NJohansson

From a theme point of view - the list should be really cool on the battlefield. From an efficiency point of view - I think you will struggle against many armies. Chaos warriors are really not that good at dealing damage, taking objectives (low model count) or control (low movement and low threat) when compared to similarly priced units and the same goes for the knights. To add to that - you don’t really use the despoiler benefits/strengths that much (few monsters/princes). Playing against any optimized build will give you a feeling as if you are playing a 1500 point army against a 2000+ one. As to constructive advice - a bit hard since you are investing 1000 points in semi optimal units / not counting said units support. I would strongly recommend going with marauders and if you don’t want them then at least drop down the amount of warriors/knights and invest in a monster (sorcerer lord on manticore for example - added benefit you can actually drop a regular sorcerer lord and save the 110 points) and Be’lakor. With two daemon princes and a monster or two - the faction abilities will make way more sense.

I would recommend any new players to look at strong (as in cost efficient) units over synergy. In the beginning it is relatively hard to play lists where the individual units need to support or set up each other in certain ways - that is why for example there are a lot of “hard” lists (if you look at tournament rankings) that perform very poorly if played by people that do not know how to play said list. Therefore I would recommend anyone starting STD to get at least one unit of 40 marauders and then either two more of 20 or 10 warriors (5 and 5 for the cheapest core requirements), 1-2 gaunt summoners (and the accompanying horrors), Be’lakor, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer lord, the Sorcerer lord on manticore and STD endless spells/the regular endless spells. If you play a list with said models (naturally you will need to mix and try what you like playing) you will have a strong foundation for Cabal, Ravagers (not the princes naturally) and Despoilers and since the models are cost efficient you will feel like you have a fun and strong army (not S tier in any way but not a pushover). Then you could add Archon, Varanguard or a regular daemon prince and anything else you want to try but most other units need to have synergy and especially Archeon (800 points) needs to be tailored around. Hope this helps and make sense

To be fair - an opinion should be expressed carefully and with consideration. Repeating the same thing over and over becomes spamming and is tiering. It’s interesting to discuss pros and cons of lists, efficiency of units, how to play, tactics, etc - it is not interesting to read about that the army is bad, sucks, dull, poorly constructed and should be changed in every possible way. This forum has always been about constructive feedback and positive discussions (for plain negativity there are a dozen other forums). So IMHO could we please change the tone to a more positive/constructive discussion.

But that is actually what all armies should strive for. If the game would be fully balanced then all armies would have 50 percent win rate (+- minor variations for skill/list matchup). If an army has a win rate of 60-70 percent then another must have a win rate of just 40-30 (naturally it can be deluded among several armies) so the best armies (for the game) are those with an even win/loss rate. STD statistic is therefore really great - the armies that need to be changed are the ones with a 55+ win rate or less than high 40. Disclaimer - The above is very simplified.

You keep implying this (that the majority of the book is garbage), based on what? When looking at win rates - STD have pretty average to good win rates (if going by statistic). Based on placings at tournaments - they seem to be frequently in the top field consistently. Based on diversity - there are many different builds floating around, some magic heavy, some summoning, some fast and killy. The only major factor seems that the absolute majority of competitive builds are centered around a base of marauders as core. Other than that STD seems to have more various builds than most other factions. Now, I would also like warriors to be better but that does not make the army weak or bland. Majority of strong armies tend to include the same type of units. Tzeentch - Changehost, Horrors and flamers or loads of casters and Summoners Guild, Slaanesh - KoS, Fyreslayers - HGB, Flesheaters - Vampiers on flying monsters (two kinds)... The list goes on and on, most top armies have a couple of strong builds based on just slight variations (1000+ points are usually the same across the board). As to flavor or how fun the army is to play - have you considered playing a different one? Not trying to be rude - just curious - the army may simply not be to your play style. You might enjoy playing OBR or any other elite infantry based army much more? It took me going through Orcs, Vampire Counts and Chaos Dwarfs before finally settling och Chaos -about 15 - 20 years ago:) Personally I find big hordes of marauders, powerful sorcerers and corrupted monsters very colorful and fitting for chaos. Chaos has always been about overwhelming numbers of warriors and daemons where the forces of light face a night impossible task in stopping the endless legions. Just read any of the old novels (or new ones) - Chaos have powerful warriors but they are a horde. Going by AoS (was not the case in WFB) they are also usually less powerful than their Sigmarite counterparts one on one. So an elite army that is outnumbered is not very chaotic but 100+ charging marauders - backed up by some very deadly elite heroes - definitely is (IMHO)

Ouch - you live and learn ... that gives the offensive DP much more validation/makes the sorcerer lord on manticore even better. Thanks:)

I haven’t found StD in need of the battalions. One drop is nice but you pay points that you really need to spend on other things. Moreover if you go with either of Be’lakor or Archeon then you rarely need the second artifact. As to the DP - Tzeentch one is utter rubbish but the Khorne and sometimes Nurgle can be absolutely brutal. I actually like a Khorne Daemon Prince even in my cabal builds (gives so much board control in the right circumstances and offers a great boost to the Khorne marauders). Probably not S-tier in any way but has provided me good games/wins against many of the more prolific “hard builds”.

At 180 with summoning (even blues) he still is probably a bargain for the points (80-100 points for a two spell wizard, access to both lores and STD endless spells - yes please). Right now I don’t see me ever taking a list without one or two in it unless I go Changehost.

To evolve on this - seems that there are basically armies centered either around 1) daemon princes with Khorne/Nurgle and Be’lakor the main choices (usually despoiler build), 2) arcanist/ravager 2-4 Gaunt summoner and a Manticore hero/other beat stick or 3) Archeon Varanguard army. All of these usually field marauders quite heavily.

Both GS have the STD keyword so both can cast the rift spell (or any other STD spells. As to how good he is - if you don’t go the Changehost route he is really a steal for 240-260 points. Even with one more battle line he is still a 40 point hero that can cast two spells. Not to mention the forward deployment of his summoned unit and that he provides the locus bonus.

Tzeentch actually only get their Locus ability (-1 to hit) when within proximity of heroes, and lot of other mono god abilities also only work in proximity (looking across the various books). Saying that - I do agree that The Tzeentch or Slaanesh book are stronger. My point is that they are stronger than most everything. It feels like the suggested changes (if going on voiced opinion) are not to make the StD a good book (which I believe it is) but that it should be one of the best. Playing STD against Moongrots, Sylvaneth, Chaos Dwarfs, Stormcast (to name just a few) does not feel like the army lacks a real punch. Playing it against 3 Keepers, Eternal Conflagration Changehost or something on that power level - then it feels inadequate (although certain builds can give even said lists a real fighting chance). All this is my subjective opinion but it really feels like lot of players are dissatisfied with the books internal balance (how bad warriors and knights are) and forget to see that most top builds are not that diversified across the board.

I seem to be in the minority on this forum - but I like the book. I think it has lots of strong units in Archaon, Be’lakor, Sorcer Lord on Manticore, Sorcerer Lord, Daemon Prince of Khorne, Gaunt Summoners, shrines and Marauders. There are probably other good units (pending on army comp) but these are the ones that stand out to me. The sub factions are also interesting with ravages, despoilers and cabalists all having something that I can play around with. Yes both the Slaanesh and Tzeentch faction books are on a higher level of competitive play (but they are so compared to almost any other faction) but the StD offers a solid book that definitely can provide builds that can match most armies.

All depends on the environment you are playing in. If people are going tournament/competitive builds then you will really struggle - if everyone uses just models they like then go ahead. Unfortunately if you want to go down the “tournament” route you really need to focus on the more point efficient units (Archeon, marauders, Be’lakor, sorcerer lord, Gaunt summoner, in some lists the Varanguard) and drop the less then stellar ones (pretty much all cultists, chaos warriors, chariots, fomoroid, most of the chosen heroes). Your army will look very good on the table but don’t expect it to have a positive win rate against any of the stronger builds floating around. Essentially - if you hate marauders and don’t want to use conversions then the army is tough to get to a competitive level without maybe going down Archeon/Varanguard route or building very strong synergy around warrior/knight blocks (IMHO).

Have you considered running it (naturally with som minor adjustments for eg battalion) as a Legion of the First Prince? One of my regular opponents have started doing that and we find it to be much more competitive with better summoning, much better attrition (both returning models and harder to kill models) and overall a much more well rounded army on all accounts. Especially since you already include Be’lakor - it seem to be the better option?

There are a lot of possible replacements - pending on your preference, willingness to spend money and hobby skills. For Khorne marauders - lot of choices in the Khorne alliance book. For Nurgle you have Poxwalkers (40k). They really fit the bill but you need extra spruce for weapons/shields and some minor modeling will be required. Mixing them with Cadoor bits from Necromunda really make them stand out. Tzeentch - acolytes are really fitting, once again you need extra bits to be fully WYSIWYG but the models really fit the theme. Slaanesh - I like the models from DoK line (combined with Daemonette parts) - more conversions needed to make them look good with the right weapons but really fitting. Just a couple suggestions.

AH - sorry even forgot that there were other rituals than the +d3 to cast. It is such a force multiplyer that it is a rare occasion that I would rather do something else. As to casting - as said we definitely have other options, but since the gaunt is more or less just 40-60 points he is very hard to not take. I actually find the cabal to be ok - it’s main problem is that if you want magic heavy you will most likely be better of going disciples of Tzeentch.

You can actually build a strong cult army if you want lots of magic - 1-2 Gaunts, Be’lakor, Sorcerer Lord - the blue scribes. Easily 8+ spells a turn with +1-3 to cast. With the addition of endless spells you will really have a strong magic phase. Also - most predatory endless spells clearly state that you are allowed to move them upon summoning.

The wording for units: ”Model fights in units. A unit can have one or more models” The battalion: 1... Nurgle hero 7... Nurgle units. So you must have one hero Nurgle unit and 7 other Nurgle units, that can be heroes as well (up to hero allowance naturally). The wording is actually very clear.

All warscrolls are units - even if they are only consisting of one model. Thus a hero is a unit for all intent and purposes. So you basically must have one unit that is also a hero and the rest can be any units (including individual heroes).

On paper yes - I agree with that but unfortunately I get 40 marauders for the cost of 15 warriors. So even when it comes to holding objectives the marauders will most likely be a better choice most of the time. They loose out to spells damaging per model (sorcerer lord on Manticore, Gaunt etc) but otherwise they are a better screen, anvil and hammer than warriors. Saying that - you can definitely get warriors to work (and they are no terrible choice) but point per point you will most likely always want the marauders. Not to mention - if you need a real anvil then a gaunt summoner with his free horrors will give you 50 wounds for 200 points and 40-60 points extra for a great wizard (240-260 points for the summoner).

Point for point - marauders are superior in almost every way. You can make warriors work but I use them more for fluff/aesthetics than for any real gaming reason.

Just out of curiosity - where in the FAQ (good to know if the argument comes up)?

The rules for covens state that all Tzeentch units in the army gets the keyword (not a choice but automatically) so I would assume yes - although there is no FAQ (as far as I know) that states it 100 percent.

You do realize that you are saying that a list that went 5-1, ended top 10 and that actually did play against top tier armies does not have what it takes to compete at a higher level? The list is really strong and I honestly do not see that it will auto loose to either of the armies you mentioned. Archeon will be close to impossible to take out, the list has very good dispel/unbind potential, a strong magic phase, can hold objectives and has lots of various tools. Keeping your units in synergy range is always a challenge - but that is up to the player/how good he/she is.

The best buff for Archaon is from the sorcerer lord (both the ability and the spell) - one within 12, the other 18 inches. Archeon deploys within 9 of the general and 12 of the sorcerer - then off he goes killing (depending on how far he needs to go to get stuck in Archaon should still be in range of the sorcerer - if the sorcerer runs). The list is brutal - naturally so are a lot of other lists and it will have the same type of bad match ups as other massive point sink armies (e.g. Nagash) has. Very interesting and different.