Gibs

I am in two minds of either buying a whole bunch of the new Slaves to Darkness units or getting to the Orruk Warclans book and some more models. Personally, I think the Ironjaw Brutes are some of the best looking models in the Age of Sigmar range and I really want to build an army around them. The challenge is my gaming group plays semi-competitive lists (serious with some fluffy stuff too). Models I am thinking: Megaboss Mawcrusher Megaboss Orruk Warchanter x2 Orruk Weirdnob Shaman Orruk Brutes x10 Orruk Brutes x10 Orruk Gore Gruntas x3 Orruk Gore Gruntas x3 Just have very little gauge on how viable a list like this is as i don't have all those models currently and haven't played the new book. Might be too character heavy?

Nice! 1) Interpretation of the written rules says you can have mixed weapons 2) Battles in the book have units with mixed weapons 3) The offical app lets you mix weapons in the same unit That is more than enough to go ahead and run mixed weapons in the army. If it gets an FAQ so be it but at this point nothing is hinting it was anything other than intended. Quite frankly, it’s a good change and adds flavour to the army and list building.

This is also how I am reading it and what makes sense in English. That said every unit has the same phrase regarding weapon choices. So either they messed up or they chose the wrong sentence structure and words. For the argument of mixed weapons if you look at the battle pictures in the book. Marauders and knights have mixed weapon. Warriors also have some models not carrying shields. Based on this evidence until it’s gets FAQ’d that these units can’t have mixed weapons I am running what I want. It certainly makes the army building and gameplay more interesting as well.

Is it better to run Brutes in a unit of 5 or a block of 10? Trying to figure out the most optimal way to play with them as the models are gorgeous.

What do you mean by make it work? Undivided is no different to any other mark so unless you are taking a Mark specific battalion then anything goes. Do you mean competitive to the point it’s tournament viable? If so we are a few days in, most ideas are just theory. However, in my limited experience with tournaments I am not seeing anything cheesy that can be done with undivided but it’s early days. Nurgle is the only obvious option that has the smell of cheese about it. Without extensive testing that fact you can basically reflect damage back onto the attacking unit feels strong, especially when you can field pretty resilient units. khorne obviously wants to stack buffs and alpha strike with access to another book of allied units to boot. It has all the ingredients of a powerful list. Outside of running the big man in a hedonites list, at least on first glance there isn’t much overlap between the books tactics due to the power of depravity points and it’s combination with the KoS. The Slannesh mark looks good but does it have any cheese, maybe? I am just not seeing how it begins to rival Hedonites. Undvided, it makes your units a fraction more resilient so what?

Was passing my local store today and noticed a bunch of well painted Brutes in the window. Makes me want to further fresh out my collection. don’t have the new book but how viable are blocks of Brutes in a more elite style army?

Nice! Any chance of the same shot from the rear?

Thinking of testing this list: Despoilers Plaugetouched battalion + friends Be’lakor Chaos Sorcerer Daemon Prince Daemon Prince Chaos Warriors x3 Soul Grinder x2 Haven quite nailed it down any suggestions?

Ruinbringer Warband with Chaos Lord on Karkadrak and Chaos knights (lances) with a bunch of buffs could delete units if you can get the charges you want. Chariots feel a little pricey and the Knights just fair so there isn’t much cheese but it would be an impressive army on the table.

Honestly, I think it will depend on how powerful the list becomes. The fact it’s limited to melee weapons only makes it not universally amazing. If it’s over the top broken then I think they will make it so the ability won’t stack or make it for your combat phase only. However, changes are not necessary on Day 2 and the book as a whole right now just looks ‘fair’ so a little cheese isn’t a bad thing of it means the army can compete at tournaments.

Having now read through the book almost twice now. The one build that is striking me as potentially competitive is: Despoilers + Daemon Prince + Plaugetouched Warband Despoilers because it makes your Deamon Princes and units with the Monster key work more durable. Plaugetouched bacuase anyone hitting your units with melee weapons is taking 1 mortal wound for each attack roll of 6. Plus each hero phase you can inflict D3 mortal wounds to one unit within 1” of one of yours. Daemon Prince gives you the first part of Plaugetouched on a u it but inflicts D3 damage. The Cheesy part is that it does not say this cannot be stacked! (Probably get an FAQ if it’s too cheesy). Thinking.......durable units you can get into melee range combined with Nurgle Daemon Princes. The list isn’t very effective against heavily ranged armies as all the triggers are melee weapons so it’s not universally powerful.

To me the one saving grace of Warriors in this book is that you can mix and match weapons, or at least that is what it sounds like! ”A unit of Chaos Warriors has any number of models, each armed with one of the following options.....” Not sure what the best combination is yet but having a few with shields seems logical. Likewise in a big unit having a few halberds would make sense so you can get every model into combat. there is no question two hand weapons pits out the most damage though.

It’s hard to look passed ensorcelled weapons with the 6 attacks, 3s to hit/wound and -1 rend. Simply because the unit while powerful will eventually get bogged down making Fellspears a potential trap. An army with Varanguard has so few units they need to be good at more than one task. If you model them with swords you can also test the Daemonblades. That said, if you are crazy enough to run a unit of 6 then Fellspears will quite literally wipe anything off the board with all the buffs going around. The fact they have a 2” range makes it feel like this was their intended purpose. I am not disappointed with the Varanguard in this edition. With double circles they must be worth the 100 points. That said I am not up to play with the competitive meta so not really qualified to pass final judgement. The army still has the same problem though at 300 points and unit and the requirement to run the big man for 800 points the list builds itself and it’s hard to hold objectives.

That’s what I thought thanks. assume you can take other units in the army they just don’t benefit from the battalion special rules?

Quick question: in the new book do you have to take exactly what the warscroll battalion states? i.e if it says 1 hero and 6 units is that a limit or a minimum? Also do other characters count as units in addition to being a hero? Haven’t played in awhile and a little out of touch on the list building.

So assuming mix and match is intended what combinations make the most sense for those with access to the numbers?

I really hope this is the case! This would at least make Chaos Warriors a little more interesting and flexible as a unit.

That is annoying need to get the book to study it 30 minutes wasn't enough haha. I am not sure the shields are worth taking on a full unit of warriors then? I don't think you take Marauders in units sizes less than 30 they are basically a barbarian horde so the more you can take the better. Back in fantasy units of 50 Marauders were not an uncommon sight on the table.

That is annoying need to get the book, studying it 30 minutes wasn't enough haha. I am not sure the shields are worth taking on a full unit of warriors then? I don't think you take Marauders in units sizes less than 30 they are basically a barbarian horde so the more you can take the better. Back in fantasy units of 50 Marauders were not an uncommon sight on the table.

I have only had a skim through the book as technically the shop won't let us take it away for another 24 hours. However, was considering running shields in the front and then halberds in the rear. Duel hand weapons looks the most killy, especially with Khorne but is that the roll of another unit? Park a Khorne DP next to a block of warriors near some terrain and they are not easy pickings though. My first impression of the knights were they seemed a little 'meh' for the points, maybe I am being a little harash? They feel like Warriors i.e. a little bit tanky and a little bit killy but they don't really excel in anything. They are a very expensive screening! No question the War-shrine is much improved and will be a great supporting unit for a foot slogging army.

Marauders are looking badass and clearly the chosen infantry in this book! Putting them to one side what are your thoughts on optimizing Chaos Warriors and Knights given we have amazing new models for them?

The mechanics of the Waagh combined with the fact the army is very limited in models makes it a very challenging army to collect and enjoy IMO. The models Ironjawz do have are stunning but it does not take long for the repetitiveness of the army to kick in. Even playing against the army gets boring as not only are the units over costed (basically need 15% more points to make it a game) they follow the exact same game plan pretty much every game. Unless they add a whole new range of Ironjawz models they really need to have a play around with the armies mechanics so you don't feel so restricted playing with or against the army. Its cool that these guys are the elite 'Orc' army and I hope they keep that theme, they just need to make the rules that define the army more flexible.

I actually really like the idea of both Tithe and Depravity it feels right for the different chaos gods. Where depravity has gone wrong i simply in the testing stage, did they even run combat scenarios with units like the Keeper or are they just doing it to sell a tonne of models? My initial thought on testing would be to make make it so that every two wounds lost by Slaanesh heroes generate 1 depravity point. So a Keeper going down would only generate 6 not 13 wounds from damage it sustains. Damage it inflicts would remain the same to reward sounds decision making and tactics. If that wasn't enough I would then make it you cannot bank the remaining depravity after summoning a unit, however that might be a step too far. As it stands now from an 'all comers' perspective depravity is simply game warping which makes the Keeper too good for 360 points and anyone with half a brain is running two of them.

I feel like depravity should reward good decision making more than it does now. Put simply, Slaanesh heroes earn too many depravity points for taking damage. The easiest solution is just to adjust the summoning points costs once the meta stabilizes (assuming it needs tweaking). However, I think the culprit is that its just easy to throw Slaanesh heroes into multi-wound models and win/lose the combat it really does not matter as you are going to be generating an absurd amount of depravity either-way. If you are sending in Keeper you honestly cannot go wrong as they must be close to the best dueling heroes in the game and even if they get sniped its still generating nearly half its points in depravity.

BoK are not the only ones having trouble with our new Slaanesh overlords haha.... Its early days and I am sure the meta will evolve. However, if there was a culprit it feels like depravity is slightly over tuned. Depravity "Each time a friendly SLAANESH HERO inflicts a wound or mortal wound by an attack or spell (and is not negated) on an enemy model, but that model is not slain by that wound you receive 1 depravity point. Also, every time a wound or mortal wound is inflicted on a friendly SLAANESH HERO but that model are not slain by that wound (and is not negated) you receive 1 depravity point. Depending on which host you belong to, you can generate more through other means." If you are playing Slannesh why would you not run as many multi-wound heroes as possible in a competitive list? They not only gain depravity from dealing damage they also get it for basically every wound they lose minus the last one as wound are allocated one at a time. Example: Keeper of Secrets (14 wounds), to summon a Keeper of Secrets (30 depravity) Assumption: you don't have access to abilities that can instantly remove the model without them taking wounds (obviously this is the best case scenario nuff said) Best case scenario Snipe the Keeper from range inflicting 14 wounds before it can get into combat. Depravity = 13 = 43% value Note: this also assume the Slaanesh player does not get a chance to heal any wounds Tie the Keeper up with single wound models. Depravity = wounds lost = 0-13 = 0-43% depravity value (easier said than done as they output a huge number of wounds per turn) Conservative scenario Keeper is going to get into combat against a multiple wound unit and attack first......its very hard to stop this happening with your average army. Even when wounded the Keeper is still going to output some damage before eventually going down: Deals 5 wounds (4 depravity) + wounds taken (13 depravity) = 17 = 57% value In this scenario you are over halfway to summoning a second Keeper and you have only lost one unit and probably inflicted some damage. Then what about the other 3-5 Slaanesh heroes in the board? Not uncommon scenario Keeper charges into a monster, strikes first and murders then before any return attacks (with all the rules and buffs there are not many monsters that want to be fighting a Keeper in combat) 13 wounds (12 depravity) = 40% value Opponent charges in on there turn and between shooting magix and combat the Keeper does not quite go down 10 wounds taken ( 10 depravity) = 33% value In your turn you heal some wounds (up to 7), strike first and only deal 5 damage due to bracketing 6 wounds (3 depravity, as they were only 2 wound models) = 10% value Opponent strikes back and kills the Keeper (6 depravity) = 20% value Total value from depravity 12+10+3+6 = 31 = 103% value Then factor in any passive depravity generation on top of this........ Obviously, every scenario is different but I am coming to grips with is that its not hard for a Slaanesh player to run as many multi-wound hero models as possible and even under less the ideal scenarios still generate enough depravity to summon multiple hero units that then also can generate depravity. I have now had games where 30 depravity points have been generated by the start of my opponents second turn which means a third Keeper is now on the table before I can respond.............if the game had continued he probably could have summoned at least 1-2 more. The counter argument is, why allow the Slaanesh player to generate so much depravity? Well the simple truth is that outside of specific armies and tailoring lists its very very hard to accomplish - you not only have to control the battle against a really agile and fast army you have to finish fights quickly (basically get everything your way and make zero mistakes). Its also not practical to take hordes of single wound models, just in case you are playing against Slannesh..... and even then Slaanesh heroes are still generating great value for losing wounds while outputting extreme levels of damage. Yes, the Slaanesh army might have a low wound count...but that is a false argument as the rate at which they generate depravity actually inflates the wounds available over the course of a battle by an absurd amount.....our group is basically at the point where "if" the Slaanesh player gets a charge with a Keeper on a multi wound unit its game over. By the time you finish the rounds of combat either you just lost the whole unit or so much depravity has been generated that the Keeper basically pays for itself.......its game warping and not everything can or wants to play a full gun-line or has 150+ single wound models. SO back to the above, even though Blood Warriors and Wraithmongers deal damage after death, its not the first hero you have to worry about its the next 2 keepers that get summoned from depravity that break your back. Both those units are multi-wound so they are generating depravity on death also.