Landohammer

Yes this is 70% of the value of Steelhelms. Otherwise they are just cheap human bodies. The ward sticks around after they die and is useful for much more valuable units like Cavaliers and Fusiliers and big heroes. I mean as a Sylvaneth player we are currently rocking a 43% win rate so there is only so much cheese he can do lol. This is probably late but your list looks a bit short on melee threats. You may want some more cavaliers or maybe some executioners otherwise Hunters and Bugs will body you off the table. Let me know how it goes regardless!

Sorry I worded that badly. Basically the gist of my point is that I ultimately never end up using the +1 to save ability. Its an awesome ability that is just completely eclipsed by blazing weapons. I wish they would have spread some of the warforger warscroll "love" around to other heroes lol. Flagellants are fine if you bring Pontifex. But the reason I prefer Wildercorps is below (sorry for the novel, i really like them lol) A) they can actually do something while they are screening. Their shooting is not insignificant, especially if they find themselves in range of blazing weapons. B) They hit a bit harder than steelhelms. Most opponents arent going to use their first activation to kill a screen, so often your screens offense matters more than their defense. Wildercorps have 29 attacks vs steelhelms 21 and the dog attacks are straight up better. C) The free pregame move is huge for purposes of screening. It can net you significantly more breathing room regardless of who goes first. D) They are harder to shoot off. The best way to deal with screens is to shoot them off. But wildercorps are largely immune to shooting. E) They can overwatch. I know this sounds silly, but 14 shots isn't a joke especially if you are in blazing weapons range. In my last game between overwatch and activation I managed to kill 2 OBR stalkers. (one was wounded but hey it still counts!) F) You get an extra dude. Admittedly its not as good as a 4+ save but its a nice bit of icing on the cake! I think the ward and battleline unlocks will mean everyone always brings one unit of steelhelms, but when it comes to actual in game capabilities the wildercorps are worth every bit of that 40pts.

I also think they need a point drop but 90 is probably fine. Right now they are only like 2.7pts per model cheaper than Wildercorps and wildercorps just run circles around them. So I think they would be good but that is a lot of investment because you would also need a 150pt and 110pt hero to support them to get those results. So it becomes more like 560pts and the spells and prayers can fail. I think fusiliers, cavaliers or even wildercorps would be better to build around. Agreed. The primal dice system favors the unbinder. I think our armies biggest weakness is that damage output only becomes formidable if you get actually Blazing Weapons off. I find myself throwing every primal dice at it and even taking the +1 to cast buff over the +1 armor save buff just for extra help. I have been deploying the warforger really far back to try and stay out of unbind range but thats only possible on early turns.

I always bring one unit of steelhelms since one squad unlocks 1 unit of Fusiliers AND 1 unit of Wildercorps as battleline. (the app has this wrong but thats how the book reads). I don't see any reason to bring two unless you just don't have points for wildercorps. Wildercorps outperform Steelhelms in every way that matters and get a free pregame move which is absolutely huge for screening.

Cool thanks for the data. I think the internet is tending to side against us on if if she can rez humans that are not in combat. RAW both her and humans have to both be in combat but that seems suuuuper situational for that cost. Hopefully it is corrected soon. Also keep in mind Belthanos adds two EXTREMELY valuable abilities to the sylvaneth army (advance and charge and retreat and charge) and has much better saves 3+/5+ vs 4+/6+. So even if she surpasses him in damage he still dwarfs her in terms of value. That being said the Lioness model is 10/10 and I will absolutely be using her but i'm gonna be mad about her cost everytime I put her into a list.

Its almost like they are really afraid of Cannons in Greywater. But they don't seem to realize that even though you can duplicate All out attack, you still need 1 hero per cannon to capitalize on that. And who is going to camp a 100pt hero near a 150 cannon with 2 shots? Yea I am still excited about the army because I love the models but i'm not super confident I am going to win many games. My record with the old points was 2-5-1 lol.

Yea I'm fine with the things that got hikes, but typically you would also see point drops to make the weaker units more appealing. I think Flagellants went up 10 points too. I still think Cavaliers, Cannons, Steelhelms, Dark Shards and much of the dwarf stuff is overcosted. I guess we will have to wait and see how they perform. I just cant see the army being super powerful. Most peoples experience seems to be that they are mid at best.

The app is also not recognizing that a single unit of Steelhelms unlocks both Wildercorps and Fusiliers as battleline. But that may just be an error. Yea I am dissapointed they chose to apply point hikes without providing point drops. My list went up 60 points which means I lose a gyrocopter. Seems like the army was struggling out the gate and this just makes it worse. But I am definitley still excited to play them especially when the new models arrive this weekend.

My devil's advocate thoughts: Curse looks really good on paper but its short range and relatively hard to hit value make it extremely tricky to pull off. You need to already be in range in your hero phase. I often found myself trying get into position for next turn just to end up giving my opponent an easy charge, or failing the 4+ prayer lol. Besides its better served on units with lots of attacks and the Warforgers Blazing Weapons does a similar job and is more reliable. IMHO There are easier ways to get priests rather than committing your entire subfaction to them. Hallowheart seems more useful in a variety of circumstances but keep in mind its a magic meta and many competitive players are bringing strong magic or anti-magic. It would stink to bring Hallowheart into games vs Tzeentch, Khorne, OBR, SBGL, LRL, etc because those guys are going to shut down your critical spells everytime. If I was viewing the subfactions from a purely competitive point of view (and not a fluff one) then Lethis or Mishavn seem like the strongest to me. I actually personally use Greywater in my semi competitive environment just because I know I will get value out of it in the shooting phase just about every game (probably in every turn!)

I do need to try counter charge more often. I am often finding my screens getting in the way of the countercharge but that is probably just my user error. I personally don't have any interest in building/playing a zombie list using steelhelms. That might end up being the meta though. The painting isn't so much the issue for me as much as the playstyle being just "stand around on objectives and don't die" lol. I am itching for Tahlia Vedra too. I think she will be the anchor of the army similar to Morathi or Teclist. But I think the true cheese in the army is going to be charging with the Cavalier marshal and then using his first strike activation shenanigans to activate two squads of cavaliers. If you have engage the foe up (or maybe even a cheeky warforger spell if he can keep up) then I think it will be absolutely devastating. My opponents reactions when they charge and easily kill my 10 cavaliers: "Man cities are kinda bad" My opponents reactions when I charge them with 10 cavaliers with engage the foe: "Man cities are way OP!" 🤣

Quick summary of my experience with the codex after 8 games. Overall going 2-5-1 fielding Greywater 7 times and Living City once. Orders- I run light on heroes (just 2 max) so Pretty much every game has the same sequence. I start with +3 movement on turn 1 to get into position, then use engage the foe on my cavaliers for big charges. I think use Supressing Fire or Return Fire on fusiliers as needed. Most of my heroes are either out of position or dead by turn 3 so its largely not relevant after that lol. Dwarfs- Hammerers hit like a truck and gyrocopters are a steal for their points. I often did just as much damage with gyrocopters as with cannons and gyros melee profile surprised quite a few people. The +3 movement order seems like a godsend here but considering they are "normal moves" only its really only useful on the turns you plan to charge which seem like never. I often found myself just using runs bc they netted more movement. Dwarf orders were extremely weak but at least the dwarf Heroes bring decent buffs themselves. Aelves - Spears are ok screens. Darkshards are bad. Executioners are amazing. Executioners absolutely butchered anything they touched with or without aelven orders. Sorceress is a must have in any aelf list. Humans - I think Cavaliers definitely have some potential. When combined with Engage the foe they can put out a shocking amount of damage. But the squads of 10 are clunky bc only range 1" on their weapons. Fusiliers are the cornerstone of the army BUT ONLY if you keep the +1 to wound artefact near them and all out attack up (greywater helped here). I also tried the marshal on griffin kitted out with the magic runehammer and he always did fine for his cost. The warforger is the best unit in the army clearly and games will often be determined by if he can get his spell off. Steelhelms and Cannons are heavily overpriced but I often found myself fielding them just bc they filled out convenient slots (battleline unlocks or artillery slots in battle regiments). Steelhelms make competent screens but seems like Wildercorps are just flat out better for a mild point/model difference. The cost difference after factoring in the extra body comes out to like 2-3pts per model but they have very significant shooting and the dogs have superior melee profiles. Not even considering the better special rules. Overall - I think most of the book is super fun to play but probably about 15% over costed. The order system tends to fall apart under pressure. I think the Lioness of the Parch and Cavalier Marshal will be interesting additions once they arrive because they add a lot to Cavalier armies. Being able to rally a unit of Cavaliers on 4+ that is in combat seems huge, and being able to chain activate cavaliers with the Cavalier Marshal could lead to alpha strikes where your opponent loses a lot of their army in one charge. I look forward to playing a lot more games!

Yea unfortunately Sisters of the Watch/Shadow Warriors don't have a good proxy option. I feel your pain bc I have 30 sisters of the watch painted. Darkshards are close, but if you plan on taking our one good grand (banners) then you would need to somehow add a banner to 1 in 10. I would definitely not proxy them as Wildercorps, unless you rebase them. Wildercorps have 3 different base sizes and the models have distinct profiles. So in any kind of semi-competitive environment it might not work bc your footprint would be off (especially for screening purposes) and pulling models would be confusing to your opponent. Casualties in wildercorps matter bc each model you pull either diminishes their shooting (pulling bows) or their combat (pulling dogs).

Can you add alarielle? Also does this assume Drycha is embittered? Because I think most players probably leave her in shooty mode. So her melee suffers a bit. (though if she overwatched in shooty mode it would probably net similar results)

Agreed. He just makes the army around him so much better and is cheap enough that losing him doesn't effectively end the game. I wish Alarielle was closer to this scale of a hero. Agreed also. He is such a different animal to durthu or drycha. Durthu's profiles are great but he is so limited in his mobility. And Drycha's speed and range is great but she lacks survivability. Neither model really makes the army around them better. Even Drycha's buff to spites is counter-intuitive because they mostly rely on 6s to hit and she outpaces them. Belthanos just a gives such a huge increase to the armies effectiveness WHILE ALSO having a huge pool of wounds with the best saves in our army. Retreat and charge is a game winner. Bc it means none of our units can be tied down.

In that case I personally will probably avoid the AOR itself and will just field him alongside a normal list. He seems extremely good for his cost.

Does the army of reknown replace the battle traits or stack with it? Yea Belthanos is insanely good. Advance and Charge and Retreat and charge makes Sylvaneth units list bug riders extremely scary. And 14 wounds with 3+/5+ is no joke for that point cost.

So Belthanos is insanely good. Advance and Charge and Retreat and Charge buffs are nuts. But 14 wounds on a 3+/5+ is also really strong and his movement doesn't bracket. For that point cost I can see him going in most lists. The Army of Reknown looks solid but I'm not sure how many quarries you get to pick or how it interacts with seasons. But what we see so far seems good. Giving up a subfaction for access to a stacking buff effect seems worth it. And the units that you are limited too are all the best ones lol.

Battle tactics were created as a means to mitigate superior combat armies from just killing/summoning their way to victory. Which is exactly what happened in 2.0. The 3.0 win/rate percentages are significantly more balanced than in 2.0. They are mirroring the 40k secondary system which is quite well received and also producing positive (if not quite as balanced) results. You HAVE to give up some simplicity/accessibility to improve the sophistication of your game. And a better game keeps and acquires more player.

So how would you even figure out a winner? Like just primary objectives? Or just kill points? See my previous post. You are asking for the most simple and balanced form of Warhammer to ever exist to be more simple and less balanced. You got me reeling here lol.

I mean relatively, AOS is currently the most simple form of traditional Warhammer available. Its a fraction of the complexity of old fantasy and is dwarfed by modern 40K and Horus Heresy in terms of rules complexity. The idea that any form of AOS is too complicated seems like a pretty crazy argument too me. What are you comparing it too? Listbuilding complexity? There are the same number of battalions (plus 2 minus 2) Scoring complexity? There are the same number of battle tactics (plus 4 minus 4) Game rules complexity? One specific unit type got a new keyword and we have 2 new heroic actions. I'm just not seeing any justification for the argument of "complexity" . Besides the new battle plans its like 1 page of rules. The average warscroll has more to memorize than this.

Oof sorry to hear that. We have some of those types of players start showing up to our RTTs and it really kills the mood. When a new/young player with like a Gitz army or a fun themed army gets paired vs a tryhard with a netlist it can kill their entire hobby. Fortunately its only ever like <10% of attendees that do that. Well my main point I want to get across is that a large portion of the active community really appreciate the freshness the GHB brings to the scene.

How often are you playing? Your opinion is actually shared by a lot of folks on this forum and it fascinates me because its so different from my experience as a player. The GHB appeals to the consistent player. My meta (including myself) consists of 20-30 people that play weekly, and attend 1-2 tournaments a month. We consider ourselves pretty casual, as there are guys (mainly GT players) that play ALOT more than us. After 6 months, pretty much everyone in my network are pretty much ready for a refresh. Because a consistent player is going to have 30+ games under those roles. The GT "pros" even more so. I personally always anticipate the new GHB quite a bit. And so does the store managers in my area because of the excitement for events (and revenue) it generates. If you are a narrative/open/SUPER casual player, the GHB doesn't hurt you. You can play the vanilla battleplan from the core rules, a favorite plan from an old GHB, or even just makeup your own. However the GHB updates are fundamentally import to my player network, because its always serves as a kind of revival to my player base.

Rules question: Does the automatic tzeentch endless spell summon provide a fate point? I have been adding one but my opponent said the fate point requires a "casting roll" to trigger. So since the endless spell has no casting roll, it doesn't provide one.

Chicken Meme list update 2 - The Tournament Game 1 vs LRL win 29-18 Eltharion did a lot of work, but his sentinels and wardens were no match for bounty hunter enlightened on disks. Lord of Change summoned on turn 2 and shut down his critical spells. big win Game 2 vs Dok (Morathi/Gotrek/15 snakes) 22-28 I knew this list is essentially unbeatable (the player is also a pro level player) and so I just ran away and tried to nab as many points as possible. Soft loss. Game 3 vs Big Waagh 22-22 This was a super fun game with two wacky lists. I killed all his infantry but his named Mawkrusha ate my entire army. He had a priest do a "stare" attack that did 20 mortals to a unit of enlightened :S. It came out a tie but we gave it to him on battle tactics Ended up taking 6th (out of 12). Chicken meme list official record is 2-1-1. I will take that!

Chicken meme list update 1: Played vs an extremely scary Kragnos Ogor list in a practice game. The list is built to perform ogor charges with 3d6 dice. Its brutal. Turn 1. All 30 acolytes dead. Turn 2. Lots of casualties on both sides. I hit 9 fate points and summon a Lord of Change. (arise chicken!) Turn 3: Only Kragnos, 1 ogor and 1 enlightened left, along with my Magister on Disc and his Ogor tyrant. My lord of change burns off his tyrant with mortals and I turn his last ogor into a chaos spawn lol. Kragnos then eats my Lord of Change ::sad chicken noises:: Turn 4-5: Is just my single enlightened, magister, and spawn running around like benny hill while Kragnos chases us. I miss my battle tactic turn 5 but my opponent misses his grand. Final score 24-23. Chickens win! Tournament on sunday!