Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[Killax]

@gertat those look wicked! Do think youll have mad fun anyway! Which is the point offcourse

[gertat]

To bad you can only field 4 Behemoths

Sorry for the bad picture Its 3 Bloodthirsters, 1 Chimera and 1 Jabberslythe

[Arkiham]

Linking this here as it's a really good write up, it's a lot to read but worth it 

Good job @Killax

[Retro]

9 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Linking this here as it's a really good write up, it's a lot to read but worth it 

Good job @Killax

A lot to read but still less than 97 pages of let's chat: khorne!

good job @Killax. I'll be keeping a close eye on this one

[Uveron]

So after Reading the start of @Killax's Tactica thread an idear hit me. 

Bloodmarked Warband 

• Valkia the Bloody. 
• 4 x Blood Reavers (20) 
• Chaos Warshrine x 2 

Gore Pilgrims. 

• Bloodsecrator 
• Slaughterpriest x 3 
• 1 x Blood Reavers (20) 
• 1 Blood Warriors. 

Thats 2000pts, 2 drops, 3 artifacts, up to 5 Blood Boil attacks, and 3 totems for the extra attacks on the reavers.  

Valkia is added for her ability to fly and higher rend to snipe buffing units. 

[Killax]

14 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Linking this here as it's a really good write up, it's a lot to read but worth it 

Good job @Killax

Many thanks! Much more is to come!

5 hours ago, Retro said:

A lot to read but still less than 97 pages of let's chat: khorne!

good job @Killax. I'll be keeping a close eye on this one

Again, many thanks!  

35 minutes ago, Uveron said:

So after Reading the start of @Killax's Tactica thread an idear hit me. 

Bloodmarked Warband 

• Valkia the Bloody. 
• 4 x Blood Reavers (20) 
• Chaos Warshrine x 2 

Gore Pilgrims. 

• Bloodsecrator 
• Slaughterpriest x 3 
• 1 x Blood Reavers (20) 
• 1 Blood Warriors. 

Thats 2000pts, 2 drops, 3 artifacts, up to 5 Blood Boil attacks, and 3 totems for the extra attacks on the reavers.  

Valkia is added for her ability to fly and higher rend to snipe buffing units. 

I really like where this is going, I do think that you should try and make use of the Bloodreaver "cost discount" if possible! I do hower think this army can work out really well because you have 5 Blood Prayers available to you, 3 models of which also can use Blood Boil so that should really add up to some amazing prayer use.

- Bloodmarked Warband in this design is not 'legal' for use however! As the Battalion does require 8 Khorne marked units, you now have 7.

 

 

It's still set up to be a very interesting force. If you'd be willing to add more blocks of studier models as Bloodreavers I do think it could become a very interesting force for sure. One of the advantages I'm missing here is the design to get the best use out of the Bloodmarked Warband, for example, turning Wrathmongers into Heroes by themselves should allow you to create a very interesting sub-set of mini Wrathmonger units (Heroes). In my opinion this is where the most potential lies in that list.
 

 

On 8-10-2017 at 10:35 PM, Louzi said:

Do we know the lists of Pano and Slawek?

Thanks to @Dave Fraser we actually know what Slawek ran:
 

• Bloodsecrator (A: Brazen Rune)
• Bloodstoker
• 3  x slaughterpriests (Bronzed Flesh, 2xKilling Frenzy)
• Bloodmaster herald (General, T: Immense Power, A: Crimson Crown)
• 5 Bloodwarriors
• 20 Bloodreavers
• 10 Bloodreavers
• 3x30 Bloodletters
• Gorepilgrims
• Murderhost

This list is another good combination of Gore Pilgrims and Murderhost which we've come to know and love since the release of Blades of Khorne.
I do think this too is amongst our more potent competative Matched Play Army builds  !

As always though there are many different routes to go about it with the Khorne Allegiance. What I hope to see played more soon (after Ive explained it into detail with the Tactica) is the use of 5 Wrathmongers + 30 Bloodletters leading to a "Deathstar" that pretty much destroys what is in sight and also can often do so while being relatively undamaged (as the output can indeed become that insane). 

The set up of such a unit is relatively simple and looks like this:

While this paint-build mock up isn't the prettiest around, the set up idea is simple and has been very effective for me personally. It's wide but most tables I've played on still typically allow for one of such set ups. I have yet to experiment with two, the invest is indeed high but as long as armies run one Deathstar joining that game does not seem to be a bad plan. So what's going on here:
1. The black circles are the Wrathmongers
2. The red circles are the Bloodletters, set up in such a way the enemy cannot be within 3" of the Wrathmongers unless we want this to occur

It leads to a simple yet effective strategy:
A. The Bloodletter pretty much destroy anything in sight, assuming the Bloodsecrator is around and the Wrathmongers are in place every Bloodletter has 3 attacks, which leads to a 50/50 '6-roll' per Bloodletter in melee combat. This destroys your typical Infantry or Cavalry but also is a hazard to Monsters.
B. If casualties of Bloodletters are deemed to high, for example against Monster Generals, you can opt to retreat (in any direction, so also Objective direction) with the Bloodletters and have the opponent think about what to do when he's presented with a unit of Wrathmongers (which will likely guarantee death of the Monster General if he hits that hard).

More on it all later, it's great times to be Khorne!  

Cheers,

[Dave Fraser]

I'm trying to get my hands on Pano's list,  I heard he had 2x15 bloodwarriors in it, so something different again.

 

Got it, sans items/abilities:

• Mighty Lord of Khorne
• Bloodsecrator
• Bloodstoker
• 2 Priests
• Skullgrinder
• 2x15 Blood warriors
• 2x5 skull reapers
• 1x10 Bloodreavers
• 3 Khorgis
• Gorepilgrims

List is currently slightly over, so must have something slightly wrong, probably drop the skullgrinder

[Uveron]

2 minutes ago, Killax said:

I really like where this is going, I do think that you should try and make use of the Bloodreaver "cost discount" if possible! I do hower think this army can work out really well because you have 5 Blood Prayers available to you, 3 models of which also can use Blood Boil so that should really add up to some amazing prayer use.

- Bloodmarked Warband in this design is not 'legal' for use however! As the Battalion does require 8 Khorne marked units, you now have 7.

I woke up sneezing this morning clearly nurgel is influencing my thinking 

I had been playing around with the idea of dropping Valkia for a aspiring deathbringer, To free up more points for bigger units of reavers, Or wrathmongers... I get the trick you were trying with them, in my plan I would be just making single Hero Reavers to rush off and die for more blood tithe.

But a list with the Wrathmongers would be:  

 

Bloodmarked Warband 

• Aspiring Deathbringer. 
• 1 x Blood Reavers (40) 
• 1 x Blood Reavers (20) 
• 2 x Blood Reavers (10) 
• 1 Wrathmongers
• Chaos Warshrine x 2 

Gore Pilgrims. 

• Bloodsecrator 
• Slaughterpriest x 3 
• 1 x Blood Reavers (10) 
• 1 Blood Warriors. 

[Killax]

17 minutes ago, Dave Fraser said:

I'm trying to get my hands on Pano's list,  I heard he had 2x15 bloodwarriors in it, so something different again.

Got it, sans items/abilities:

• Mighty Lord of Khorne
• Bloodsecrator
• Bloodstoker
• 2 Priests
• Skullgrinder
• 2x15 Blood warriors
• 2x5 skull reapers
• 1x10 Bloodreavers
• 3 Khorgis
• Gorepilgrims

List is currently slightly over, so must have something slightly wrong, probably drop the skullgrinder

Again many thanks Dave! Thanks for chiming in. As above it looks like a great list to me, Gore Pilgrims and Murderhost where well represented and rightfully so. 
I indeed think the Skullgrinder would be odd for such a list. If it isn't there the list comes out at 1990 points which seems to make more sence to me.

All in all it's a good example of how Bloodbound can still be a very functional backbone to Khorne armies. I also wonder if Pano ran the Khorgoraths seperate or as a whole unit. Considering there are two Slaughterpriests in there splitting up the unit would not be a terrible idea, as they make for some great support for 15 Blood Warriors in my opinion (protecting flanks/meat shielding, you name it). 

Overall I'm very happy with the Khorne results, I hope Daniel Ford will eventually chime in with his reports too but he isn't much of a forum poster, or so it seems  

6 minutes ago, Uveron said:

I woke up sneezing this morning clearly nurgel is influencing my thinking 

I had been playing around with the idea of dropping Valkia for a aspiring deathbringer, To free up more points for bigger units of reavers, Or wrathmongers... I get the trick you were trying with them, in my plan I would be just making single Hero Reavers to rush off and die for more blood tithe.

But a list with the Wrathmongers would be:  

 

Bloodmarked Warband 

• Aspiring Deathbringer. 
• 1 x Blood Reavers (40) 
• 1 x Blood Reavers (20) 
• 2 x Blood Reavers (10) 
• 1 Wrathmongers
• Chaos Warshrine x 2 

Gore Pilgrims. 

• Bloodsecrator 
• Slaughterpriest x 3 
• 1 x Blood Reavers (10) 
• 1 Blood Warriors. 

I again really like where this is going  A ton of prayers still! Though I have to say I am a bit uncertain about the Bloodreaver underthaking (they die quick) however I also think it's mad fun and a very unique Bloodreaver orientated list.

You can't really go wrong with it from my perspective except that it might have trouble in defending Objectives, in the sence that the best your working towards to is a 4+ save with double Bronzed Flesh and a 6++ on top from the Warshrine. On the other hand, generating 4+ Bloodreaver Rend attacks a piece does contribute to deaths very well. 

I also see where you'd be going with the idea to generate more Blood Tithe points through single Bloodreavers! The set up should work out well if your opponent isn't aware of it. In either case investing into 80 Bloodreavers is not a bad idea, even if you don't end up playing this list in this specific way. 40 Bloodreavers plus a Warshrine in itself are a Deathstar aswell. 

Cheers!

[Dave Fraser]

From the picture I saw Pano ran them as a unit of 3, in the shot I saw they were touching bases.  Opponent specifically remembered the skullgrinder, so maybe it was just 15&10 bloodwarriors.  Really just tweaks to personal taste at that point.

I got a couple of updates from Dan as he went but as you say he's not the biggest of commentators on his games.  Best one was the pics from Slawek of the game between him & Dan, over 200 bloodletters on the board!

[Uveron]

4 minutes ago, Killax said:

I again really like where this is going  A ton of prayers still! Though I have to say I am a bit uncertain about the Bloodreaver underthaking (they die quick) however I also think it's mad fun and a very unique Bloodreaver orientated list.

You can't really go wrong with it from my perspective except that it might have trouble in defending Objectives, in the sence that the best your working towards to is a 4+ save with double Bronzed Flesh and a 6++ on top from the Warshrine. On the other hand, generating 4+ Bloodreaver Rend attacks a piece does contribute to deaths very well. 

I also see where you'd be going with the idea to generate more Blood Tithe points through single Bloodreavers! The set up should work out well if your opponent isn't aware of it. In either case investing into 80 Bloodreavers is not a bad idea, even if you don't end up playing this list in this specific way. 40 Bloodreavers plus a Warshrine in itself are a Deathstar aswell. 

I agree about them dieing quick. If you don't take the Wrathmongers you can push the the reaver numbers up a fair bit... 

This list idea spun off another list that used the Gore Pilgrims + the Marauder Raiders in combo. 

That list had two units of 40 Reavers, one warshrine, and a block of 20 Blood warriors as a core. Behind this 3 Priests and the Bloodsecrator stand. Then on the flanks two units of 5 Horsemen skirmish.. then 3 x 10 man units of marauders can outflank later in the battle to run on and secure objectives.  

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, Dave Fraser said:

From the picture I saw Pano ran them as a unit of 3, in the shot I saw they were touching bases.  Opponent specifically remembered the skullgrinder, so maybe it was just 15&10 bloodwarriors.  Really just tweaks to personal taste at that point.

I got a couple of updates from Dan as he went but as you say he's not the biggest of commentators on his games.  Best one was the pics from Slawek of the game between him & Dan, over 200 bloodletters on the board!

Again, thank you so much for the additional information. It's indeed also possible that he went for an additional Skullgrinder, after all it's one of the more dynamic models in Khorne too, which make it very cool to behold. Depending on how many additional attacks you give him he can also become a nice single pressurepoint model.

200+ Bloodletters on board are the types of battles that make Khorne happy ! 

Just now, Uveron said:

I agree about them dieing quick. If you don't take the Wrathmongers you can push the the reaver numbers up a fair bit... 

This list idea spun off another list that used the Gore Pilgrims + the Marauder Raiders in combo. 

That list had two units of 40 Reavers, one warshrine, and a block of 20 Blood warriors as a core. Behind this 3 Priests and the Bloodsecrator stand. Then on the flanks two units of 5 Horsemen skirmish.. then 3 x 10 man units of marauders can outflank later in the battle to run on and secure objectives.  

Yeah I absolutely think the list has it's merrits. The visual appearance of that many Bloodreavers is also very intimidating, numbers also really count for something with the Bloodmarked Warband.

If your willing to create an army that focusses on that many Bloodreavers certainly go for it! As seen above pretty any infantry heavy army supported by Gore Pilgrims can become really great and Bloodmarked Warband for sure has the most synergy with Bloodreavers. Afteral every block of 40 Bloodreavers in Bloodmarked Warband is re-rolling wounds of 1 throughout the game and it isn't impossible to think some Heroes will trigger Blood Rage.

[Uveron]

Discovering the Bloodmarked Warband has been a relation to me today, and has my brain working on a number of lists that will never see the table (as they involve models I don’t own at the moment). But I had the just had the thought of running the warband as a Chaos lord on demonic mount, and 8 Chariots.

A block of fast and tough units that can move up the table quickly, and the ways you can give the +1 Attacks to all the Chariots weapons makes them hit very hard. Then add in a Bloodletter heavy Muderhost  (Is possible to fit a Blood Throne and 8 units of 10 letters into a list) to get a spam of small units that drop in two! Though you end up wasting an artifact so I think a better build for the second battalion is needed.

[Easytyger]

3 hours ago, Killax said:

The set up of such a unit is relatively simple and looks like this:

I like to get in this exact formation when I play my mixed Khorne list. 

Of note this formation takes a turn to set up typically, So when your BLs are attacking initially your front line will most often he more than 3" away from the Wrathmongers on the turn the BLs initially charge. So your BLs have to survive a round of combat without the extra attacks, which depending on what you charged,  can be dicey for these fragile killers. I like trying to get these kind of formations to work so it's great you brought it up.

Also a big thanks to you @Killax for the Tactica thread and for all your contributions in the name of the Blood God! Cheers!

[Killax]

@Easytyger This is only the beginning but I think it will have more meaning now considering how the meta develops in certain ways. Sometimes this set up also doesnt thake a turn. For example in the case of Murderhost or when we use Murderlust (3) to set this up in a Hero phase when an opponent didnt expect it. However where we agree is that Bloodletters are more fragile as say Skullreapers or Blood Warriors which is certainly something to consider. The same tactic can obviously apply with them aswell.

Tons of tactical fun ahead, all the while Shadespires Bloodreavers are around the corner.

[Easytyger]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

@Easytyger This is only the beginning but I think it will have more meaning now considering how the meta develops in certain ways. Sometimes this set up also doesnt thake a turn. For example in the case of Murderhost or when we use Murderlust (3) to set this up in a Hero phase when an opponent didnt expect it. However where we agree is that Bloodletters are more fragile as say Skullreapers or Blood Warriors which is certainly something to consider. The same tactic can obviously apply with them aswell.

Tons of tactical fun ahead, all the while Shadespires Bloodreavers are around the corner.

Yes one way to set it up would be to use 3  tithe points to charge in the hero phase. Great idea! Still suspect that it would take a turn to setup just to acquire Bloodtithe points.  Not sure the Murderhost hero phase move will get you the setup. It would seem you could move your Letters up to 3" away from enemy but then still have to charge. Or does the Murderhost move allow you to get within 3" itself?

 

[Marc Wilson]

7 hours ago, Killax said:

I also wonder if Pano ran the Khorgoraths seperate or as a whole unit.

I played Pano at Facehammer the week before and they were a unit of 3.

[gertat]

Rules Question or rather a question about interaction between effects.

I'm a fairly new player anf I havn't played with The Crimson Crown yet.

Going to test it out this coming thursday and would like to play it the right way.

How does The Crimson Crown interact with the prayer Killing Frenzy.

If I'm not misstaken so have the Crimson Crown in the latest FAQ got altered to 6+ or more. Correct?

 

If I have all the right circumstances and har a block of 30 Bloodletters that has 2 prayers och Killing Frenzy buffs.

Thats mortal wounds on a 3+

If I roll a 3, does that trigger the effect from the Crimson Crown? Or does the pips on the die has to be 6?

If it triggers Crimson Crown does the extra attack get to hit on 3+ and does a mortal wound.

 

Know this isnt a loop that keeps on getting more and more wounds.

Thx beforehand gertat

[Killax]

@gertat you can indeed have Mortal wounds and extra attacks on 4+'s quite easily, thanks to the Crown. Keep in mind that they dont generate more attacks after the first additional :). This is why I love Khorne Allegiance Artefacts.

[Arkiham]

The +1 to hit should work that way. You can easily get it to a 4+ for mortal wounds

[Heroflegend21]

Hey guys check out these lists and tell me what you think!

 

[Killax]

@Heroflegend21 both lists look good. In terms of (Tournament play) competitive thoughts on it:
The first list contains Bloodforged but the actual benifits gained from Bloodforged are fantastic on Blood Warriors but much less amazing on Wrathmongers. As above, this doesn't make the list bad but also essentially boils down to adding 140 points to your Blood Warrior's efficiency. As discussed previously I think the Battalion comes much better the more Blood Warriors are added. A minimum of 2 units of 10+ Blood Warriors feels almost essential. Like running Murderhost with a minimum of 3 30 Bloodletter 'bombs'. There arn't many great alternatives to include other pieces for the same points though...
Artefact comments:  
- You will only have acces to 3 Artefacts, the Banner of Rage counts as an Artefact choice and as such I wouldn't pick it.
Other:
- Bloodletters can have two Icons, no reason to limit yourself to one.

The second list seems like a great combination of pieces aswell. A really interesting consideration here remains to drop the Gore Pilgrims and a single Slaughterpriest to add a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury (General) and upgrade the Bloodmaster to a Skullmaster. The prime reason as to why I would personally prefer this is because in order to optimize Gore Pilgrim's complete abilities one Slaughterpriest will likely hang out with the Bloodsecrator which in turn means you can really consider thaking a "distraction Bloodthirster" instead, though just thinking it would be just that is silly offcourse. A Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury with Immense Power and The Crimson Crown is incredibly legit.
Artefact comments:
- I believe The Crimson Crown should be the default Artefact pick for armies who have at least 3x30 Bloodletters. 
- As above, the Banner of Rage counts as an Artefact choice.
- A Slaughterpriest with Talisman of Burning Blood will likely have a better effect for you as one with a melee weapon. They really arn't build to go for melee combat and with Gore Pilgrims have even less reason to be there.
- Giving a second Slaughterpriest the Brazen Rune however allows you to auto-dispell very effectively in many games.
Other:
- Bloodletters can have two Icons, no reason to limit yourself to one.

Cheers!

[Heroflegend21]

Thanks @Killax! But you’re saying is to drop either battalion other than murderhost? And to add a bigger death star of either blood warriors or to take the Bloodthirster? I chose the bloodmaster due to his synergy of allowing a unit of blood letters to pile in and attack right after him and also with the banner do we consider the other banner as fodder for bloodtithe points as they only affect battle shock? And I picked mark of the slayer because it says you can re roll all 1’s for any Khorne unit because I’m running mixed units. And I understand the artifacts the priests have are not good because they have to be in combat and they are more support than anything!

thanks for the tips!

[Killax]

18 minutes ago, Heroflegend21 said:

Thanks @Killax! But you’re saying is to drop either battalion other than murderhost? And to add a bigger death star of either blood warriors or to take the Bloodthirster? I chose the bloodmaster due to his synergy of allowing a unit of blood letters to pile in and attack right after him and also with the banner do we consider the other banner as fodder for bloodtithe points as they only affect battle shock? And I picked mark of the slayer because it says you can re roll all 1’s for any Khorne unit because I’m running mixed units. And I understand the artifacts the priests have are not good because they have to be in combat and they are more support than anything!

thanks for the tips!

A thing I'd certainly don't want you to do is drop Murderhost! As it is one of the Battalions we have that actually rewards a multitude of played units  

What I am trying to say is don't drop either Battalion just yet.
I think the combination of Murderhost + another Battalion can be really potent but at the same time I really think that if you add a Battalion that "requires" a specific unit to be chosen in order to "optimize it's effect" double Battalions easily lead to not having enough points to exactly do that. E.g. If Murderhost + Gore Pilgrims leads to not having a functional General I wonder if the bonus of getting the first turn is really worth it.

What I'm basically trying to figure out myself since GH2017 is if we (Khorne players) can offset the first turn bonus with playing skill. (Which is the prime reason why I started to write down Tactica I sometimes have in my mind but can forget about in the heat of battle). 
The thought patron really is:
1. If we pick Allegiance Khorne we get Blood Tithe and great Artefacts (even if it's just Mark of the Destroyer, Mark of the Slayer, The Crimson Crown or Gorecleaver).
2. In order to optimize the use of Blood Tithe you still want to bring as much as units possible in a competative manner.
3. When we want more units we get into a love/hate relationship with most of our double Battalion plans...

But back on track:
- I certainly want you to keep Murderhost, I think any Bloodletter Hero is just fine.
- I wanted to highlight that a Bloodthirster can be what you seek for in this list because it flies, buffs and supports 2-3 Bloodletter bombs very well in a flexible way.
- Personally I don't think any Banner is required for any Bloodsecrator, again it thakes up an Artefact slot (we do not get it for free!)
- In any list that contains 90 Bloodletters I believe The Crimson Crown will outpreform Mark of the Slayer. I say this because you allready get the re-rolls to hit from the Daemon Hero that is near the Bloodletters. The range on that check and Mark of the Slayer is the same so other than on the charge there is no additional benifit for Bloodletters from Daemon Heroes that have Mark of the Slayer.

TLDR: Your lists are solid  I would just consider thaking a General that has a good Command Ability because it isn't out of the realm of possabilities to use it twice.
 

[Killax]

So updated a little bit of the Command Trait/Artefact Tactica today, unfortunatly lost a big part due to a bad spoiler tag placement (sometimes I dont know how this forum works  ) so will work from Word file to Forum again to make sure half an hour of work isn't lost.

In any case, like the discussion two pages ago I did ask the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Facebook page what the idea or design choice was behind the Khorne Lord on Juggernaut and Mighty Skullcrushers.
This was the awnser I was very happy with:


Prime reason I was so happy with this is that it's akin to how Khorgos Khul's initial issue was resolved. 

Now offcourse it leads to the question what about Skarr and Valkia? Though to be honest most of their editions they where present Valkia wasn't designed or played with the Daemon rules. Eventually even Skarr wasn't either in the End Times supplement. It certainly leaves these two champions in somewhat of a mixed spot but to be honest, this kind of makes sence aswell. They arn't a typical Daemon Princes(s).
- So considering the sake of consistancy, Valkia the Bloody, like Vilitch the Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch, Festus the Leechlord or Sigvald the Magnificent (now Chaos Lord of Slaanesh) in my opinion doesn't really require the Daemon Keyword, basically because she never had those abilities in Warhammer Fantasy (7th and 8th) either.
- On the subject of Skarr Bloodwrath more can be said as he was introduced with the title Daemonic Lord of Khorne. Despite that title though narrative confirms he's somewhat in between (like most exalted Chaos Lords in that regards). Due to his cool return (and not ****** summon) rules I again think he doesn't really require the Daemonic Keyword to make sence.

TLDR: With what I knew/know about Warriors of Chaos is that many of their once Mortal Lords remain somewhat in between Daemon and Mortal. The prime reason as to why I'd like to see the Daemon Keyword on the Khorne Lord on Juggernaut and Mighty Skullcrushers however is for the sake of consistancy. As per Facebook post, other Lords and Knights on their respective Daemonic Mounts kept their Mortal and Daemonic Keyword. In my coloured opinion the game would not be extremely offset if they obtained the Keyword, so I hope they will have it in the next Errata.

Cheers,