Grdaat

Maybe if they updated the rules more people would buy them, like what happened in every other instance of them updating the rules for any army ever (except Tyranids in 7th edition). It's not on the consumer to generate interest in the army. If GW isn't convinced by emails then there's nothing we can really do.

It's hard justifying the extra money for FW models unless there's a guarantee it would lead to them updating the rules. They cost so much more and not everyone has the budget for it.

Play Drakfoot, who can kill him very easily, or just avoid him, he's not very fast.

Except there's many ways they can get around them, as seen by the Seraphon, but I'm not going to argue too much on this point. The more we argue about it the further off-topic the thread goes.

You didn't specify which timeline you would or wouldn't accept, Storm of Chaos was canon for over half a decade before they went back on it and it's an example of how the setting did change. Even without it we have plotlines like vampires kidnapping the Everqueen's daughter and nearly starting a war between the Dwarfs and Elves when a team up between the two failed to rescue her. Except they were driven out of them and killed. Them returning was a major plot point, and the focus of an entire campaign which the Empire (in Franz's time) lost. Already happened, play Sigmar's Blood. You asked me to do that, or did you forget? You said you'd rescind your posts if I gave you the examples you wanted, and now that I have you say they don't matter because they're from 8th edition WHFB and it's in the past. Since you haven't rescinded your posts I'm going to call you a liar. What are you talking about? Gorfang was killed by Thorgrim way before the End Times in a novella called Thorgrim. He was also a major character in the setting, without him Black Crag is open to invasion, the Badlands are exposed, Skarsnik loses any hope of Orc reinforcements and it turns the conquest of Karak Eight Peaks from a contested fight to a heavily Dwarf favoured engagement. There was a campaign, it happened in the White Dwarfs and the outcome was based off of Battle results players sent in. Do you think they don't invade them? Because there's novels on that sort of thing and how they're repulsed or why they leave/crumble. Because Brass Keep is a defensive location, they need to wait for new armies before striking out. It isn't a nation unto itself. Also Middenheim didn't fall before precisely because it's a heavily defended location. How can you say nothing changed while directly listing an example of it changing? No. Except Nuln was ruined several times in the lore and the only reason it's around is because of the sentimental value of the place. Had it not been the birthplace of Magnus and former capital of the Empire, it would've been abandoned after Grom ran a train through it. That's why Gorfang survived the books- oh wait no. Well that's why the Orcs still have the Solland Runefang- oh wait. You say it's a known fact, but it wasn't as far as WHFB was concerned. Not really, I don't recall a Fantasy edition where the story didn't change or move forward. You must not have gotten that into it then, seeing as how you keep asking questioned that have easy answers or saying stuff that isn't true. I figured, but I might as well address them anyway. Anyone who's convinced WHFB didn't change is someone who didn't look further than the covers. You think Terra is disposable?

The only thing I'm trying to accomplish is having a discussion about what people like in the setting and how they feel about it.

Nice shifting the goalposts. You asked if something happened and are now pretending it didn't matter. By that metric does the End Times no longer matter because AoS retconned many of the elements inside of it? Actually he didn't die because of previously established lore that was in place for a while before that fight and which Abaddon likely wasn't aware of. Why do you think that was supposed to be a Chaos victory? You're disregarding the past, ignoring what was established and asking questions that are directly answered in the works I mentioned, and you have the gall to say I didn't read the lore? Read the lore first, then come back here, unless you wish to join NinthMusketeer in claiming that Terra is an unimportant location. Just like what happened with Gorbad Ironclaw- oh wait. Well at least we have a fun backstory with Gorfang Rotgut- oh wait no. Well I'm sure Bugman's Brewery has a treasured history- oh whoops. Well at least we can turn to the minor Empire provinces like Sylvania to see- oh no, not there too! Well at least the Empire capital of Nuln will be untouched- oh damn, not even that! Nothing tangible happens my ass. Brass Keep (Chaos), Castle Templehoff (Vampires) Castle Drakenhoff (Vampires). There were attempts to fight them off while Franz ruled, but they ended in failure, with the last one ending with the capture of Volkmar the Grim in 8th edition.

Actually something I've just noticed was the little notice in the new General's Handbook, Legends units are no longer legal without the express permission of your opponent and without the express invitation of events, and all of our units are now in the Legends category. Well it was fun while it lasted, but I probably won't be making any new lists for them since nearly everything I use is now squatted. I don't like having to jump through hoops to play an army, and I don't like needing my opponent's permission to use them, especially since I don't know everyone I'll be playing and some newer players will just go "I'd rather stick to "official" armies."

Yes, because the Astronomicon is on Terra, no Terra, no Astronomicon at all. Because of the emergence of the previous three players and Crusade I'd just mentioned. Look up Storm of Chaos. Yes. Yes. There are entire novels that go into those sorts of details if you'd like to look them up. Those would be tangible if they needed those specific Realmgates to travel when the Seraphon have shown us you do not. Cannot easily access them does not mean they cannot access them, and Enslavers are still around, saying they're not relevant is just trying to pretend they don't exist. And they're much more vulnerable while doing this. Read the Gathering Storm, you see it in there and also see how without the combined efforts of the Imperium and Eldar that they would've permanently killed Guilliman, Cawl, and made very short work of Ultramar and the wider Imperium. He did handle Calgar, have you read it? Is that why there's reports of planets falling and fleets going missing? Not exactly what I'd call "doing fine" when their existence is a struggle. What's wrong with exploring a timeline? It helps show how everything is connected and give you a better picture of the setting as a whole, not to mention it catalogues the setting's best triumphs and losses without making the player look for those themselves. So because GW retcons stuff, you'd rather have nothing be set in stone? I guess that's an opinion, it's just not one I share.

Hey, there's the kind of stakes I was looking for. I wouldn't say that they're on the same level, since as soon as Cadia fell the galaxy was ripped in half, but at least that's something. As far as establishing them goes, Cadia was established with less time in it's existence compared to Excelsis, so I think it's fair to compare them.

I never said it was perfect, just that it was fleshed out. I also never said that it was immediately fleshed out or that it didn't have retcons along the way, it obviously did, but the holes in the setting were patched up (until 8th edition and End Times anyway) and the writers didn't approach it with the intention of leaving everything as vague as possible so that they could have all the freedom in the world. Even that map you link shows more effort to flesh out the setting than anything in current AoS because it's trying to show you the full scale of the setting, and making it clear that this is it. AoS has only recently started to include maps, but even then they're only for small portions within it. What I'm really hoping for is that AoS continues to add maps to the setting to show us what's going on within it, showing us something like the surroundings of Hammerhal it and why that place can't be replaced if it's destroyed would be a great step forward in terms of investment and world building. Retcons are going to happen, but as I said before, I'm surprised at the speed they're happening. Retcons in Fantasy were usually separated by 4-8 years, which is enough to gather feedback on what worked and what didn't. AoS seems to think that if it stops putting out constant content it'll shrivel up and die. Cadia was essential in preventing the warp from overtaking large parts of the galaxy, and without Terra humanity has no access to relatively safe FTL travel. Except things did change in Fantasy, cities fell, Bugman lost his brewery, characters got killed. Why care about that sort of conflict in AoS when it leads nowhere and doesn't matter? Hold the phone, I never said it would end the setting, just the Imperium. And they still export their Psykers because without the Emperor, they'd be vulnerable to outside influence. Daemonic invasion, Enslavers, that sort of thing and given how many Psykers are appearing right now, it would be an attack from all angles that the Imperium would not survive. Hell, the Enslavers on their own could wreck the vast majority of it if there was nobody to alter the weaker Psykers. Also there are still types of Astronomicon beacons in the Dark Imperium that act as a sort of booster for the Emperor. There was even an Alpha Legion book where they were trying to find it, alongside the other Chaos Space Marines. Do you think they're not still running rampant? They are, the only things that set them back a little bit was the Primaris Marines, Guilliman and the Custodes finally coming out. Without those (and Guilliman's crusade) that would've been it. Firstly I'd suggest you do more reading on why the Imperium needs the Emperor, and secondly AoS has an odd identity crises where it wants to be about the player's armies, but at the same time keeps changing its mind to go back to its standby heroes. It also doesn't help that they keep doing timeskips and seem to avoid any cohesive timeline like it's a plague. I will say that I do love the idea of making armies that play off the existing ones in the setting, but that's yet another thing AoS needs to flesh out more. The current rules make it hard to personalize your army and the new build-a-character rules were just disappointing.

Do you think the Celestant Prime and Olynder can permanently die? If so I've got some news for you about the battle that happened right before Katakros was released, as well as the end fight of Wrath of the Everchosen... Also if you think that I haven't read the lore then you haven't read the thread. EDIT: It's also very poor form to accuse somebody else of not knowing the lore, right after you say that Terra in 40k is a replaceable planet, and that it wouldn't matter if it was destroyed.

Except they could just break Katakros and put him in a new box, therefore reversing it. A) the Seraphon showed you can make new Realmgates, and B) you can bar Realmgates shut, which is what Sigmar did. The places within Shyish are moving to the Nadir, I've never seen anyone say the realm was shrinking. This also goes with what I was saying about how the cities are disposable. No you cannot, look what happened when Cadia fell for example. If Terra fell then that's it, humanity's screwed, the Imperium's over and safe FTL travel is permanently gone for them. That you think Terra of all places is not irreplaceable blows my mind. I wonder what setting AoS replaced and is coming back I was referring to...

At least then it would feel like there were actual stakes to a conflict. They don't really need to so long as they explain in-universe why Cadians act and are recognized as Cadians, and they did just that. That depends, while it's not often that it happens, there have been many characters killed off who were prominent in the lore, on the tabletop, or both. One of the biggest examples that comes to mind is Aun'Va. Because both Abaddon and Calgar can die permanently, the Celestant Prime and Lady Olynder cannot.

And none of those cities are irreplaceable. None of those cities are places that cannot be rebuilt, or hand waved away by having a near-identical city revealed just a mile down the road should they fall. Because of this, those cities are still just places, not places of importance.

Why would you need to kill a faction to make a drastic change? That sounds like you're shifting the goalposts because it has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The second point I agree with you on, and that's also exactly my point in AoS. In 40k for example, if Guilliman gets his head cut off then that's it, he's gone for good. In AoS when the Celestant Prime died, we weren't able to see him fighting during the time he took off to get better. With that in mind, why care about a fight between him and Olynder? Both will be back next week regardless of who wins. This was also something I went into detail on in my first post on this thread.

Which city is AoS's Terra/Cadia/Fenris/Armageddon/Baal/Ultramar/Vigilus? 40k gives reasons for why their major planets are important, each contributes to those around it whereas AoS's cities are just cities. If they're destroyed, they're replaceable. The same isn't true of the planets I mentioned, just look at what happened when Cadia fell. AoS is like 40k if there were no major planets.

We're pretty much over it already though, there isn't much more to say. It would just be a bunch of reposts unless you want to open it up to more retcons, but if you do that I think it would turn into a cesspool pretty quickly. A lot of people would get mad at the retcons, and then others would be mad at people who are mad at the retcons.

I honestly don't think anyone's doing that, the worst this got was whether or not something was retconned.

I was not being fully sarcastic (just mostly), and my points about the hobby store compared to 40 Starbucks were honest (if a little absurd). If I know the stakes, it's easier to get invested, simple as that. If you keep making it seem like there might be a big change because a city might falls in the same setting where a new Empire gets eaten by the Ogors every Tuesday, well I think you can see why it's hard to take that seriously. This is why I stated earlier that by upping the scope they ruined the scale. It's like trying to get invested in the life of a fly amid a million other flies.

There's a setting this one replaced and which is making a return you might have heard of...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't we take a Sacred Protector with the Graves and Broach and put him on terrain for a 2+ re-rollable save that is immune to Rend?

If Tikka Hut was using the exact same ingredients and equipment but with a slightly different recipe I could see why some people are bothered they can no longer get their pepperoni mozza. Should probably get back on topic after this, but so long as we're temporarily jumping off we might as well commit to it.

Both of those also raised a lot more questions but that's getting off topic. I think the point is some people just prefer a more grounded setting where nearly every question can be answered.

To give them some slight bit of credit, I also think the game has more holes than a sponge, but discussing them here would get us way off topic, so I'll just say that people relatively new to the setting are going to have a lot of questions since it's so far out there, and there aren't good answers for a lot of them at the moment. I get that some people do it just to antagonize, but there are other people who do the same thing honestly, and who will ask questions like "In Ghur, where does the ocean go when the land eats it?" And are genuinely curious/confused by it.