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Deathless is very minor unless you face a lot of mortals, and even then I rather have good frontage. CS will be up since you are only breaking the 6" bubble if you charge and then CS won't work anyway. I've seen a lot of people share your sentiment that 40s of Mortek is too unwieldy, but my experience from both tournaments and casual games is that its the best way to play them (at least for me). I've seen people place top 3 in big tournaments with both 20s and 40s so obviously both work.

Shield wall doesn't have a range requirement. You keep them within 6" early to enable Advance and CS, then break up "formation" if you get a good charge to get proper frontage.

I feel like movement trays are a huge handicap so I never use them. In my opinion a unit of 40 morteks is the most competitive option, I much rather take 40-10-10 than 20-20-20. Looking at tournaments both set ups seems about equally common.

Attack or +hit buffs doesn't matter, the math stays the same. They both get the same damage increase from +1 A, +1 to hit or both. In the end the difference is usually pretty minor but there are situations where spears severely underperform. The Mortek guard mirror is a good example, where 24 swords does twice as much damage as 36 spears. Swords also does a fair bit better vs 3+ save with RR1. Spears does better vs low armor stuff but usually just overkill damage, horrors being the one exception. If you already have spears on then you shouldn't notice much difference unless you face a lot of mirror matches or 3+ saves. Yeah I always take 40+20+10 or 40+10+10 morteks. You need to keep the Hekatos in the middle of the unit (as in not in the front rank) to have them within 6" but a lot of the time its better to just forgo the 6+ ward and CA's to get a better frontage. It's a little awkward sometimes, but I usually have a Boneshaper trailing after that can help them staying inside the buff-bubble if I need to.

I didn't model any of my morteks with spears so I haven't tried them but its pretty easy to math out. Basically spears will outperform blades slightly vs 4+ save, assuming you get the same amount of models into combat with spears just getting 1 extra rank (i.e. 20 swords vs 30 spears or 24 vs 36) until you can get 30 swords into combat at which point they start to outperform the spears. The swords quickly get better as you take casualties.

KO, Seraphon and Tzeentch are the best performing armies right now. Both Slaanesh and OBR used to be OP but dropped down to mid tier, partly due to nerfs and partly due to inherent weakness to shooting (all 3 top factions are shooting heavy). I would however strongly recommend not buying whatever is top tier just for the sake of playing something OP. New rules, new armies and regular updates usually means that no-one stays on top for longer than 4-6 months before they fall from grace. Chasing the flavour of the month is a good way to get angry and disappointed.

A big difference is when the wounds are allocated though. Evocators deals MWs after their attacks are finished, while sneks attack with their crystal touch at the end of combat (giving your opponent an opportunity to either strike back and reduce your numbers or remove models as you mentioned). On paper it seems like a sidegrade. You will deal a lot more MWs now with big units (and you only really saw them in 20s before at least), but it will come at the end of combat which is less impactful.

No you can only use the abilities on the warscroll. The Engine doesn't have a CA and therefore cannot use one (except the generic ones that all heroes can use).

This will likely be fixed in the GHB errata. The GHB was written before the new Seraphon book so that's most likely why they aren't listed as allies.

He don't really need help clearing 10 khanari, but I get what you're saying. I just see a lot of hyperbole in this thread that is either "omg Teclis is insta-win" or "lol just 1 shot him bruv" and felt the need to speak out and the Khanari comment just caught my eye.

As mentioned before, if he has 5+ and quartz left they won't even bracket him. As for the other stuff, I only commented on the statement that "10 lifetakers can kill him", and they can't. I never tried to claim that Teclis is unkillable (nor is he gonna be a free kill, this is quickly becoming a "just kill the heroes" conversation). Of course they can be buffed, but the original comment was about dropping 10 lifetakers on his head and trying to take him out when he is in the back line. Even if you charge him normally with CoM hes only taking 4,69 wounds with his defences up (+0.5 wounds or something like that from shields). If its turn 3 he has also generated a ton of value already (and if he hasn't then the RLR player is gonna lose anyway cause he dropped 660 points into something that didnt get a pay off).

They come down in the movement phase so they cant be buffed.10 Lifetakers does an avarage of 6.67 wounds when dropping down and charging vs 4+ save, 4,44 vs 3+ save and 2,96 vs 3+ 5++ which isn't even enough to bracket him.

10 life takers are not gonna take him out, not even close. Especially if its turn 2 and he's had a chance to get 5++, double especially if he has quartz left.

With Teclis he can be pretty survivable. 4++ fomr Zaitrec artifact, 5++ from Teclis spell. +1 save from sniffing quartz (don't know the base save, but hey its something). 4+ spell shrug from Teclis. Potentially -1 to hit from battle cattle (but then half your army is Teclis, Stonemage and Cow level). Are RLR always from hysh? Otherwise there are some defensive realm artifacts. Without Teclis its a lot harder.

Please do!

Oh right, yeah if it's a normal BS test that can be dodged with 1 CP the it's very easy to play around. Guess it depends a lot on what you are facing. Oh well 2+ to ignore BS is nice, if you can bounce some damage back it's just a bonus.

Am I understanding the translarion of the Cathaller ability correctly? It can bounce BS tests WITH modifiers? So an archer unit gets charged and loses 16 models and bam, +16 bs test for an enemy unit in range (even worse with the mountain bravery spell)? And wouldn't that work to one-shot character and monsters that usually are safe from BS? Seems nuts.

Seen a lot of Waagh lists running 30 arrowboyz (in lists with mostly IJ units). How are these used? They seem pretty pathetic without buffs and proper synergy (30 boyz forces 15 saves with 0 rend, hardly impressive or cost effective shoo- i mean dakka), so I cant imagine their taken purely as shooting support.

I used to be a sword guy for similar reasons but that was in the old book when the rod was worse and you usually "telelported" forward in the hero phase and flew back in the move phase, leaving you outside of 18". Now you are gonna be in range a lot more since your spell is also 18". For damage, the sword does an avarage of 2.08 wounds vs 4+ save but its super yanky (basically 45-45% chance of getting 3 or 0, and 10% of getting 6). The rod shoots for an avarage of 2.07 but is less yanky, which means shooting + charging is basically the same damage as charging with a sword. Of course when you throw in shooting penalties like look-out-sir into the mix, or if your target has better save the sword starts be a more clear winner in melee. The rod will however deal a lot more damage during the course of a game. Destiny dice makes the sword a lot more appealing (almost 50% chance of doing 6 wounds, 10% chance of doing 0), but I often find that there are better uses for them, even for the kind of awkward 4s. The rod adds steady damage that might not seem like much on its own, but you have a lot of that kind of shooting and it really adds up. I guess this is more up to personal experience and playstyle but my LoC is never in combat unless the game is basically either won or lost already. The rod is consistent and always performs decently while the sword is more of a "silver bullet" kind of deal. I used to like the idea of being able to drop some DD and smash something with 3-6 damage but I have never been in a situation where that would have had a deciding impact on a game, which made me switch to rod.

Thanks! Hmm would this be a more competitive shooty list?: Starborne (either FoS or DT) Starseer, Priest, Starpriest, Kroak, Astrolith 3x12 Salamanders, 40x 10x 10x Skinks Vortex This leaves 90pts to get some more endless (maybe bound Geminids? or Burning head & +1CP?) or spend on something else.

No, I don't really care about rule of cool, I mainly want to optimize. The only "rule" Im interested in is having a shooty list because my IJ and FEC armies are pure combat armies. I already have 1 bastiladon so I'll hold off on getting a 2nd for now.

Good call, thanks! Bound is definitely a game changer with this one. They are decent with just double taps and no +hit (8 dmg instead of 10.66 vs 4+ save) but I see your point. Dropping one seems optimal. Side note, am I missing something about the Ark or is it just absolute garbage? It just seems incredibly bad. Was gonna magnitize it but then I was like, why bother? Yeah I was trying to avoid big hordes of skinks, partly because I enjoy the big dinos more, partly because its so time consuming moving and rolling dice for giant blocks of skinks. The utility of Starborne is undeniable though, and teleporting + deep striking seems both fun and very strong. Yeah I was thinking about an Astrolith but seemed like a waste if play coalesced since I'm paying for CCP I cant use. If I switch sub-faction I'll include one for sure. I feel +2 cast is good enough though, only the 3rd deliverance cast gets kinda iffy (58% chance of success). Could always drop a Bastil in favor of one. That sounds hilarious, didn't even think of how the deep strike and teleport could be combined. Starting to lean more and more towards Starborne. Thanks for the feedback both of you! Definitely given me lots to consider.

How is this looking for a competitive shooting oriented list? Lord Kroak (320) Skink Priest (70) Skink Starseer (140) General, Master of Star Rituals, Fusil of Conflagration 10 x Skinks (60) - Javelins 10 x Skinks (60) - Javelins 10 x Skinks (60) - Javelins 10 x Skinks (60) - Javelins 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) Bastiladon (220) Bastiladon (220) Balewind Vortex Total: 1970pts Wounds: 130 General thoughts: Strenghts Bastiladon provides long range damage (easy turn 1 damage with run & shoot), and I should generate enough +CP to double tap every turn. +50% damage to Daemons is a solid bonus, plenty of those around. Salamanders go behind skink screen and dish out a ton of high rend damage (with some MW sprinkled on top) and with +1 Jaw attack they're equally scary in melee. Kroak puts a clock on the game by dealing constant AoE mortal wounds. Vortex + Vassal means Celestial Deliverance has a 28" range (up from 10"), and Comet deals global mortals wounds to pick off support units. Stellar Tempest to deal with hordes. Weaknesses Not a lot of bodies for objectives, but not that few either. Coalesced means low bravery. especially on sallies, but I have decent +CP generation and can pick Celestial Harmony on the Starseer so there are some ways to deal with it. A lot is also riding on the Starseer who is VERY squishy. Reliant on CP so bad +CP rolls can cripple the list. Edit: Also no idea what to do with the last 30 pts. Can drop 10 skinks and make it 90pts (still no clue what to do with those points though).

They have good math if you double tap with them in a Thunder lizards.

How would this work with tournaments with pre-placed terrain? I guess tournaments would have to use house rules for it? Or just straight up ban it i guess, if you're playing RAW.