Ganigumo

The math isn't as bad as it looks for units of 10. If you can get 5 within 1" the choppa variant will get 16 attacks, and the hackas will get 21. This looks bad, but once you lose 2 models it evens out, or if you can get one more brute in the difference is only 1 attack. Something to keep in mind is gore-choppas have 2" range so they can still attack over your dual choppa brutes.

I'm gonna throw out a recommendation for paradoxical shield on the sorc lord on manticore. The sorc lord can give himself rerolls to save rolls with oracular visions. Paradixical shield adds 2 to your save but you must reroll successful save rolls. Since modifiers are applied after rerolls the sorc lord will succeed on a roll of 2 or 3 (vs no rend) then reroll everything succeeding on a 2+. The actual math is something like: 89% chance to save vs no rend 72% chance vs 1 rend 50% chance vs 2 rend You don't get any mortal protection but its an interesting combo.

In my opinion picking an army that you like from a lore/model perspective is pretty important, as well as a playstyle one. That said I'll throw out a recommendation for Beastclaw raiders specifically (as part of the Ogor Mawtribe battletome). Stonehorns might get hit with a bit of a nerf, but the Frostlord on Stonehorn is an absolute unit, and BCR are quite fast in general, since they benefit from the "hungry" rule giving them a bit more move than is on the warscroll. You also get a bit of deepstriking if you want to run a frostbrow hunter with some cats. BCR are pretty weak as far as magic goes, but you can fit a slaughtermaster into a BCR list pretty easily. Additionally at the moment you can build a pretty good 2k point army out of 3 Start Collecting: Beastclaw Raiders. This list is pretty easy to build out of as well, opinions on mournfang vary, but since you have an extra battleline, and the battalion only requires 2 units you could cut a unit, drop a unit to 2, etc. A slaughtermaster costs the same as 2 mournfang as well so that becomes an easy upgrade. Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes- Mawtribe: BoulderheadMortal Realm: ShyishLeadersFrostlord on Stonehorn (400)- General- Command Trait: Lord of Beasts- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet- Mount Trait: MetalcruncherHuskard on Stonehorn (320)- Blood Vulture- Artefact: Brand of the Svard- Mount Trait: Black ClatterhornBattleline4 x Mournfang Pack (280)- Culling Clubs or Prey Hackers with Iron Fists4 x Mournfang Pack (280)- Culling Clubs or Prey Hackers with Iron Fists4 x Mournfang Pack (280)- Gargant HackersStonehorn Beastriders (300)BattalionsEurlbad (140)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 109

Kairo's spell does a flat 6 damage at his highest bracket. Sure the LoC will do about 6 on average but kairos removes the variability which has its value. Unless you're using a CP to get a casting bonus both cast their spells on a 4+, since the normal LoC would need either a 4 or a 3 +1. Kairos fits well into a more arcanite themed list as well, since the command ability won't affect arcanite wizards (like acolytes) so I think in an arcanite based guild of summoners list he edges out a normal LoC. That forced die can be used on your opponents rolls too, so you can disrupt a key charge or save.

Unless you have a spare artifact or need to take a normal lord of change to meet a battalion requirement I think Kairos really outshines the normal LoC. For 20 points more than a lord of change Kairos can cast an extra spell, can change a d6 once per game (yours or your opponents), knows all the warscroll spells of friendly wizards within 18, and has more consistent damage on his spell, with the highest bracket doing a flat 6 damage. You only lose out on the command ability and the shooting attack. Kairo's spell will also drop a chaos spawn IN COMBAT with the unit if any models were slain. 6 mortals with a spell portal can snipe a lot of characters, and getting a chaos spawn within 3" of the unit has a lot of practical applications. Very important is the fact that the chaos spawn is dropped in the hero phase, which means it can retreat if its in combat, and get in the way, or move to harass/charge something if it isn't.

I was looking at the Aether war book to check the battalion out and I noticed it includes Tzaangor Enlightened, but it isn't bolded and doesn't specify they need to be on disk. Is this a misprint or does the non bolded "Tzaangor Enlightened" mean either on foot or on disc. I was under the impression if it was non bolded and didn't specify it meant the ones on foot.

Cheap wounds with rend and since they're on 25mm bases they can attack in 2 ranks. They die in droves, but that can be beneficial if you need to be inflicting mortal wounds when they flee.

I've been meaning to play with hoppers more but I haven't been able to get many games in recently (for obvious reasons). I think a unit of hoppers can be nasty if used correctly. Hide them behind a terrain piece/endless spell/unit and dash forward to trigger the mortal wounds and then straight back to safety. 3d6 move (rerollable if in the battalion) + d6 run + 3 from the loonboss is pretty fast, and a mortal on a 4+ for each model that passes over can be some nasty damage. I do think their points might still be a bit high though (especially in comparison to boingrots) but this might be a useful piece to have in order to score some extra mortals. If you happen to roll exceptionally well you can dash into the backline as well, but if you roll poorly you're probably going nowhere.

Obviously Loonking you already mentioned, but both the fungoid and madcap are decent options as well. The madcap's main appeal over the fungoid is the moonface mommet if you have an extra artifact since it can give a unit a -1 to save and both can take squig lure. If you're running squig hoppers to try to use their flyover ability prismatic palisade is useful since if you roll well enough you can fly over it, hit the unit you want to, then retreat back over the palisade. This can also be done with regular terrain but depending on the matchup palisade might be more consistent. If you feel you need an anvil consider some troggoths, both fellwater and rockgut can be durable. If you don't mind allies 30 savage orruks only costs 300 points, has 60 wounds, and has a 5+ save in melee. A Wardokk could fit in too at 80 points and on a 3+ could give the savage orruks a 4+ save in melee. Loonsmasha fanatics can actually hide in snufflers, but it definitely feels like you'd be gambling with that maneuver. Sporesplattas can help against shooting, but they'll probably die t1 against shooting armies anyways. Also I've heard rumors that white dwarf 455 will feature squigs so hopefully we see some new battalions.

The way I see it the Pink warscroll needs to go, maybe the split can happen at end of phase or in battleshock (with a significant point reduction because of the change in power) but at the moment the sheer efficiency of the unit is too much. This is not really something that can be fixed with just a points change. 240 points for 50 wounds is still among the cheapest wounds in the game (and might even still be the cheapest) As for flamers, if you push the cost to where they're right for baleful conflagration they become worthless in other builds which is why I don't think they should get pushed up as far, although maybe that's necessary

Daemons in general are MUCH more powerful as both flamers and horrors got significant buffs. A unit of 10 pinks is actually 50 wounds, and if you restore slain models you can restore the pinks, which means even more splitting. Flamers just have very high damage output and a long threat range. The rest of the daemon stuff hasn't changed that much, although kairos is now a triple caster. I'm not sure how most of the daemon battalions fare, changehost was so powerful it got nerfed but I'm not too sure about the rest. Its hard to tell where the arcanites stand though, Tzaangors are relatively unchanged and kairics are more expensive but saw buffs to compensate and most of the arcanite battalions are thoroughly mediocre, with wierd unit compositions, and/or high costs. The Gaunt summoner is quite good now since he can always summon a unit of pinks (50 wounds of chaff) ans has the daemon, mortal, arcanite and slaves to darkness keywords. The subfactions are a nice addition, but heavily favor daemons with the two best being the horror and flamer subfactions. The kairic subfaction is great for kairics, buffing their shooting significantly but they still don't match up well vs flamers. Tzaangors seem largely forgotten despite being very prevalent in arcanite battalions. Cult of the transient form is super cool, letting kairics fight before they die, or potentially become a tzaangor, but the chance is low(1 in 6), it requires a normal tzaangor unit within 9" of the slain model, kairics still kind of suck in CC and for some reason has the worst artifact and command trait in the entire book. Hosts arcanum might be good for a tzaangor build since you get a pregame move with d3 fliers and get screamer battleline so you could cut costs on battleline a bit. Cult of a thousand eyes from wrath of the everchosen seems solid for mortals though, letting you ignore cover and reroll hits in melee against d3 units chosen at the start of the game. Guild of summoners is super cool though, and probably one of the most fair subfactions and works for daemons, arcanites, or a mix. Its major draw is that it can only summon Lords of change, but the first one costs 9 points, the second 18, and any after are 27.

It is quite clearly worded on the warscroll "Once per turn, in your hero phase, you can pick one endless spell within 18" of this model. That endless spell is dispelled" This doesn't specify at the start of the hero phase and this clearly isn't a dispel in the same manner as a wizard since you don't need to give up a spell to use this ability. There are plenty of other ways to have worded this if it did need to be at the start of the hero phase, and the once per hero phase part would be irrelevant if it was at the start of the turn. This also wasn't addressed in the FAQ or designers commentary. I know in batreps and tournaments people are using it to dispel their own endless spells as well and it makes sense that a Lord of Change could be capable of this. I'd say all signs point to this being worded as intended, as a special ability that can dispel endless spells in a unique way.

Kairics down 10 points Tzaangors- down 20, Wishlist: Unit size changed to 5-30, 15 Tzaangors seems like a potential sweetspot in terms of usability, and saving the cost of 5 could go a long way. Enlightened and skyfires on disk down 20 Enlightened on foot - Battleline with TZAANGOR General Flamers up 20 Pink Horrors up 40, Ideally there would be an FAQ or warscroll change to make healing them less obnoxious so they don't need an increase, but 4 points a wound, and healing being 5x as effective makes them a bit ridiculous. Lord of Change down 30, This guy just does not measure up well to kairos, 20 points for an extra spellcast and an (arguably) better spell is a steal, but I don't think kairos is undercosted Gaunt Summoner up 30 Battalions: Alter-kin Coven: down 60. This battalion is frustrating because the effect is weak, and it doesn't have the composition you want. if this could have more kairics and/or Tzaangors it would be fine but as it is it really wants to be taken in multiples. 80 points may be too cheap for a command point and artifact but the battalion effect itself will probably only occur once per game. Tzaangor Coven: down 20, might be a bit much with all the other tzaangor point drops though Changehost: Unchanged, probably controversial, but many of the warscrolls and allegiance abilities have issues, and Changehost exacerbates the problem. Increasing the costs of the individual units is probably enough to bring it in line. (Eternal Conflagration flamers, and pink horrors in general will be a problem even outside of changehost)

There are other factors, but that goes both ways, large unit footprints can be tough to get into combat, but are excellent for holding objectives, which is a big part of why the game favors hordes at the moment plus fellwaters and rockguts are on 50mm bases with a 2 inch reach. 50mm is just under 2 inches. The dankhold also dies 2 wounds earlier. What I'm trying to get at is I really don't think the dankholds can justify having a higher price tag than the other variants. I think they belong at the same cost, because when I weigh the pros and cons they seem pretty equal to me, except for the 50-60 point difference in favor of rockguts and fellwaters.

In terms of troggoth hordes I'm just looking for ways to buff troggoth lists that won't break the unit for anything else. Now onto why dankholds need a significant point drop: Troggoth melee average damage comparison 3 Fellwater: Vs 4+ 7.11 damage Vs 3+ 5.33 damage Vs 2+ 3.56 damage 3 Rockgut Vs 4+ 6.67 damage Vs 3+ 5.33 damage Vs 2+ 4 damage 1 Dankhold: Vs 4+ 3.89 damage Vs 3+ 3.11 damage Vs 2+ 2.33 damage Then you can factor in special abilities like the rock throw, grab, and vomit but unless you're grabbing models with 3+ wounds, it will only even out the damage disparity. This isn't even getting into the damage variance of these guys, 3 d6 damage attacks is horribly incinsistent. Dankholds are also not durable at all. They are currently 10 wounds with a 4+ save is the equivalent of 5 Ardboyz or 5 chaos warriors(which will actually put out similar damage as the troggoth club) even at 170 these guys are way too inefficient. Spell resistance is pointless on a unit that is little more than a speedbump. Rockguts (definitely) and fellwaters(arguably) are more durable than dankholds, while dealing similar to more damage and having way better wound efficiency. I can't see dankholds being remotely usable until they cost the same, or less than rockguts and fellwaters.

A bit of this is wishlisting of course but I'll give what I think some of the stuff should go to. Dankhold Troggboss - 270 to 250 Fungoid Cave Shaman - 90 to 100 (Not convinced, but this guy is very solid for the points and is used as an ally quite a bit) Madcap Shaman - 80 to 70 Arachnarok with Warparty/Flinger - Battleline if Spiderfang General. Gobbapalooza - 200 to 160 Dankhold Troggoths - 200 to 150/400 (these dudes really need a warscroll rewrite though, but this at least makes the bodies more affordable) Fellwater Troggoths - 150 to 150/520 Rockgut Troggoths - 140 to 140/520 note on Troggoths: I think horde discounts are the way to go for troggoths going forward, since if they get any cheaper every destruction faction and non-troggoth list is going to benefit more from the efficiency. What I would really like to see though is troggoths being able to regenerate back slain models if their unit still exists. Spider Riders - from 100/540 to 80/280 with their unit size changed to 5/20. I could see these guys going as low as 70 points base though. SporeSplatta Fanatics - 120 to 100 Squig Hoppers 90 to 80, I'd love it to go to 80/280 though. Scuttletide: 30 to 50 Malevolent Moon: 40 to 30 Battalions: Gobbapalooza - 110 to 100 Troggherd - 180 to 80 (This thing has a sketchy ability at the best of times, and the fact it can make a 1 drop list doesn't really matter when Troggoths don't get a huge benefit from going first or second since they aren't fast enough to alpha strike, and don't have enough shooting/magic to make double turns crippling.)

I did the math using 5 brutes with dual weapons vs 5 ardboyz against a 4+ save and ardboys do around 0.04 wounds per point while brutes do about 0.048. Brutes should scale better with bigger units due to additional gore hackas and I would expect brutes with gore choppas to do better in large units as well due to the 2 inch range. Brutes will do even better against anything with 4+ wounds, so if things like ogors or giants become meta brutes will start looking very good even at the current point cost. In terms of points per wound ardboys are a 9 and brutes are a 9.3. If we were just looking at a points drop brutes start looking good at 130 and are probably better than ardboyz at 120 (8 points per wound, 0.056 damage per point). I'd probably advocate for a horde discount of ~80 points myself. You get the 20 point discount, but only in a big unit and "horde" discounts actually make more sense on units that don't have incentive to be run in larger units to make the decision between MSU or big units more compelling. I'd still prefer a warscroll update though. If they were 100 points i think the only reason to take 'ardboyz would be for hand of gork. As they would have 0.0672 damage per wound and 6.67 wounds per point which is nearing savage orruk levels of efficiency, especially with the save factored in. @TALegion That actually sounds like a great idea, i'll definitely give that a shot when I can eventually get a game in.

Probably Mean 'Un for the bonus damage. I could go fast 'un, but if I really want the maw Krusha somewhere i can probably afford to use a CP on Mighty Destroyers. Although Ignax's scales + Wierd Un would make him nearly invulnerable against magic if I need that much defemse.

Yeah I love brutes too, but the issue is that they are too similar in function to Ardboyz. Same save, similar attack profile, similar points to wound ratio. The game as it is now favors big hordes though, and generally the 'ardboyz +2 to charge, bravery bonus, and shields are more useful than the Brutes +1 to hit against 4+ wound models and Gore Hacka. But IMO its a pretty close comparison. If it werent for the +2 charge bonus I would probably leave them at home too. Its a bit surprising that a faction with 3 units has 2 that are nearly identical in role and strength. I don't think brutes need buffs, but certainly they need to differentiate 'Ardboyz and Brutes more.

The Gargant is mostly filler at the moment, but I've already got it painted. I'll probably swap it out once I get some more Gore Gruntas painted. My reason for playing ignax's scales is that there's a lot of khorne in my playgroup and Wierd 'un doesn't help against Prayers so I'm wondering if that gives more durability than ethereal amulet in that scenario.

If we're looking to make brutes better I would love to see them get +1 damage somehow. A lot of models on 40mm bases have at least 2 damage for their primary attack (Ogors, trolls, Tzaangor enlightened, etc) it would probably come with a point increase though. I like the idea since it makes the warchanter less of a necessity for Brutes. Also what is the opinion on Bloodtoofs? I've been painting up a list but I'm not sure if I should go Bloodtoofs for the +1 charge and autocasting hand of gork, or go with no clan and a wierdnob to free up an artifact and get a useful command trait. My List: Allegiance: Ironjawz- Warclan: BloodtoofsMortal Realm: AqshyMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)- General- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa- Command Trait: Get Da Realmgate- Artefact: Ignax's ScalesOrruk Warchanter (110)Orruk Warchanter (110)Orruk Megaboss (150)- Artefact: Quickduff Amulet15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers15 x Orruk Brutes (420)- Jagged Gore-hackas- 3x Gore Choppas3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)- Jagged Gore-hackasAleguzzler Gargant (160)- AlliesIronfist (160)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 160 / 400Wounds: 136

You can probably skip most of whats in spiderfang, the only stand-out if you aren't focusing on spiderfang synergy is the arachnarok shaman. He's a dual caster with +1 to cast he can take a spell to project a -1 to hit bubble, which can make grots and fellwaters much more durable. For squigs, herds are cheaper than grots in min sizes so you can skimp on battleline if you need to. Boingrots are strong but your trolls will probably already be filling the hammer role.

I'm incredibly inexperienced with Bonesplitterz but my thoughts are that 2-4 are more than enough to smash most monsters(2 with no buffs dealing on average ~7.5 damage), and they're extremely fragile. lumping a bunch in a big unit would make them an easy target for shooting/magic, where a small unit is easier to hide, and tougher to justify dumping a lot of resources into removing.

Squig rider stampede is really good, it helps your bounderz be more consistent and nets you an artifact. Squigalanche is a bit weak, 6" fight & pile in is good, but it only working under the bad moon makes it too limiting. The cost and organisation force you to use a hero on a squig as well, since only 2 squig herds fit into the battalion meaning you can't afford to use skragrott to get the bonus when you need it. The battalion also doesn't include any snufflers or wizards, when you really want access to squig lure and/or the snuffler buff. If it was a bit cheaper, or had 3 squig herds in it it would be much better but as it stands its pretty unreliable.

So I recently stumbled into a lot of Bonesplitterz after starting my collection and am trying to figure out what to run in a 2k list. My plan was to run a wurgogg, 2 wardokks, a maniak weirdnob, and a big boss as heroes, then figure out how to organize the boyz. My initial List looks like: Subfaction: Drakkfoot Heroes: Wurgogg Prophet -160 Wardokk - 80 Wardokk - 80 Maniak Weirdnob - 120 Savage Big Boss - 100 Battleline: 30x Savage Orruks (with shield & Spear) -300 20x Savage Orruk Arrowboys -240 20x Savage Orruk Arrowboys -240 10x Savage Boarboys Other: 2x Big Stabbaz -100 2x Big Stabbaz - 100 Endless Spells: Balewind Vortex - 40 The Burning Head - 30 Battalions: Kunnin' Rukk - 140 Total:1990/2000 Thoughts? should I be running less arrowboys and more Regular boys? Or should I be running a different battalion? Should I try to work Morboys in?