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Thank you guys so much! So far I've got a magic-heavy approach to try to get a lot of MWs done at max range to try to nuke my deployment zone, a range-heavy configuration that will do more consistent damage, but have to deal with my saves and save-after-save, and a whole lot of info on how to deliver it. The Soulscream Bridge and the Umbral Spellportal will change his game drastically. Okay, last question before we see if he can nuke me this weekend: What do you guys do when it starts to go south on you? What tools do you have to correct mistakes or try to turn a bad game around?

Also, I have question. If you are able to get your bonus to cast up, like say to +8 with your various means, and you roll a 12, then is the cast total an actual 20? So an unbind attempt would have to be 21 or better, somehow? I get that it's a risk/reward sort of thing, but I want to give good advice and be accurate when I package all this up for him. Also, telling him that my, at best +3 to unbind/dispel, can't touch him if he's that lucky will be a nice bonus.

Of course I will. If I can swing it, I'll have a full blog post with pictures.

Not wrong. Most of our heroes are 5 to 6 wounds, 12 at most and that's rare and expensive. We do get a save after save, though, so I'd add half as many wounds back in just to make sure the chances are in your favor. Knight of Shrouds on Steed, for example, I'd hedge 9 wounds to make sure he's truly dead. I do get used to not having to watch my flank and that'd certainly put me on the back foot. And, yes. He's thrown Hallowheart, Hammerhal, and Phoenix Guard at me. Hallow gave me the most trouble.

There's no one list. I've had successes with a few crazy ones and a lot of standard ones. You can usually expect to see from me a Knight Shrouds on Ethereal Steed, Dreadblade Harrows as a general, a Guardian of Souls or a Spirit Torment, and a Vampire Lord, all supporting Chainrasps and Bladegheists. If I'm not feeling traditional, then I go in with the Dolorous Guard/ Forgotten Scions combo where the KoSoES is the general, buffed, and supported by the Hexwraiths who are the targets of all the increased attacks, and they screen some Chainrasps that camp objectives. Not to put a too fine if a tip on it, the usual issues against me are that my mobility means I'm on an objective early in any game, and he has to then remove me. Whatever my threat units happen to be, I'm not afraid to invest my CP into All Out Attack, All Out Defense, and more likely Forward to Victory, trying to land that Wave of Terror charge. I can be very aggressive, target squishy units like his crossbowmen, and take out the general.

Hey everyone, Nighthaunt player here sneaking into your thread. I've got a special request for you all. I want you to destroy me. My friend and I play 1500 point lists, give or take 20 points, and ever since I figured out my niche against him he's been unable to really fight back. We're going on some 6 or more games now where I've pretty much won by turn 2 or 3. And these aren't close calls, either. I want him to have fun, and it's not fun when you're staring down what you feel is an inevitable loss. And he's no slouch, himself, but he's just not been able to dedicate the time to research and experiment to the best of his ability. And that's not his fault, for reasons I can't really get in to. I want to give him a break in the form of a formidable list and a strategy that goes with it, and I'm hoping by asking the experts we can do this for him. Give me your best lists that tear apart Nighthaunt. Bring your A game. Target my heroes, deal massive mortal wounds, keep me away from your fleshy units, or whatever it is that gives you guys an edge over me. Make it hurt.

Since I'm always from Hysh, if I'm taking the Cairn Wraith I'll usually give him a NH artifact. Sometimes Midnight Tome so he can Shademist whatever unit he's with, but more often Slitter. Slitter has slain half of entire units for me. Just make sure he's in the middle of the front line and don't activate him to fight until the enemy unit you're targeting is exhausted for that round and, voila, half a unit gone.

That's really the only correction needed for what I said. I wasn't confusing it with Feed on Terror, I just misstook when CSE triggers. I'll go correct that now. It does have a range, though. The trigger is battlefield-wide, but the heal or model return is within 6" of the ST. The whole unit has to fit or you can't deploy it. Nothing is slain unless you can't deploy it by the start of the 4th battleround, so you have 3 movement phases to find a spot.

You could bring a Knight of Shrouds and lower that 4+, but that's not what they're for. They've got Frightful Touch, you want 6s, and you want a lot of them. Dolorous Guard gives +1 attack on a charge, and a Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed will give another. Vampire Lord, too, if you like. It's those mortal wounds you want. Oh, and the extra health for your general. Kurdoss is fun, but I don't play him a lot. He only has a chance to steal the first CP your opponent gets at the top of the turn, and not any of the others they might get through whatever shenanigans, so he basically becomes an expensive beat stick. But that box gives you some great other units that you might want to get more of. Tons of Chainrasps are a must, more Reapers until you net 30, as many Bladegheists as you can. The rest have their uses, like getting a second set of Hexwraiths to take advantage of any battalion they appear in like Dolorous Guard, which is really good. As for heroes there's a few you'll always see: -Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed: needed for the Forgotten Scions battalion, and one of the leader options for the Shroudguard battalion, both great battalions. He can spend CPs to grant units +1 attacks. -Knight of Shrouds (on foot): Also one of the leader options for Shroudguard. He can spend CPs to give every unit in a bubble around him +1 to hit, and it's stackable, so 2 CP is +2 to hit within that bubble. -Reikenor the Grimhailer: The last of the options for Shroudguard and one of the best casters in the game. We don't have great spells, but there are a few you'd want his ability to get either a +1 or +3 to cast on, like his Wraithstorm spell, Lifestealer, or the endless spell Chronomantic Cogs. -Guardian of Souls: Necessary for the Chainguard battalion (another great one) and is a caster that comes with the only model return spell we've got, Spectral Lure. Give him Spectral Tether and you've got a dedicated healer. Too bad there's unbinding likely and unless you give the GoS the Wychlight Lantern artefact there won't be much to ensure the cast. He's got a passive +1 to Wound bubble, though. That's... helpful. -Dreadblade Harrows: You get two of these in a box, which is great for the Forgotten Scions, but unless you run that battalion you'll only need one. He makes a great General thanks to his teleportation ability, so he can stay safe, show up to use a command trait like Ruler of the Spirit Host, cast a spell if he has the Midnight Tome artefact, or use the Command Ability Spectral Summons to teleport units to him. He breaks the game in terms of mobility and objective capture, especially combined with From the Underworlds They Come. Spirit Torment: This pretty much rounds out any of the "must have" heroes. Necessary, along with Chainghasts, for The Condemned battalion (gives 'rasps some damage potential), passive "reroll 1's" to any units within range of the bubble, Bladegheists get a reroll everything buff with him near by. But his real benefit is Captured Soul Energy, which is one of the few healing or model return abilities we have that can't be interrupted (the others being RotSH, the Black Coach, and Olynder). It triggers whenever at least 3 enemy models were killed in a round by the time a battleshock phase starts, and if so, heals either D3 (or 3 if those enemies were Stormcast) wounds or models to a unit within 6" inches of the Spirit Torment. Very versatile, as you get to choose if you want to heal or return models even if they're damaged, or you can opt to heal heroes, and the whole bit works whenever 3 enemies are killed, so even in your opponent's turn. -All the rest of the heroes, including Olynder, are situational at best and filler on the shelf at worst. Lord Executioner is hard to kill, Tomb Banshee can scream at low Bravery targets, and the Cairn Wraith is so cheap he can just be there to make sure your out-of-pocket units can have Command Abilities options and their Deathless Spirits save.

WoT won me my game today. It was an even trade for three turns, we being petty equal in both points and wounds dealt. Each turn was a pretty good trade in terms of either of us pushing for ground and then losing it on the opponent turn. Pretty fun, actually, not knowing just who was really winning or who was in danger. If you were to look at it at any moment you'd be hard pressed to know the outcome. And then I landed 3 WoT charges in one turn. My opponent conceded. He had a clear chance at winning. It was his game to lose, really, I had overcommitted and had lost a hero, and was not going to take much more damage before I lost multiple complete units. But landing 3 WoTs meant I'd basically have a whole combat phase plus the start of my actual combat phase before he could answer any of it. He didn't think it was worth it. It really is that powerful, which is why it has to be rare. It just sucks that it's locked behind a totally random mechanic with no other way to hedge the chances other than multiple tiny units or command points. Oh, it is. Expensive, but really worth it. I honestly believe it's one of our best battalions and that, even though it's tough to fit it in under 2K, it should be most of our lists in some way. I'm really, really hoping it sees a lot of tournament play and we see it do extremely well.

Nighthaunt likes a lot of smaller units so a player can get a lot of charge rolls each turn on the hopes that at least one will trigger Wave of Terror. That unanswered attack in the charge phase is just that powerful. I like to run them more medium-sized. Like, enough models to get everything into combat, plus one size up more as fodder to get chipped away at. It's not always optimal with how our points lie, though. I've found, by far, the best strategy is to misdirect a bit; a large group of something that you don't intend to support, but likely to still be useful enough to draw fire, and combine that with your real threat units running at small numbers. Something like 20 Reapers to be your sacrificial lamb and multiple 10-man Bladegheists with all the fixings being the actual damage dealers. Really, it's just our flavor of the tried-and-true hammer and anvil technique. Give your opponent a hard anvil to crash into and then slam them with your multiple hammers.

Not a bad looking list at all. Lots of MSUs to try to nail WoT is good.

Oh, no, Dolorous Guard absolutely can kill stuff. But it's not as one-sided as, say, Bladegheists. To use DG effectively you will want to charge with both units and whomever their general is. Likely best general for this is the Knight of Shrouds on Steed because of the +1 attacks he can give both units and himself. That alone will do decent damage against anything with a high save. Be sure to give the Knight an artifact that boosts his capability. Shadow's Edge with all those 6 chances averages about 2 MW and 2 savable wounds. Headman's Judgement will average about 4 savable wounds. Midnight Tome + Reaper's Scythe will average 5 savable wounds, but introduce a potential cast fail (not likely) and unbind (more likely). If you take Forgotten Scions you can basically add 1 MW/wound to all those values.

You mean something like this? Skip to the summary at the end to get my rambling review on them.

Absolutely. But that's January. Not all of 2020. Still have an entire year to see what develops.

Want a glimmer of hope? "It’s just as well a lot of you have recently started new Chaos forces, as you are going to have lots of undead to kill in 2020." - GW New Year Open Day 2020 Discuss.

I have to agree. We've sort of devolved into a whine thread instead of discussion. At the moment I hate anything that brings massive ranged attacks, and that's mostly Cities of Sigmar. It's not great to stare at 60 long range attacks at 2+/2+. And I never liked armies that look like you rummaged around in your old D&D model bag and turned it inside out. I mean, I get they are factions of the left over cities and tribes that banded together, but if large part of your army could be represented by a junk drawer, I just want to kill it dead and move on.

Our wishes are cyclical, which is good. It means we're always wanting the same things to be changed. More healing - We're ghosts and feel like we should be able to come back easier than we currently can. More reach - We're ghosts, and so we feel like we should be able to leverage our etherealness in some way, like piling in more or swarming easier. More terror - No one likes Wave of Terror as it is, but we acknowledge we live or die by it, so we want it in a more reliable state than a random low chance. More magic - We have, at best, 50% cast chance spells that we seem to rely on when all of the above aren't in our favor, and when they aren't in our favor neither is our cast roll. We'd like something that makes casting feel more impactful, be it longer range, casting fail protection, or spells that could make up for our lack of raged attacks. This may be wishful thinking, but if we can stay on message about our wants and needs then there is a chance that someone who needs to see this will see it, and maybe they'll listen.

Too true for most of that. I'd settle for a passive Ruler of the Spirit Hosts across all heroes. Legion of Grief showed the world that a Legions-style healing mechanic beats battalions, artefacts, and spells in terms of competitiveness. So splitting the difference would pretty much fix it for me.

Wishful thinking, or...

For Chainghasts to be packs of 10 either they would have to be extremely expensive (350 points, or if that was their max and had a discount, 310), or lose their Another Link in the Chain ability. But, it would solve our non-existent shooting phase. A very close range one, but one nonetheless.

Can you imagine? Such a simple change would make a huge difference. We do have a real chance as it is, currently. We're a 45%-or-so winrate army at the tournament level, and probably a bit higher now with the two new battalions. We'll have to see, but we're not trash. I've made the point before that we're more like assassins than an army; if we prepare for the enemy then they are going down, but we're not well-rounded enough that a single list can make it at most tournaments. Our strengths are also our weaknesses. I agree we need a complete rework of our base Nighthaunt abilities. We were sold on an army that was fast, deadly, and neverending. Yeah, we're fast. Deadly? Only on a 10, really. Neverending? Not even close. FEC can spend a CP to fight again, and even get it for free once a turn. They can also resurrect and summon certain units. And any Legions army can return any destroyed unit for a CP.

No pictures or videos in this one, but I get into what I like and don't like about an Olynderbomb using Dolorous Guard, and my takes on the two new battalions we got from White Dwarf.

If you haven't read round one, The Christmas Day Massacre, over here, give it a gander. It has videos! Unfortunately round two will not. Sorry! For the rematch we used the exact same lists as we did on Christmas day, no alterations or substitutions were allowed. The only changes were the battle plan, the terrain placement, and however we decided to deploy and play. Battleplan: The Relocation Orb Terrain: Open War Terrain 35-36, no terrain with warscrolls Deployment I won the roll-off and deployed first. I deployed pretty much identically as I did the previous game; Olynder into reserves along with eventually the rest of the "Olyderbomb", and everything else on the table. In this battleplan I opted to be on the south side of the map, once again setting my Bladegheists directly across from the objective, and my Chainrasps Hordes on either side of the map to get ready to catch the orb when it flies either way. One of my Dreadblades backed up the Bladegheists and the other one of the 'rasp hordes. Cities deployed pretty much the opposite of how he did last time. Instead of placing his Demigryphs and General on Griffon into reserve, only his Crossbows and General on foot took time off the table. Everything else he set square in the center with a flank of Guard, split in two units, on either side of the table. In essence, his deployment mirrored mine, but with his threat units already on the table. I finished deployment first and opted to go second. Gameplay I'm sorry to say this was another quick game. 3 turns in total, and a loss for me and my Nighthaunt. Oh, sorry, spoilers. But, the point of this and the last game were to test the Dolorous Guard with Olynder, not win, and that is exactly what I did. So, given that, I'm going to focus on Our Lady and her retinue's performance in this, which was phenomenal. I went second in order to give Cities a chance to open a backfield option for me to drop the bomb, but he was wise and, understandably, wary from the last encounter and didn't provide the opportunity. Instead, I was forced to either hold the bomb in reserve for another turn and let him beat on my Bladegheists, or drop it in front of them and just get the ball rolling. I opted for option two and dropped the whole lot right in front of both his General on Griffon and Celestial Hurricanum. So, let's cut to the good stuff, why not. What the Dolorous Olynderbomb does well is nuke. On the turn I dropped them they couldn't engage, only one unit of Hexwraiths made the charge, and so I denied it and chose to stand ominously there, instead. But on top of the second turn I won the roll and, this time, REMEMBERED my hero phase. I got off both Soul Cage and Grief-Stricken, and then proceeded to just delete the General. Imagine this: You've got the wound-potential of Lady Olynder; Lifting the Veil for 2-6, Wail of the Damned for another 1-3 if you beat the bravery check, an average of 2+ more from her staff, and another 2+ from her Handmaidens for anywhere from 1 or 2 wounds to 13+. Pretty good, if a bit swingy. But what if I told you that you can pretty much eliminate that swingyness? How, you ask? Simple: Hexwraiths. I brought two units of 5 Hexwraiths, who on the charge can average 2+ MWs and another 4+ standard wounds each unit. Now, especially if you get Soul Cage off, you're swinging for 6 MWs pretty much minimum before they can retaliate, but more likely more than that. Oh, and why not add the Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed and pop his +1 attacks on Olynder and both Hexwraith units? Doesn't 13 wounds and 11 MWs on average sound great? I thought it might. On turn 2 I engaged the General on Griffon. He didn't survive. On turn 3 I engaged the Celestial Hurricanum. It didn't survive. Both turns my opponent tried to snipe Olynder by targeting one unit of Hexwraiths that weathered the attacks exceptionally well instead of going directly for her. This puts your opponent on the back foot when engaging your general and the Dolorous Guard is in play; do they go for the general on the chance enough damage gets through, or do you try to eliminate the extra health pool and damage first? Neither choice is good for them, which is great for us. The reason I lost is that I didn't play the objectives at all and wasn't able to claim any points by end of turn 3. I could have, if I had remembered my KoSoES had the Pendant of the Fell Wind I would have been able to cover the objective without question from turn 2 on no matter where it was on the map, but I didn't because me playing a game and remembering everything I can do IN that game are just not things that seem to happen. It's what separates the casuals from the pros, and I'm afraid I'm a filthy casual. Summary The goal of these rounds was to test Lady Olynder backed up by both the Dolorous Guard and Forgotten Scions against a more modern army from a new book and answer two questions: Is Lady Olynder relevant again? Are these new battalions any good? So, let's answer question 1. Is Lady Olynder relevant again? Yes, with certain caveats. Olynder can play only a couple of roles solidly; a support level 2 wizard with a powerful spell or a mortal wound assassin. She lost relevance because as newer books came out other casters started getting natural ways to buff their casting chances, or longer range spells for the same cast value, and putting her in position to use Grief-stricken also meant throwing her away after a round or two. And that was the better option. To actually use her MWs to benefit you needed to get closer, 10" at least, and that meant melee combat where she would surely take her 7 wounds pretty quickly. Not anymore. With the Dolorous Guard, it became very clear that a 2+ is going to be likely to give her staying power. On average 1 of every 4 or 5 wounds will hit her, meaning she can be expected to soak up all 27 wounds before she drops with a minimum DG deployment and decent rolls. And I'm talking in a single turn. Give her a hero phase to breathe and watch her heal from Grave-sands of Time if she's too low, or Lifestealer/Spectral Tether if she takes that, but more likely just popping CP to bring her DG back and refiling her health pool. The drawbacks are still quite terrible, though. Being honest here, to make Olynder a model you want to place on the board in her current state you will need to spend her points and the DG's minimum points. You're looking at a new hero, basically, costing 600 points. 600 points for a 6" move, two spells/unbinds, 2-9 MWs at range, but suddenly 24 wounds when in melee range. A melee range that is her base plus 10 hexwraith bases long, wide, or otherwise configured for that 3" battalion requirement. 600 points for a hero that is still 2 drops. 600 for a hero that has to be your general. No, you won't see her burning up tournament tables anytime soon. Don't get me wrong, she's now extremely powerful when built this way, but for that many points there will just be better options. Question two, are these battalions any good? Oh my Nagash, yes! Hexwraiths are legit! That extra attack on the charge adds up across 10 models, making them put out slightly less mortal wounds than two packs of Spirit Hosts, but with twice the speed. They play different roles, of course, but with the side-buff of the Dolorous Guard Hexwraiths are now legitimate options for battlelines and swinging at anything with a high save. Did I mention that one of those two big bads I absolutely nuked in both games had a 2+ save? Well, it did, and both times the Hexwraiths brought the MWs that made the difference. Now, I had them paired with a slow general, so their Spectral Hunters ability never saw any play. There just wasn't enough movement to set it up. Maybe with a faster general that will show itself to be useful, but what's great here is that's a sheer bonus and not a necessary mechanic you need to maneuver in order to make these guys work. No, +1 attacks on a charge and a minimum 10 models in close proximity pretty much fixes their problems. It's almost like GW is telling us we were playing them wrong all along... And as for the Forgotten Scions? This is less easy to put a pin on the exact reason this battalion is good or bad. On the good side of things who doesn't like a free +1 attacks to a unit for a combat phase. And since it's any combat phase, this free activation can mean a counter-attack boost in your opponent's combat phase when they are not expecting it. But, it doesn't fix the Knight's lesser quality buff, being that it doesn't extend the duration of the +1 attacks beyond a combat phase, and that free activation is once per battleround. Oh, and who brings two Dreadblade Harrows? That's a point tax if there ever was one. Still, there's room for synergy here. The battalion gives the Knight his own buff passively, meaning it can stack with an activation, netting him 6 attacks if you want to get freaky with it, and all for free. Without any other support he's going to be swinging for the skies like that. Make him your general and bring the Dolorous Guard and now we're looking a truly formidable force. What kind of artefacts should he have like that? Shadow's Edge is suddenly relevant; a D3 Frightful Touch on 6 attacks? That's about 3 MW on average and another 3 savable. How about Headman's Judgement? 6 attacks at 2+/2+/-1 and 2 damage each? About 6 standard wounds. Oh, what about Slitter? Want to make your opponent lose half a unit on their turn? With a 12" movement across the whole lot, you're likely going to be right in the middle of whatever unit you're going to take on, and if you can take the hits first (which you can thanks to DG) then when it's your counter, slit the middle and see if they are out of cohesion at the turn of the phase. Yeah, these are good. If I were to rank them: Dolorous Guard > Forgotten Scions > Shroudguard > The Condemned = Chainguard, and then maybe Deathriders. The rest? The rest of what?

Number one: Play the objectives. There are very few battleplans that require you to take on the big bad across the table directly, and those that do often have a more fair way to gain those points other than total annihilation. We are a superior army when it comes to objective claiming and defending with our quick units and From the Underworlds. Two: Know your tricks and tactics. Use the rules as written to your advantage. For example, most battleplans don't require you to hold an objective, just to claim it and then deny your opponent from claiming it. Depending on battleplan that could be as simple as zoning in on the objectives on turn 1 with From the Underworlds and then charging with everything at the enemy just to deny them getting close enough to flip the claim in the turns limit. Three: Take battalions. One or two, given points being played. In our army battalions are synonymous with specializing or equipment loadouts. They allow you to counter an enemy by choosing from a variety of benefits that usually exploit specific enemies. You already know that Khorne will shut down magic and love close combat, so Shroudguard is a solid counter. Four: Target weaknesses. Khorne relies on their heroes just like we do, so target them. With our flying we can move over and retreat through the front lines to attack a hero or general. We also have artifacts, like Slitter, than can halve a unit under the right conditions, or can target specific models. Reikenor, even though he's a mage, can use his Snuff on specific models to remove buffs from a unit. Five: Don't forget your own buffs. His brand new big bad that'll squish anything that gets too close? Grab a battle-capable hero, make him a general, give him Ruler of the Spirit Host, bring the Dolorous Guard battalion, and give him an artifact that'll greatly increase his wound output. Hell, this set-up with a Knight of Shrouds on foot with the Sword of Judgement and spending 3 CP means every 3 on a die roll is a D6 mortal wounds if you're attacking a hero or monster. I would never argue this to win a game, but bringing a hard counter to his set-piece can be a great reminder that not only does a giant threat not win games, but Nighthaunt is an excellent counter army.