KriticalKhan

Yep, looks like I completely missed the keyword for him. This is why I stay out of competitive games 😬

I only play very, very casually so I can't speak for how well received these particular changes might be (and I'm too lazy to check the threads older than this one :^) ) and I really only pick up armybooks for the funny words and pretty pictures, but it looks like Lauka Vai and the Vengorians lost their rampage, Anika doesn't have a heal effect on her sword, and Kritza doesn't respawn anymore? Were those errata'd out before this release? Kinda disappointing. Regardless, the lore is as gothic and macabre as ever and I swear this time I'm going to finish my backlog of skeletons before another box of Grave Guard mysteriously appears in it. I can only assume this is the work of a rogue necromancer and no fault of my own. On a completely unrelated note, does anyone know where I can find the old SC! for cheap?

Call me petty (because I am), but this is the one thing about AoS 1e retcons I will never forgive. Seraphon as daemons of order returned from their dead world to enact vengeance on the beings who destroyed it is the coolest thing they could have done to explain them being in AoS. I get that people wanted the fleshy lizards back, and I did miss that aspect of their lore, and GW found a pretty neat compromise--some of the Seraphon started getting physical bodies again, and the spawning pools were creating new, "real" lizards. You get both sides of the lore in one easy development that doesn't even feel like a retcon. Literally the best of both worlds. But wait. "The starborne aren't daemons either and they're totally flesh and blood and just ignore the last four years of lore pls we changed it back don't be angry pls pls pls" If you don't like the daemon angle, I get it. It's different and not everyone has to like it, and it's all personal taste anyway. But GW introduced another way to fluff them that appeases both groups and IN THE SAME BREATH retconned away the original AoS lore... when they had already introduced the fix people were asking for. Now we have two different flavors of Seraphon, they're both still flesh-and-blood and born out of spawning pools, the memory-daemon angle is completely gone, and the only actual difference is that starborne... are kinda shiny? They glow sometimes? If they were going so far in changing what the starborne are, then why bother making any kind of distinction? It's like a parent making macaroni for dinner, but one of the kids wanted a hamburger, so they took the macaroni they'd already made, filled it with pickles, put it on a bun... and then made a hamburger for the other kid, too. I do not understand.

The sad irony of Fyreslayer wishlisting I've noticed is that everyone complains about how same-y the units are and that it's just the same concept over and over again, and when you ask them what they want to see it always ends up being Magmadroth cavalry and more dwarf infantry with slightly different weapons. Fyreslayers aren't bound by the same rules and conventions of Warhammer Fantasy dwarfs so they could go all-out with the Warhammer wackiness and high fantasy stuff AoS is known for. Instead of Magmadroths (but SMALLER) make their cavalry salamanders or fire ants. Bring back the axe hewer or give them a trebuchet that throws explosive barrels of ale (with the joke being that the REALLY strong stuff gets kept for drinking--the weaker, less explosive batches are only good for war). Fyreslayers that have so many runes embedded in them that they've turned into monstrous infantry golems that aren't even recognizable as living creatures. Take a page out of the Chaos Dwarf's book and give them bound fire spirits (Ah, but I've just remembered they already did this but only made a single endless spell....) If you want to add more infantry, it really has to stand out. Something like super-heavy armor shield bearers who hold the line for the berzerkers to do the killing or ones who eschew traditional weapons for rune power fists or brass knuckles embedded in their flesh (maybe they were shamed like old slayers and had to shave their beards if you really want them to look different). Unironically, I think a few infantry options without mohawk helmets would go a long way toward diversifying their visuals on the tabletop. Bonus points if the heads are compatible with old kits to give some variety there. I don't think you have to change what Fyreslayers ARE, but you need to give them more that isn't the exact same thing. When you look at the bigger Fantasy and 40k armies, they have a lot of stuff that--going by AoS' standards--could work as its own army but they managed to bring some pretty disparate concepts together in a unified way thanks to common themes and design cues.

GW was no stranger to pretty drastic redesigns throughout Fantasy's lifespan, so I don't think they'll have too much trouble justifying the updated sculpts--specifically things like the Saurus cavalry. I can easily see them simply calling them Cold Ones. Even if they end up being a separate thing and (god forbid) the old models for them coming back, they're also big fans of dropping new stuff into a setting and pretending it's always been there, so we might end up with both units. Something like the new ogre tyrant, or whatever else has a Stormcast mask on it, can be handwaved with "ancient relic" or "something something, the warp works in mysterious ways," if they bother justifying it at all. If I'm remembering the hearsay right, then the model designers and rules teams are completely separate. The people designing The Old World might not have much of a say in what goes on models-wise even if they're completely independent from the main AoS team. I wish we had a clearer picture of GW's corporate structure because then it would be easier to make delusional fanfiction about how they decide that kind of stuff 😔 Regardless, I look forward to pointlessly speculating on something that will be revealed in two weeks anyway

Oh god... I'm starting to feel nostalgic for 1e AoS...

I don't want to sound presumptive, but from what I can tell a lot of people against The Old World are speaking as if its existence is an existential threat to AoS or that GW going back to Fantasy is admitting AoS was a failure. People get really invested in hobbies like this, they tie their identity to it, and then all this starts seeming far too personal for what it really is. AoS exists because GW decided Fantasy wasn't worthwhile to keep around. They didn't care about the IP as much, so they let some video game developers make some games that ended up being really popular. That drove interest back toward the IP, but the game was dead and buried. AoS doesn't scratch the same itch, GW saw that interest was sticking around, so they've decided to revive Fantasy as a side game for the people who are interested in it. That's all that's happening. Every time someone here asks, "Who wants this?" The answer is, "The people who asked for it for the last seven years." You don't like that they're bringing back old models? That's fine. It's not for you. You don't like the square bases? You don't have to pretend like they're "aesthetically inferior" or whatever---it's fine. It's not for you. You don't like anything about Fantasy at all? AoS is still here. The Old World has its own team. It is a separate project. It's not going to hurt you.

I was kinda surprised that the Sunblood and Eternity Warden didn't get new minis, but (assuming they survive to the new book and don't get dropped) they're almost guaranteed to be the obligatory single foot-hero release for the next time Seraphon get a Battletome. After sleeping on it, I'm still unimpressed with the Dawnbringer armour design, but I've completely come around to how weird the faces look. Imagine you're some elite Chaos Warrior who's plagued the realms of mankind for centuries, backed up by daemons from ****** beyond your comprehension and riding a flesh-eating horse that shoots lasers out of its eyes, and the blokes who rock up to challenge your domain all look like this *BANG BANG* "CAM ON DAWNBRINGERS. RECLAIM SOME FACKING REALMS"

Ironic that the old designs lifted straight from history are more original than the "AoS-ified" versions that look like they could be from any generic fantasy setting from the last twenty years. And those are some of the worst faces I've seen come out of GW (due to painting or sculpts regardless) in a long time. But! 100% positive on everything else. I'm all-in on Seraphon once I've completed my backlog (or sold it to get to the lizards faster...) and even if I'm against the idea of loyalist Primarchs in 40k on a thematic and conceptual level, Lion El'Jonson is a DILF. That is all.

If Flesh Eaters get a sizable release (at least, beyond the standard pity hero) in Autumn, then I wouldn't be surprised if Dawnbringers end up being a winter release. We might even end up with an "army box in December, full release in January" situation like StD. It would fit with the roughly two year release schedule we know GW has and similarly align with how long the Sisters of Battle took from their announcement to release with the teaser blogs inbetween

King Brodd abandoning Destruction.......

I really doubt we're going to see a dual kit with the Razordon with this, but GW has surprised me before. It'd be a shame if it ends up like the Aspect Warriors that didn't get updated or if they drop it, but I guess people who have Razordons can still proxy them as this guy. Still, new Salamander looks fantastic. I love him so much. I don't collect Fyreslayers, but for their sake, I hope there's a way to ally these guys in.

The Old World exists solely to capitalize on the popularity of Total War and Vermintide. I'm 99% sure they announced it as soon as they could so that fans of those games would know it exists before the hype for them was over. There isn't likely to be any communication or coordination regarding AoS as they have separate teams developing both games, and you only have to look at the general AoS player base's reaction to know that The Old World isn't really something they're interested in ---reactions go from simple disinterest to viewing it as an existential threat to AoS' existence. Whether or not The Old World actually releases on time to capitalize on any TW and Vermintide hype is anyone's guess, but before people give GW too much flak for how long it's taken, Covid-19 dropped right in the middle of its development, and we all remember how much it impacted the hobby in general. Had it not happened, we'd be right in the middle of their estimated release window right now. I don't think a year or two of delays is very unreasonable given everything that happened. But on the subject of Total War and Coatls in AoS, some of you might remember that a Lizardman DLC was released for TW Warhammer II that featured Coatls as a unit unlike anything they'd had on TT. Given GW's development to release timeline of about two years and how involved they are in the design process for Total War (according to them and the developers of that game), I wonder if we might find out the Total War Coatl is based on concepts for the possible AoS unit? As a rule, TW Warhammer doesn't include AoS-specific content, but that hasn't stopped them from using AoS designs for things that existed in Fantasy.

Saelamanders? Salaemanders? Salamaenders? Salamandaers? Saelaemaendaers?

If we're talking about redundancy in their roster, then the last thing Seraphon need is another big dinosaur. Saurus Knights are almost legendary in how bad they look. They deserve a redemption arc. Not including what we've already seen and going off Whitefang's posts ("Choose four out of five", no new skinks, and reacting positively to there being more than we were expecting) -Kroxigors -Salamanders (possible Razordon dual kit but not guaranteed) -Saurus Knights -One or more of the remaining Saurus heroes The skink heroes are a bit more complicated. The regular priest with feathered cloak could honestly just be rolled into the Starpriest' profile, but the if we were getting a new Starseer you'd think it would be a build option with the new Slaan. Maybe they're saving it for the "obligatory single hero release that updates an old resin model" that'll come with the 4e tome. Even if they don't update any of the other Saurus heroes, that will still leave the Saurus Guard as the only Saurus units using the old, skinny design--that would be tragic, especially considering their role as the ultra-elite of the faction. But, with new Warriors to work with, we can always convert them.

Whitefang laughed at the other list and gave heart eyes to the post mentioning Salamanders. Someone summon a Starpriest to divine these strange messages.

Not to be a negative nancy, but regarding the elves vs dwarfs content distribution, I think the simple fact that people need to acknowledge is that elves are more popular, so they sell better, and so they get more support. Fyreslayers started the race with a broken knee (lackluster models for a haphazard concept) and I can't imagine their sales have inspired much confidence in GW. I think armies like Grotbag Scuttlers and Root Kings (anyone remember the wishlisting for those guys?) aren't meant to be hints about what's coming, rather just authors having fun with the setting and (intentionally or not) inspiring players to make conversions. GW isn't saying, "We're going to make goblins with looted Kharadron ships!" it's them going, "Hey, this is a cool idea, right? Now go buy two armies worth of models to make it." On this subject, how many lore "hints" have actually turned out to be new armies? "Angelic elves" became Lumineth, but all the other releases I can think of just showed up and were justified in-lore after-the-fact ("They were totally there, guys. They were just hiding... uh... in the sky/under the water/in a swamp.")

If anyone ever complains about a lack of clear, transparent roadmaps and communication, see posts like this. It's not incompetence on GW's part. They know exactly what they're doing. And I don't want it to seem like I'm saying this as an attack against Captaniser or anything of the sort---it just seems like a frequent topic of discussion here. And on that note, I was going to start a World Eaters army, but then I saw the Seraphon update ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do you mind explaining this mindset a bit more? I've seen it a few times in other situations, but I can't wrap my head around it. If you were fine with the models before, then why would you have a problem with new ones (unless you just don't like how the update looks, obviously)? They won't replace the ones you already have, and other people have a chance to get models they'd like more. If you didn't like the models and are mad they got updated after you bought into the old ones I can understand feeling bitter about it, but (you'll have to forgive me for using such a drastic metaphor) that's like hoping a cure for cancer never gets invented after going through chemotherapy.

My only worry with the Seraphon release is that they, for lack of a better word, "waste" new kits on new units or replacements for heroes instead of troops. Who would honestly prefer an updated Sunblood or Eternity Warden over new Kroxigors or Salamanders? They said what we saw today "isn't even half" so, counting the not!Culchans as one kit (and assuming the presenters actually know what they're talking about) then we're looking at at least seven new plastic kits, including the three we saw today. Those last 4 could be Kroxigors, Salamanders/Razordons, Saurus Guard, and Knights (by far the ones who need the most help) but that new unit is already one of my favorites and I want more cool, new stuff like it too...... Lizardmen were going to be my first army (until I saw those poor Saurus...) so I am very excited about this but I am also paranoid. I will keep huffing the copium of it being such a standalone release which means every single kit will be updated and we'll get a bunch of new stuff and the book will be great and they'll finally be important in the lore and it'll be perfectly balanced and we'll get alternate sprues to use them as a new 40k army and Kroq-Gar will be my new dad and

Mighty Sigmar, our father who art in Azyr, blessed be thy Heldenhammer; thy Dawnbringer Crusade come; thy will be done in Ghur as it is in Azyr. Give us this presentation our Seraphon reveals; and forgive us our doomposting as we forgive those who doompost against us; and lead us not into 40k spotlight hogging, but deliver us from new Space Marine models. For thine is the mainline game, and the better system, and has the cooler models, for ever and ever. Amen.

As someone who just started a Stormcast army, this kind of stuff is what makes me glad Stormcast "flopped" as a main protagonist faction--at least, on the same tier as Space Marines. I remember when the Extremis Chamber had its own battletome and the designers were talking about Stormhosts getting their own books like Space Marine Chapters. For all the grief people give Stormcast for hogging releases, at least they have the decency to stay in new edition starters lol

They might be the least interesting to you, but they also haven't had a proper army in the seven years since this game released. If you consider the (admittedly few) WH Fantasy Empire players still here, then they've been waiting for new models since before AoS even existed. The idea behind Cities of Sigmar is nice, but the execution of, "Uh, here are the armies we don't know what to do with. Now go away." Was never going to last forever, and people were predicting that the second the book got announced. (I'm not happy about that, btw, but anyone playing legacy factions should be doing so under the assumption that they could be dropped at any moment. I say this as someone who mains ogres.) I'm pretty confident we're still going to see elves and dwarfs in the new book, whether or not it's still called Cities of Sigmar or goes for the full Dawnbringer rebrand, but even if they're in a much smaller capacity, it will have the benefit of an actual, unified aesthetic to begin with. Anything disparate and unique can be left to conversions, just as with any other army.