JackOfBlades

Which ones?

Yeah, you could make it like that too. Indeed, and the point i would want to convey is for the tabletop to reflect the lore.

As a counterpoint, I want shooting into combat to stay. The game shouldnt tell me that im too worried about losing my clanrats to shoot the lord of change. Rather there should be rules in place making it effective but risky for you to shoot into combat, so that youd only want to do it with units that whose lore describes them as cannon fodder, like clanrats, or in desperate heroic moments that again reflect the lore, like self sacrifice to try and banish a greater daemon. For example: if you shoot into combat, you check whether the enemy unit or a friendly unit is closest to the shooting unit. If the enemy unit is closest, half of the misses (rounding down) hit the friendly unit. If a friendly unit is closest, all misses hit that friendly unit.

Im looking to pick up books that feature Flesh Eaters or Slaanesh. If they were the protagonists of the story that would obviously be the best, as that would teach me the most lore about them, but i will look into any story where they are more than the chaff of some other character's wheat field. Flesh eaters in particular seem to have a very bare amount of stories about them, if any at all, and im particularly interested in those courts who are opposed to or opposed by Nagash. So anyone have anything? 😁 PS. I think there should be a sticky for this topic, listing which books feature or expand on the lore of which factions.

Yeah i went back and edited my post, to say what you said here: they may errata down the point costs while simultaneously making you have to pay points for summoning. As you said, it would be an odd approach. The theory of the book being written under very heavy time constraint would make sense - either that, or that the heavy point costs are intended and will effectively stay through the revision when you add up the point reductions with the summoning cost increases.

So if i understand your suggestion properly, you mean that they will errata down the point costs while simultaneously making you have to spend points on summoning, and thus the current point costs are a placeholder until that gets rolled out?

How much should the Soulfeaster Keeper cost?

How many points do you guys think would be fair for a custom Varghulf, the addition being it can cast and unbind 1 spell like the Abhorrant Ghoul King warscroll (ie it has the Dark Acolyte effects by default)? And on page 5 of the battletome, it says that mortal, daemon and undead armies fight, flesh eaters often go to battle "both with and against them". Does anyone know of a story where the flesh eaters fight on the same side as Chaos?

Tinfoil hatting 101 would have one assume the new models would be buffed up so they sell, but them instead being overpriced goes right against that reasoning. I wonder what made it this way internally at GW, as again, it goes right against the "conspiracy theories" you might otherwise have seen with any kind of gaming release.

I assume the Legions of Nagash units will be made unuseable in matched play, right? I ask because the corpse cart's unholy lodestone in LoN works with all DEATH wizards, so i can ally it into FEC, but the new one is restricted to SOULBLIGHT GRAVELORDS and thus my evil plan is undone.

That sounds cool, do you remember which article it was?

In the lore, how would Flesheaters fight a force like for example the Ossiarchs? The Ossiarchs seem to be proof against all of the FECs' standard weaponry - death screams, bone implements, claws, fangs, necrotic infections, and they (as far as I'm aware) don't have any organs that can be mundanely targeted with paralyzing pain, concussion or rupture. What would a Varghulf do against a Morghast, Gothizzar harvester or even Mortek guard?Many years ago I remember reading - don't remember whether it was cited from some source or just speculation - that what you were actually striking at on the undead was not merely their materials, like bone, but the magic that holds them together. And the unraveling of that magic is what "really" happens when such models are slain. I guess that could begin to go toward an explanation... but it still seems very awkward at best for a Varghulf to fight those kinds of constructs.Maybe the seeming hopelessness of this fight is indeed why "... Ghouls have been spied crawling like pale beetles upon [Highhaven's] Realmgates, scratching ancient sigils and dark runes into the stones to ward against transgression by the unliving [of Nagash]."

Where did you reference this?

In the lore, how would Flesheaters fight a force like for example the Ossiarchs? The Ossiarchs seem to be proof against all of the FECs' standard weaponry - death screams, bone implements, claws, fangs, necrotic infections, and they (as far as I'm aware) don't have any organs that can be mundanely targeted with paralyzing pain, concussion or rupture. What would a Varghulf do against a Morghast, Gothizzar harvester or even Mortek guard? Many years ago I remember reading - don't remember whether it was cited from some source or just speculation - that what you were actually striking at on the undead was not merely their materials, like bone, but the magic that holds them together. And the unraveling of that magic is what "really" happens when such models are slain. I guess that could begin to go toward an explanation... but it still seems very awkward at best for a Varghulf to fight those kinds of constructs. Maybe the seeming hopelessness of this fight is indeed why "... Ghouls have been spied crawling like pale beetles upon [Highhaven's] Realmgates, scratching ancient sigils and dark runes into the stones to ward against transgression by the unliving [of Nagash]."

Archaon is much more similar to a very jaded version of Lorgar than to Abaddon. Archaon started out as a templar of Sigmar, whereas Abaddon has always been a bruiser. Archaon is desperately concerned with that which is beyond the primitive/instinctual/immediately visceral, whereas Abaddon again is more so concerned about power and strength and philosophises to the extent of defining, measuring and achieving it. Abaddon's ultimate goal is to rule an empire in his vision with power and glory, whereas Archaon's ultimate goal is to change the constitution of reality. They are absolutely not the same character or "ports" of each other in background and motivation. Being at the top of the mortal Chaos hierarchy and the foremost chosen of Undivided is just about all they have in common in terms of broad character. Although having read none of the novels themselves about them, I can't speak for their actual personalities, so don't take this very basic overview as a full exposition. They both have personalities and motivations far more fleshed out than this post would give you the impression of.

Does this look like a functional army list? I am not aiming for min-maxed optimisation, but I do want it to be playable. I figure that even though I don't have many bodies of my own, that the Bladebringer fighting twice with Acquiescence and rerolling to wound can wipe out a horde unit per turn, and so I can at least equalise that. I love Fiends and so I was glad to see the new points reduction and Choir of Torments seeming to make them pretty good. The Prismatic Palisade will hopefully prevent my forces from being shot to shreds before they can be effective in what I've read is a ranged-heavy meta. And the Wheels of Excruciation and Mesmerising Mirror I know I could exchange for more bodies but I really like them, and I figure I can use them for some area denial, damage, and actually making use of my spellcasting at the longer range. Total: 2000 Points Faction: Slaanesh, Invaders 950 - Heroes 220 – Bladebringer Herald on Exalted Chariot; General, Best of the Best, Rod of Misrule, Born of Damnation 380 - Keeper of Secrets; Sinistrous Hand, Progeny of Damnation 140 – Infernal Enrapturess 210 – Contorted Epitome; Rapier of Ecstatic Conquest, Pavane of Slaanesh 790 - Units 110 – 10 Daemonettes 90 – 5 Chaos Warriors; Hand Weapons & Runeshields 90 – 5 Chaos Warriors; Hand Weapons & Runeshields 120 – 5 Seekers 380 – 6 Fiends 120 – Battalions 120 - Choir of Torments 140 – Endless Spells 60 – Mesmerising Mirror 50 – Wheels of Excruciation 30 – Prismatic Palisade Terrain Fane of Slaanesh

This Apologia of Chaos is supposed to counteract views of the Chaos gods both as essentially evil, and as rigidly onedimensional both in their own aspects and how the Chaos gods relate to each other. I want to enable people to think of Chaos both in a fundamentally nuanced way, and even in an alien morally sympathic way as a force of catharsis. In this first post I have started with Khorne, mainly because he is the Chaos god people would most think of as mindless. This text is merely one variation of turning to Khorne, and with a cursory consideration, there are other accounts you could write that show different aspects of Khorne : 1) - The honorable warrior who despises dishonor and grows ever more pathological in that sense (whereas my account is not based on someone who is already a warrior) which is the classically nuanced account of Khorne. 2) - The person who despairs at reality but turns to rage instead of acceptance at it (see chapter master Kyras in DoW2 for example) 3) - The soldier, commander, civilian or administrator who grows more and more irritated and enraged at the incompetence or cowardice with which their side or their colleagues are carrying out some military operation. This is close to the account you are about to read from me, but not the same. Simply encouraging the enemy's command & control and regular soldiers to act on these latent or open feelings is also how I imagine Khorne insidiously destroys enemy armies, logistics and fortresses from within, equivalent to how the other Chaos gods would in their own ways. But this particular account based on sins and "social justice" is the one I chose to write for now, as I feel it's both the most general for how different people would fall and most clearly subverts a perhaps more typical expectation of Khorne as someone that civilians would hardly turn to, when in fact to me civilian life is rich in the path to Khorne. One might even ponder that it could particularly be those who are the most used to a life of "civilized" convenience and vanity that would be more susceptible to Khorne (and not merely to Slaanesh as one would stereotype), as they with their lack of perspective and humility would be more easily angered and frustrated by smaller perceived slights and setbacks. I plan to write accounts of the 3 other Chaos gods too, including the different aspects they all have in themselves and how the other Chaos gods both overlap and conflict with those aspects. For Khorne I already hinted at different accounts/aspects above. My goals are to make you feel sympathy for the human condition as a prerequisite, and then ultimately to make you see Chaos as protagonistic - that in its twisted alien resolutions to the human condition, it may actually be cathartically benevolent. If only you let Chaos into your mind... ---------------- Khorne Emotion: Anger (Frustration, Rage, Resentment, Hate) Notions: Justice, Righteous Disgust & Fury, Respect It may not be the warrior who creates the Rage, but the Rage that creates the warrior. Khorne’s faithful can be drawn from the most forward-looking and just-minded of people. Those who seethe at oligarchic privilege, those with a keen ill regard for economic rent seeking, corruption and fraud, those who despise the violently antisocial and petty lowlifes, those who hate the child or animal abuser, rapist, the lying and unfaithful, the human trafficker and domestically violent, even those who are enraged at pollution or social custom – they are at the forefront of who may fall to Khorne. Khorne sees your Anger, and urges you to set things right and not stop until all the injustice has been righted. The perpetrators know what they are doing and you bitterly know they can only be dealt with through destruction. But there are also those who might claim to feel a sense of right, but do not show the righteousness to act on it. They enable or excuse the presence of evil through their languid comfort, foolish pity, or blind legalism. Do they not have the sense of Justice? They must be swept into your fold, or if they do not feel the conviction you do, swept away as despicable accomplices too. So begins the life for Justice. And your tendency toward reaction against perceived slights grows too until it is intolerable to abide the common people around. You may already have a negative reaction to the inane humor, witless or wanton disrespect, stupidity, carelessness and hypocrisy that other people display. Perhaps you are even mindful of this in yourself too. What harm is it if creatures like these die? Their natures are an incorrigibly ugly sight. The world is at no loss without them. So the spirit of Khorne gives you the clarity to wipe away the evil sin and the ugly flaw. But this could not last forever. When at some point the devotee reflects on their pursuit, they might come to consider that some they have killed may not have deserved death. As they face the killer they have become, they realise that the person they are now may serve as an example of what could’ve driven their earlier self down this path in anger in the first place. Now, at last, they feel their most profound sense of insight. For in reduction to the sinful, the flawed and the murderous, who all deserve Justice, the world has become one of limitless potential for it. And each killing of the innocent brings the world closer to this state as well, both physically through their elimination and spiritually through turning the killer into a hypocrite, who now stokes anger in those who were as they once were. And so the enlightenment of Khorne is revealed. Now, free at last through Khorne, you have the life for a higher cause and eternal paradise of Justice that you always desired. Blood for the Blood God! ---------------- So what do you think? I wrote and edited this text just in the last hour or so, it is meant to be an oversight of Khorne's concept rather than a deep personal story. Did you like it? Any critique of my prose or concepts? Hopefully it gave you something.

What is the strategy supposed to be for the Dreadful Visage and Wheels of Excruciation endless spells? When are you supposed to take them for what uses?

Yeah, nevermind with the Nighthaunt. Unfortunate but that's the lore. Thanks for answering.

I have a couple of ideas I'm pondering. One is a flesh eater court corrupted by Chaos, either after they already became flesh eaters or they already worshipped Chaos when they were infected with the flesh eater delusion. To support this you also have Walach Harkon and some other blood dragons in the End Times who dedicated themselves to Khorne, showing that it'd be feasible for Abhorrants to be corrupted by Chaos too. So that part is covered, but the problem is with the Nighthaunt. I want to create a Nighthaunt host which likewise has been corrupted by Chaos, and cooperates or is directed to cooperate with the aforementioned flesh eater court (which the flesh eaters might regard as holy spirits). But as far as I've read (which is not any battletome, just the internet) this doesn't seem possible, as the Nighthaunt are directly dominated by the will of Nagash. My idea would have been that the Chaos gods were motivated to take over Nighthaunt both as a tactic of their war against Nagash and personally because they are offended by his claim of souls that should be claimed by them. Whichever Chaos god(s) seduced the Nighthaunt host in question to claim souls for Chaos instead would promise that they can use their hatred not only to reave the souls of the living but "free" the souls of the hated dead as well (I love that the Nighthaunt are motivated by hatred, it's why I like them - in this case they'd be driven to hatred of the dead that are not bound to Chaos), and that the Chaos god(s) look brightly upon them and will reward them for their faithful service. Something like that is my idea.... but is something like that going to be plausible in the lore or am I stretching it a bit too far? I think there are two problems, one is whether the Nighthaunt have any mental capacity for treason of Nagash and the other is whether it would matter that they try to rebel, or whether the souls would keep going to Nagash anyway (perhaps Chaos can send some sort of soul siphons to the Nighthaunt...). I am motivated by this clip in particular, where the Elder God tells Raziel that he can "use his hatred to reave their [former master and brethrens'] souls" and implores him to "free their souls, and let the Wheel of Fate churn again", cloaking his parasitic appetite in a kind of twisted true believer righteousness while driving Raziel on. That's what I want too.

What they really prevent wouldn't be cherry picking but "picking" at all. By your own logic as soon as the subfactions are ever expanded to include a significant number, or if there are few of them (like in Beasts of Chaos for example) but they are poorly balanced (not saying BoC are or aren't), there will be cherry picking. Although it's certainly not a doomsday scenario with the current subfactions either so I don't want to exaggerate. I just don't like how they lock you out of flavor choices like Dark Acolyte.

You're making up a fallacy of the excluded middle.

So basically, poorly balanced generic traits in the first place were left there technically but swept under the rug/patched over with the new system of subfactions?

Indeed, min-maxers will min-max in any system, but eliminating choices to "prevent" that is a scorched earth strategy. And just because you open up choices doesn't mean you have to remove the whole gameplay rules. Flesh Eater Courts right now for example effectively only have 4 choices for what package of battle trait + command ability + artefact + command trait they will take, so although you've made "bad" things used, it's because you've removed all but a few choices anyway. You wouldn't even need to completely remove subfactions necessarily, as I outlined in my OP all you would have to do is let players take additional command traits from the generic lists (which with subfactions in play now, you might as well eliminate). I agree that the old days of 4+ ward save items and such being auto includes, with items like the Frostblade and such never taken, weren't good design either. But that's because the selections were obviously unbalanced and were also left that way for years and years, it doesn't have to be designed that way. You just have to tone all the custom abilities down to the point that no army and no character "needs" to take any one of them (like the above example with the 4+ always taken ward saves for example).

But this is bad design from a narrative point of view, even if it works "competitively". It basically means you are allowed to power creep in exchange for eliminating choice and others have to do it too to keep up, or if it's not power creep then it's just clunky restriction (because the game can't be balanced otherwise or something?). What good does that do anyone? You could just make all the traits equally good and let players make their own combinations. It already works like that to a larger extent in 40k.