses!

@Black_Fortress_Immortal I haven't fought Idoneth yet or read much about them - they are too Disney Warhammer for my tastes - so I don't know how much -1 they get. The others have not been a huge problem so far. the negatives are either spell based, limited to one round, limited to one unit at a time etc

I think its because my whole army (my old competitive list anyway) is executioners and dragons   Its difficult to debuff all my units all the time. Unless your army is plague bearers... It would have more impact if you only had 1 unit because it would be an obvious target.

I agree Bloodsisters are potentially better all round elite troops but I think I would just run DoK at that point. Black Guard are awesome - I wish they had 2 damage like the Naggaroth version though  

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

That is NOT so good for our poor over-costed under-powered sorceresses!

@Black_Fortress_Immortal I haven't fought Idoneth yet or read much about them - they are too Disney Warhammer for my tastes - so I don't know how much -1 they get. The others have not been a huge problem so far. the negatives are either spell based, limited to one round, limited to one unit at a time etc

I think its because my whole army (my old competitive list anyway) is executioners and dragons   Its difficult to debuff all my units all the time. Unless your army is plague bearers... It would have more impact if you only had 1 unit because it would be an obvious target.

I agree Bloodsisters are potentially better all round elite troops but I think I would just run DoK at that point. Black Guard are awesome - I wish they had 2 damage like the Naggaroth version though  

80pts is not overcosted, lol.  Being able to sacrifice a model for +2 cast is a MASSIVE bonus and places them on a balewind with a shadowshroud ring very easily.

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Black_Fortress_Immortal I was more in mind of the SoBD who IS over costed.  Even so I don't see any of my opponents particularly terrified of me casting Word of Pain on them. Its a good spell but you can only cast it once.

Hopefully the new magic rules will make casting more interesting and powerful for the Darkling Covens - they should be all about sorcery since the only heroes they have are wizards.

 

[GammaMage]

How are Idoneth Disney? They are aelves with souls tainted by Slaanesh who hide in mist, rip out people's souls, and feed them to their children. They also blind their mounts and magically force them to obey, because animals can tell they're messed up and want nothing to do with them.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

6 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Black_Fortress_Immortal I was more in mind of the SoBD who IS over costed.  Even so I don't see any of my opponents particularly terrified of me casting Word of Pain on them. Its a good spell but you can only cast it once.

Hopefully the new magic rules will make casting more interesting and powerful for the Darkling Covens - they should be all about sorcery since the only heroes they have are wizards.

 

Word of pain is great, imo, and opponents really don't like it going off.  It negates a bunch of effects that go off on a 6+, and is great on their deathstar/vanguard unit, and is now even better to throw on sniper units so they'll have a -2 to hit against your "lookout sir" guarded hero.

I also agree that the new spell rules favor us, since sacrifice boosts our global cast by +2 reliably, and will make it harder to dispel.  When your Dreadspears/Bleakswords cost 9pts/model, meh toss them out to boost that crucial roll.

[Twitch of Izalith]

16 hours ago, GammaMage said:

How are Idoneth Disney? They are aelves with souls tainted by Slaanesh who hide in mist, rip out people's souls, and feed them to their children. They also blind their mounts and magically force them to obey, because animals can tell they're messed up and want nothing to do with them.

Lol i dunno, because they are riding about on fish and sea turtles?! I just think the "army" looks ridiculous. the sea shell armour, the helmets that look like a 1960's  biscuit tin, the guy with his pet octopus, the dude dangling off his water cloak. It all looks really dumb to me. It looks like it fell off a merry-go-round at sea world.

Some of the background does sound pretty cool from what I have heard - I listened to the Garagehammer review - but the aether sea? I'm not buying that at all. And them fleeing into the deep oceans where the light can't reach (and therefore the pressure is enough to crush pretty much anything). They bring the same wrecked ship everywhere with them? really? 

It doesn't matter if they have a really dark background if they look like a cartoon.. or if aspects of them are just too far fetched for me to be willing to suspend my disbelief. 

Its all just too much for my tastes. 

But hey, lots of people think think they are great so i'm glad that they are out there for all the people who wanted this sort of thing, I just don't like them myself.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

48 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Lol i dunno, because they are riding about on fish and sea turtles?! I just think the "army" looks ridiculous. the sea shell armour, the helmets that look like a 1960's  biscuit tin, the guy with his pet octopus, the dude dangling off his water cloak. It all looks really dumb to me. It looks like it fell off a merry-go-round at sea world.

Some of the background does sound pretty cool from what I have heard - I listened to the Garagehammer review - but the aether sea? I'm not buying that at all. And them fleeing into the deep oceans where the light can't reach (and therefore the pressure is enough to crush pretty much anything). They bring the same wrecked ship everywhere with them? really? 

It doesn't matter if they have a really dark background if they look like a cartoon.. or if aspects of them are just too far fetched for me to be willing to suspend my disbelief. 

Its all just too much for my tastes. 

But hey, lots of people think think they are great so i'm glad that they are out there for all the people who wanted this sort of thing, I just don't like them myself.

I agree 100%.  The models look so goofy and ridiculous.  A giant sea turtle floating through the air because, uh magic?  2 sleeveless elves riding on top of a shark with a blindfold on them?  An octopus hugging a guy who's busy writing on parchment?  These are by far the worst new models they've released in AoS, and possibly the models that I hate the most in their entire line.

[syph0n]

I like the Idoneth, but they are not the aesthetic I liked the dark elves for in the first place. However, I think they're cool looking - I love the turtle and the Storm aspect which looks suitably darker. The Namarti are excellent too IMO. However, I'm not so keen on how muscular the Akhelians look compared to other aelves. 

Speaking of buffing casts, can the sorceress technically sacrifice from atop of the Balewind?

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

4 minutes ago, syph0n said:

I like the Idoneth, but they are not the aesthetic I liked the dark elves for in the first place. However, I think they're cool looking - I love the turtle and the Storm aspect which looks suitably darker. The Namarti are excellent too IMO. However, I'm not so keen on how muscular the Akhelians look compared to other aelves. 

Speaking of buffing casts, can the sorceress technically sacrifice from atop of the Balewind?

No, the model must be within 3", and a Balewind Vortex prevents anything from being within 3" of it.

However, the first turn you sacrifice a model you get a +2 for the hero phase, you can cast Balewind Vortex to get another +1, and if you have the appropriate artifact or command trait, you can possibly get another +1-2 for a total of +5 to cast.  I typically just sacrifice, then cast Balewind for the the +3 to cast my Word of Pain, and then pop Shadowshroud Ring afterwards to make sure that she won't get sniped.

[syph0n]

6 minutes ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

No, the model must be within 3", and a Balewind Vortex prevents anything from being within 3" of it.

However, the first turn you sacrifice a model you get a +2 for the hero phase, you can cast Balewind Vortex to get another +1, and if you have the appropriate artifact or command trait, you can possibly get another +1-2 for a total of +5 to cast.  I typically just sacrifice, then cast Balewind for the the +3 to cast my Word of Pain, and then pop Shadowshroud Ring afterwards to make sure that she won't get sniped.

That's what I thought, thanks for clarifying. Can the sorceress still use the sacrifice outside of Darkling Coven allegiance? For example, in a mixed order army, can she still sacrifice darkshards etc because of the keywords?

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

9 hours ago, syph0n said:

That's what I thought, thanks for clarifying. Can the sorceress still use the sacrifice outside of Darkling Coven allegiance? For example, in a mixed order army, can she still sacrifice darkshards etc because of the keywords?

The ability has nothing to do with allegiance, it's on the warscroll, and you can sacrifice the darkshards, etc.

[syph0n]

Excellent, as I thought. Thanks for your help. 

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

4 hours ago, syph0n said:

Excellent, as I thought. Thanks for your help. 

Yes, I definitely was a fan of going Sorceress-heavy to pump out ranged mortal wounds every turn, but I'm looking forward to what they'll be like in the next edition.  We usually keep Sorceress within 3" of a unit for sacrificial purposes, so we can benefit from Look Out Sir!