SwampHeart

Even then Bestigors so far outstrip Gors its unreal. 30 Bestigors in a Slaanesh list is one of the hardest hitting hammers in the game - Gors only saving grace is they're battle line where Bestigors aren't. Ultimately I appreciate that @Fulkes, like every other BoC player, is doing his absolute best to justify the inclusion of one of the most iconic and good looking units in the range. I think that after testing them he'll come to the same conclusion that every other BoC player has and that is they simply aren't worth fielding. When I play BoC (rarely now compared to HoS) I'd run a 10 man unit in Desolating Beastherd because its a requirement and they're a viable little screen/dire wolf equivalent. But in my experience with the book (which I consider to be a decent amount of) I've never been able to justify the inclusion of large units of Gors - I'd rather take Ungors or Bestigors every time.

Given how much I hate painting I spend basically no time on non visible details.

I agree with this general assessment. They do generate a decent volume of attacks but they're low quality - good for cleaning out screening units, other chaff, etc. However if they touch something with even reasonable damage output you're going either have to spend a CP to stop them from evaporating to battle shock or just lose the rest of whatever is lest of the unit to battle shock. I will say they do fit in well with Ssyl'Esske builds though because you can keep them in the bubble and get good RoI for your CP usage.

Why Thrill Seeker over Speed-Chaser? Run and charge is nice but retreat and charge with fly opens up a lot more tactical options. The rest of the list looks solid, I might try grabbing a 2nd unit of 20 Daemonettes by shifting around character options but that's a personal thing rather than a 'must have'. Love the list but I'd 100% make the change to pick up portals and the cavalcade. The Bladebringer is a pretty efficient summon and doesn't really need an artifact so spending to summon it in won't hurt its efficacy. Plus I think with as body light as you are you'll really want the first or 2nd choice so you can use what you've got to keep your Keepers safe for the first turn.

There are some viable builds out there that use things like Ancient Beyond Knowing on a Shaggoth or want to build with more specific artifacts in mind. I think the key is if you're going to skip Gavespawn you need a really concrete reason for doing so.

Just a few quick bullet points from me: Enjoyed the campaign story even if not particularly relevant to forces I collect Love the campaign system they have laid out, very inspirational for writing narrative stuff for my group of friends I dislike this as a mechanism for the delivery of Endless Spells. I wish they'd release the book and terrain separate from the Endless Spells. The terrain piece will likely never be used as the terrain feature but it does add for a nice piece to add to my collection\ Overall I was pretty pleased with the purchase. I did buy it from my FLGS with a discount (and using bonus money from work) so it was kind of a negligible cost for me, had I had to buy it MSRP or out of my usual hobby budget I probably would have pushed it back.

I've played against the build twice now - lost the first one, won the second. Just like @CB42 says you avoid the Deathstar and deal with the rest of the army - Vulkites are an absolute farm for DP and FS support characters are very flimsy. I think if you just stay focused on the mission and really just manging the impact of their 600 point bomb you'll win that match up more often than not. As an aside I've also found my Great Bray Shaman very useful in this match up as his warscroll spell (Devolve) is excellent for pulling apart synergy driven combos and letting you clean house.

GW's official word on one of their hobby products is hyperbolic and wrong?! *Gasp* - you worked for GW, same as me, you know how often they are internally unaware of how their own products will be used.

I've read from folks like Vince and Mengle that this isn't really the case, you're not actually supposed to just glob the stuff on.

Nothing too wild - seemingly odd nerf of Ssyl'Esske, clarified the Endless Spell question. I don't agree with the Locus/Horrible Fascination stacking answer but that is what it is. I will say some of the answers regarding fight first/last/pile in are still confusing and GW should really work on clarifying the way the subphases work.

Skaven and FEC are so bizarrely aberrant that its wild.

This has always been the case and isn't new to AoS. GW has never been particularly good at balancing games and their release schedule is a part of that. Through my history of WHFB/AoS (starting in 5th edition WHFB) there have always been haves and have nots. How people respond to this varies from person to person - some people collect different armies, some people just deal with and wait for their turn around the wheel, some people work to excel despite where their army exists in the tiers (see players who have have success with KO despite their overall power level). This is simply how GW chooses to do business - they approach their customer base from a broad angle and know that they have customers who don't care about the power level or competitive viability of their army. This isn't to suggest GW doesn't care (or does) about balance, just that they certainly understand their customer base exists in different phases of the hobby.

From my time at GW they don't really see it this way. They assume that most players identify with a faction rather than a specific list and as such will build a larger than 'single list' collection of that faction. How true that is is obviously very difficult to discern but I know that when I worked for GW many of my customers very much identified as a 'Skaven Player' or a 'High Elf Player' and bought in excess of their tournament list. Assuming that you do this (build a collection rather than a list) then GW's changes year over year have less of an impact because you have a large pool of models to select from to account for those changes. There are of course players who literally buy only a tournament list and then either sell it or only expand it when rules change and so of course their financial investment each year at GHB time is higher however as your time in the hobby lengthens this tends to be less of an issue because you simply have enough stuff to adapt to changes without new purchases. At its core there are 3 parts of the hobby and collecting is one of those parts - GW as a company still works to engage customers interested in any of the 3 given phases of the hobby.

So in my eternal quest to play as many different lists as I can and never get consistent practice with a single list I gave the following a try over the course of a few games this weekend. These were just friendly/testing games against friends rather than a tournament or anything. I picked up a win over SCE and Nurgle and lost a close game against Fyreslayers. Godseekers - Aqshy -Keeper of Secrets - Thermal Rider Cloak, Speed-Chaser, Sinistrous Hand, Slothful Stupor -Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot - Hysterical Frenzy, Enrapturing Circlet -The Contorted Epitome - Born of Damnation -Great Bray Shaman -Kairos Fateweaver -30x Bestigors -10x Ungors -10x Ungors -10x Ungors The Depraved Drove -Umbral Spell Portals -Aethervoid Pendulum 5 Drops, 110 Wounds I really like what Kairos brings to the table as an ally. While he represents a loss in DP generation both his built in MW spell and more importantly his ability to cast our spells better is amazing. Being able to push Slothful Stupor through the Spell Portals into a Stardrake during the first turn was such a clutch play for me. I've tinkered with double keepers but I think I like the Keeper/Exalted Chariot setup a little better. The Exalted Chariot is an absolutely consistent unit that can provide support for Bestigors or do an amazing job of killing off small units of things like Vulkite Berzerkers on its own. I especially like the Circlet for the Chariot - it both increases its suite of MW aura abilities and ensures you'll keep the unit you need pinned down. Unlocking access to the Epitome feels like such a big bonus for the army. It really helped me layer up my magic defense (proving utterly frustrating for my Nurgle opponent this weekend) while also giving me a strong chance to make sure my Bestigors swing first. I do think I'll probably swap the two spells I take (keeping the same spells but putting Damnation on the Chariot and Frenzy on the Epitome). Overall I really like the way this list played out, I was still in drop contention for first turn with 5 Drops (except against my Nurgle opponent). I think I'm pretty committed to the Kairos train at this doing, I've played about 6 games with him now and I just like the added tool box he represents. I think I've also had a chance to really nail down my summoning pool - having access to 30 Daemonettes, 10 Seekers, 1 Exalted Chariot, and 3 Fiends I think pretty much covers all my bases for summoning needs. Hopefully this action reports and the like help other others out to see some different ideas in action.

I'm sure with a little experimentation and time you could get that red to pop just like 30k TSons.

Looks solid - I'm curious how well do the 10 Tzaangors usually do? I most often ran them in a big 30 block to maximize their tarpit/durable nature. But other than that I see a great MSU list with lots of small but very points efficient hammers and of course the Taurus which is effectively a must take for me.

I'm also super interested in the performance of the Masque if you stick with her. She's a piece I always say 'I see value here' but never manage to actually slot into a list properly.

I like the first list out of the group the most - Slaanesh summoning is very good but you need some bodies to try and hold objectives for a few turns. I'm interested in your decision to go trail-sniffer over speed-chaser. In my experience Speed-Chaser is the go to, especially with a thermal rider cloak. The added flexibility in positioning and ensuring you are always generating an extra d3 depravity a turn seems to be well worth the trade off against potentially more attacks. I think the rest of the list is pretty steady and consistent HoS options.

I only run one so once they're gone I'm out. After that is summoned daemonettes for the rest of my needs.

Spell Portals can be really helpful, lets you get MWs through the portal and helps break screens and the like. A few folks were discussing it in the thread earlier and I've tried it since then, I think its an effective tool. I've actually be playing with a very similar list to the one Darren Watson took to BOBO (using Kairos) and its a very effective list. You obviously trade some DP generation but in exchange you get a potent caster/unbinder who has access to some very gnarly tricks.

Yeah it heavily depends on the match up. The issue is against a unit like Plague Monks most HoS armies don't have a ton of tools to deal with them. Bestigors absolutely blend them but they're a bad match up for say a Keeper and so if you lose the Bestigors before you deal with the Monks you're left holding the bag. I've been able to get around this via summoning and using it to keep the monks from coming lose.

What I mean to say is trading Bestigors for Clanrats is a bad trade. The points trade out in my favor but that's not necessarily the best way to evaluate if the trade was effective. Because what happens afterwards is I get charged by the Plague Monks behind the Clan Rats who are more offensive than Bestigors so effectively I'm trading one of my hammers for a screen. I've tended towards using the Contorted Epitome near the Bestigors to get a double chance at causing fight last to let them at least swing before the Monks go. I think this brings up an interesting point that I do find to be an overall weakness of Hedonites of Slaanesh. We aren't often able to set up favorable trades on the table. Not say we're not an incredibly offensively potent army but savvy opponents can really dictate the pace and units that are traded. I think this is probably an intentional element of design because of the potency of HoS summoning.

Marauders are, interestingly enough, super cost effective assuming both of their potential buffs go off. But I think in a more casual environment they make a fine core choice that most people should enjoy playing against.

One third place finish from a UK masters participant and a great player does not Gloomspite Gitz great make.

Ahh my mistake. Yeah that's a pretty impactful item to have on such an already durable model. Upon further inspection of Phil's list, I think its really bad formatting but I think the Suspicious Stone is on his Verminlord Warpseer.