Cauthon

Stick those weapons on chaos space marines! Those will look plenty elite.

In Azyr, when you add a unit of chaos warriors to a list, you have the ability to select great blades, halberds AND chaos handweapons. In the same unit, at the same time. So if in the OFFICIAL list building app you can have mixed weapons.. that seems conclusive. Gw are are the kings of copy/paste. IMO if they wanted chaos warriors to not be able to mix weapons like before this army book, they’d have copy pasted their weapons blurb and there would have been no change. They intended for chaos warriors to mix weapons and it is also written that way. Boom!

40k cultists with marauder weapons would look pretty dope.

If I take Be’lakor in a tzeentch army do I get to give him the infusion arcanum spell? Would i be able to give him a spell out of his s2d book if he’s an ally in a disciples list? thanks!

Caspeur I wrote this list with the changes you were talking about. Not sure where i stand with the gaunt summoner with familiars now. Gs w/ familiars- Arch sorcerer glimpse the future, fold reality Tzaangor shammy- fold reality Tzaangor shammy- windthief charm, bolt of tzeentch Tzaangor shammy- bolt of tzeentch Pinks x 10- fold reality Pinks x 10- arcane transformation Pinks x 10- unchecked mutation tzaangors x 20 Enlightened on disc x 6 wildfire taurus balewind vortex Will set up a game with my bud for this week sometime.

It’s a command trait. Your general can choose that as his warlord trait basically.

Well you don’t march the pinks anywhere, or the blues really. I don’t want my enemy to kill the pinks I do it myself. Hit each unit with d6 mortal wounds on my first turn because that’s what the wildfire taurus does, d6 wounds on a unit of 10, d3 mw on a unit with less than 10. So turn one they all take d6 damage, next turn they take d3 unless you battleshock your way back up to 10+ models in each unit Kind of a perfect spell for horror farming really because who cares about pinks striking last? Is handy when you get offensive with it though Have to jump foreword with the shammys to summon the blues as far up the field as you can. Really should be 9” away from enemy’s deployment for maximum effect. Once the enemy takes ground, you don’t get it back (if we just talking about just summoning schenanigans) have to fence them in or just super bubble wrap the objectives. I expect the blues to die where they get summoned. If they can walk up the board next turn cool but I doubt it unless I get a double. It is a good point about averaging 5 MW for gaunt summoner is still pretty dang good. I guess I shouldn’t get hung up on lack of ideal targets when he does just fine on small units. 220 points after the Balewind is not cheap though. So I would enjoy going first most games. Brutalize my pinks, jump up and summon. Hope there isn’t a doubleturn so I can build more blue fence. The enlightened on foot “push” to objectives and then hopefully there is a screen to get behind or some kind of bubble wrap situation, wouldn’t move blues up, hoping to summon them where I need them. Big block of 6 would be my reserves, two small units would head for objectives. For the record. I enjoy giving bolt of tzeentch to two different shamans. One uses his potion one turn to double cast it at a high probability and then next turn the other shaman does so. 4 solid attempts at bolt of tzeentch in two turns and one every turn afterwords seems a very effective way to put out some mortal wounds. Havnt explored which spells are handy for pinks, It would be cool if they could endless spell themselves to death but if I needed them to it would be because there is no hero nearby to do it for them. Idk. Will have to practice.

Hey Caspeur (the frenchy ghost? Jk) thanks for the feed back. I would not go arcane sacrifice. I’d go for the extra spell on my general. So I wouldn’t need something to babysit the pinks. Just need to cast my endless spell on them turn 1 to hit all 3 units with some d6 mortal wound action for aggressive summoning of blues. The other casters you mention all have their uses but I’ve found them to be pretty situational. I’ve had limited use out of the curseling as everybody’s spells nowadays can only be cast by members of their own faction and he has no effect on endless spells. I have not tried the tanky version you mentioned, my previous go to tank was just ogroid with the trecherous bond on some horrors. Gaunt summoner on balewind has been a staple in all my lists but recently I havnt seen any units bigger than 10 strong (super small meta) He is still handy because of his extra spell cast but 3 shamans gets me into my Cabal without having to take a magister. I’m not totally against the magister but he tends to just sit in the back casting glimpse the future all game. Now that it’s only a 20 point difference between shaman and magister, shaman is just SO good. I really enjoy the shamans flask, powerful casting tool. Mobility. Mobility mobility. (For the aggressive summoning of horrors). When I started playing tzeentch I was in love with the 30 block of tzaangors (especially because of the +3 attacks that is now just +1) but I was having logistical problems with them on the board. Chiefly that if they got charged , the unit was to big to get a ton of pile in action and not killy enough to get themselves freed up. The shield bro (honorary command member) is clutch, the run and charge was clutch, but the cost to damage output usually left me wanting, especially because you can’t get a ton of models in the fight at a time. tzaangors are 9 points per wound, enlightened are 11. The deciding factor for me though is I’m using pinks to fill my battline and so don’t “need” tzaangors. Most previously all my lists have had a unit of tzaangors, 10 man chaos warriors and a unit of pinks. I’m trying to step it up as my usual opponent plays Slaanesh and just wow.. Arcane sacrifice is cool for the range booster but it didn’t get me summoning horrors fast enough (top of turn 1) to run proper interference. People may only “fall” for charging a screen in front of enlightened once but if my enlightened are on an objective and I bubble wrap them in blues and brims, what are you going to do? Besides shoot the bajeezus out of them lol. I havnt run run it yet but if you line up 3 units of pinks and run them over with that wildfire Taurus spell, that’s 3d6x2 blue points, hopefully you’re summoning two units of blues turn one. With the wind theif charm on a shaman, he can turbo 28 inches away to summon blues wherever you need speed bumps. When they get bumped. That’s units of brims you get to bubble wrap our stuff with. Hopefully on objectives. Hopefully you can score enough points early, and muck up the board well enough to keep your opponent frustrated for 2-3 turns. You have the wildfire Taurus to turn on the enemy when you need to, giving them asl which depending on situation could “save” your enlightened on foot depending on wether you want the buff or survivability of attacking first. 9enlightened on disc was overkill for me which was sad, they hammered the pants off one thing a turn and had awesome threat range but I think 6 is the magic number. Will have one shaman babysit them for their better attack profile and to be on hand for a fold reality I do enjoy chaos warriors, I’m working on converting a big unit of 20 and then will very much enjoy doing the ferry boat to get them up to midfield objectives after I convert one). In this list though I’d be just straight up relying on summoning, instead of having tough wounds, I have volume of “free” wounds that I don’t care about when they get squashed that I get to deploy aggressively. Not trying to guarantee it will work, have no idea. I just don’t think swapping out my characters or enlightened on foot for tzaangors makes the list any better at what it’s trying to do. Still hoping for more feedback before I buy two more boxes of pinks and 4 boxes of blues (fml). If I were to drop a shaman and the cabal, what would be best to add in to either make the list more balanced or better at what it’s trying to do? I REALLY enjoy getting my destiny dice back though. Thanks guys!!

Care to elaborate? 3 quick wizards to summon blues aggressively turn 1 for board control and objectives. The enlightened on disc to go be problem solvers, try and get a fold reality in. Enlightened on foot because value. It’s to bad they can’t run and charge but they just need to play objectives while your blues work interference for a couple turns. All of my games seem to be over be end of turn two or that second initiative roll at the latest. I wanted to see about a list that could play late game objectives. Dont doubt that the list might not “work“ but would like to hear why. Thanks!!

I’m glad changhost is back to working out for you guys again. What do you guys think of a3 shammy Cabal with horror farm backed by enlightened? Im pretty pumped enlightened on foot didn’t go up and amazed at how much of our stuff got cheaper! MuchoEnlightened%20.pdf

Hmmn. It says you can shoot star fated arrow “in any of your hero phases” doesn’t say one time only but doesn’t explicitly say it gets around the once per game restriction from dudes warscroll. Anybody know 100%? Pretty huge difference.

Ok so prosecutors arnt battline at all. I cant quite squeeze a strikeforce into 2k. The way I want it anyway. So with a khemist, a navigator and Venator. Obligatory arkos. The minimum strike force with one max unit of skywardens. By my count I have 150 points left and I need that to get to 200 for a frigate to hide in. I feel the khemist is necessary to get the most out of getting a unit to shoot twice a turn (while under his buff) i feel the navigator is necessary because I’ll be darned before I take a battalion and not have a character to put the second relic on Need something else to get cheaper. Also I’d prefer the max unit to be endrinriggers but points. If I couldn’t get it to work I guess I’d have to try it without the frigate. I’d have no idea how to play kharadron or make a list without at least one boat (gunhauler doesn’t count). Don’t think I’d want to really. I guess I’d go full sell out and ally in some more ranged stormcast with that 150 points, just for the sake of finishing a list. A balista and maxing out my endrinriggers instead of skywardens puts me 10 points over I believe.

Thanks for the correction. I’ll ask my bud how he’s been using it. We don’t get a ton of games.

Requizen I think you might be underselling the slaaneshi ability to play the activation wars. My regular opponent plays Slaanesh. That book seems to really support a hero heavy play style and it’s any hero, and the end of any charge phase, that hands out always strikes last. Keeper of secrets on a 2+, everything else on a 4++. If you have three units near a keeper of secrets, he gets 3 rolls to try and make everything ASL. Just shoot out the keeper yeah but my bud runs 2 and by the time I’ve killed one he’s always pumped to summon it right back in. Anyway my point was that if he is scared of a unit he can just about guarantee an ASL on it. Slaanesh is stupid good to me so there’s that but that’s another convo. If someone thinks always strikes last invalidates endrinriggers melee, better have a different list ready if you might be playing against Slaanesh. Does nobody like the aetherstrike force? I know it isn’t so much fun to have to rely on other factions but it’s seems pretty powerful to me (if that’s what your into). Just being able to shoot a star fated arrow every turn is super amazing to me. Then getting +1 to hit whatever you shot at for the rest of the game is pretty sweet. Getting to shoot with a unit in the hero phase? Pretty badass! Max unit of endrinriggers with a khemist buff shooting in hero phase AND shooting phase seems great to me. 3 units of prosecutors is a small chunk of points but isnt exactly a tax. Would they count as your battline? If so that’s a done deal to me.

Hey Buddy thanks for the response. I I think you missed a couple of my points and positions though. I never asked for them to be top tier through points changes. I don’t even care if we are a top tier army. I would like to be CASUALLY competitive. My point was that you arnt going to get there with reasonable points changes. I don’t think the frigate needs to cost 140 and didn’t say it should. I was referencing someone else’s post (didn’t quote, sorry) where they said that’s how cheap some of our things would need to be to take our whole army from pretty dang bad to pretty good. (Not fantastic) Sure it’s nice to be able to transport 4” move units, but what are you trying to move up the board? We are a mobile shooting army. The endrinriggers are fast enough, they can enjoy hiding in one but that can’t last long as they are our main damage dealers and if they are in the boat, they arnt doing much. Thunderers don’t have the firepower to clear units off objectives anymore and they also don’t want to be off the board for very long at all either. I absolutley think it’s worth taking a frigate for clown car deepstrike, that’s it. Try to go second, drop it in, unload all your endrinriggers, see how much damage you can do, see if you get the double turn, shake hands Its not that frigates should cost 140 it’s that the mechanics of the army in general are so bad, you can’t make things cheap enough to make up for it, without making things stupid cheap. How many points do stormcast need to spend for their deepstrike mechanic? Again NOT to be top tier, talking casual competitive. I didnt say we didnt have an amazing melee unit, I said we didn’t have a melee unit you want to embark on a ship to go roll up to an objective with, a dwarf warrior equivalent or something. Heck stick a buckler on an arkanaut. Or at least cheap wounds... or some kind of second option! Endrinriggers ARE an amazing unit. They are so amazing they absolutely outshine every other unit in our books hands down unless you want to spend 600+ points (previously) on a single battle line unit and babysitter. My only complaint is that 20 points per wound is quite a lot for a 5+ save. I think your accidentally proving my point for me about the thunderers. They went from most deadly, most versatile, elite, shooting unit in the game to, your going to compare them to judicators???This isn’t a battline unit for us, supposed to be the cream of our crop. Thunderers are supposed to be our vanguard raptors, compare our arkanaughts to the judicators.. My point about the skywardens was just that, no matter how cheap you make the unit, some of it’s mechanics just flat don’t work in a reasonable way. You don’t have to compare them to buffed riggers either, the chain cutlasses are just flat out better and the skymine doesn’t make up for anything. 2” range is cool I guess but how often do you fight in two ranks? I have no no idea why you think i play a melee kharadron army. I only ever have one full unit of endrinriggers for melee, maybe a unit of arkos will have pikes if I don’t want to over proxy. I definitely don’t think kharadron are supposed to be a melee army. I think we are supposed to be a ranged army. It just that after all of our ranged damage profiles went from flat damage 3 to damage d3, our best weapon is now the chain cutlas. Best target for the Khemist’s buff hands down to me but I’ve never been willing to have more than the minimum number of arkanaughts. I DO love the models, have since they were leaked at whatever con and was all in when they dropped. They were GOOD then, not GREAT, they were good, and fun. They had a COUPLE of powerful (risky) combos and then shortly after release were NERFED INTO THE GROUND. Not by points increases (although some of those) but because they dicked with our mechanics. Wether you like using thunderers today or not, the unit doesn’t even vaguely resemble what TACTICS you could get out of them. Them being maybe as good as judicators (#eyeroll) doesn’t make up for us losing one of only two money making units in our whole book. Can’t I love the models and just want the army to be decent? Couldn’t the ships work just a little bit better without me “playing for the win as the core of my fun” Its a game, ppl do TRY to win, that’s not all that’s important but I’ve never sat down to a game of anything and said boy I hope I get my teeth kicked in again! I bet next time I’ll hit ALL my 4+ cannon shots instead of none of them! I bet I’ll roll average on my damage for the first time ever too!! I don’t mean to be negative on the kharadron, Im very excited to give them another few spins and see how they fare. Im just not going to be surprised when the same issues still make them just not very fun to play. im honestly happy you’re enjoying playing with KO. If you enjoy being the underdog, up hill battle and whatnot, will you enjoy the army if/when we get our mechanics fixed and are a mid tier army ( or better)? Keep a weather eye!!

The riggers are an amazing unit. I have a 12 man melee unit and a 12 man shooting unit. The problem with them is they are 20 points a wound and not all that tough. The max unit of arkonaughts with skyhooks and a khemist can do pretty good damage but that’s a dang lot of points and you still need to finish filling out your battle line. Id rather use khemist to buff the drill cannons in my maxed unit of ranged endrinriggers. Of course the ships arnt the main source of damage, but what are they really good for besides clown car deepstrike? charge blockers? 200 points is cheap but how exactly is it making its points back? (Besides clown car) i wish strolling up to an objective with a load of arkonaughts was a viable strategy but that’s a lot of points to get 10 wounds of 5+ on a hopefully uncontested objective. So if the ships not really good at shooting, and it’s not really worth it to transport anything besides endrinriggers, what’s really the point? If your answer to why kharadron arnt that bad is because you can take a max block of arkonaughts so you can double 12 skyhook shots and endrinriggers are good too... i dont think that’s a good argument to prove our mechanics arnt busted.

Ahoy! Doing the obligatory check in with a new gh coming out. My skydorfs have been firmly shelfed but I’d love reasons to feel like they can be at least casually competitive. I just dont see it getting done with points decreases. Not modest ones like we are getting. How cheap does our stuff need to get over the hurdles of; 1. Being a shooting army that is just not good at shooting. (Give me back damage 3 pls) 1B. They totally ruined the Thunderer’s warscroll. Used to be our main unit of offensive output that you built lists around and now it’s just a mess. Used to be a super diverse unit that opened up tactical options. I feel they should have made the rifles wound on 3+ after they decided you couldn’t take all of whichever gun you actually wanted after they said you could / caugh, anyway.. 2. Ships just arnt that useful. Shooting is very lackluster, super swingy and not even good on the average. 2B. You can transport units but the only unit we have worth using is the endrinrigger and if you’re embarked, you arnt getting any use out of the endrinriggers offense. 2C. Same with any of our hero’s abilities. It’s pretty cool you can spec anti magic but having to have your navigator be on the ground to be able to make his magic happen, it makes it tough when it should be thematic and awesome. 3. No endless spells, even the generic ones. No magic at all, or even a prayer system to make up for it. 3B. You can spec your whole army into shutting down magic, you might get pretty good at it but there is what I believe is called opportunity cost, where you lose your re-rolls or your ability to deep strike from not taking the rules you would otherwise choose. So even if you DO go anti magic, spend all the points, opportunity cost, boots on the ground, you don’t get a single bit of offense out of it. You can HOPEFULLY stop something. If you go anti magic with any other army, odds are youre at least getting casters (wizards or priests)out of it at the same time. So yeah, 140 points for a frigate does sound rediculous, but that is the only type of points decreases that would move the needle imo to make us even just casually competitive. Do these minor points decreases really mean much? Say you can buy an extra frigate now, it still only hits on a4+ and you better roll hot on your damage d6! We still don’t have a badass melee unit to transport (pls don’t say arkonaughts) with the boat in the first place. The problem isn’t cost, it’s mehanics. Skywardens are cheaper but they are straight garbage compared to endrinriggers. Even if they were 60 points for 3 dudes, is it going to make their air mine thing hit on anything better than a 6? So it’s garbage even at a cheap price until we get a new book with fixed mechanics. I would LOVE to be wrong but I think it’s pretty obvious we need an actual new book or they need to seriously rethink some of these faq nerfs. Those garrison rules are legit, something like that could go like 90% of the way to fixing Kharadron, that and maybe endless “spells” and a prayer system ala Khorne. Boom, solid army, in theory. You just don’t get there with modest points reductions Hope you guys can make it work!! Would love to hear how wrong I am!! Sorry for anything misremembered.

If you use Skyfires as a gun line unit yeah you’ll prolly be disappointed with their damage output (except when you accidentally roll 3 6’s). I think theg they bring a lot more utility to the table than that and imo utility is the name of the game for DoT. Having such great movement and sneaky good melee is a lot more useful later in the game than 40 Gors imo. Cool you ambushed and shot something and maybe disrupted a unit for a turn while it turned around to smear you. You might have done more wounds in that one volley than a similar sized unit of skyfires would do, but if your skyfires are playing the ranged game (24” range is bananas good) you’re potentially getting 3-5 full volleys out of your skyfires. Charecters need to keep a close eye on skyfires, they can disregard short range shooting. If if you get a bit of value out of their manouverability and their surprisingly decent melee, 16 and change points per wound is a pretty good price imo. Skyfires are pretty leathal in melee in mid to late game I’ve found. More than capable of punking a hero off an objective late. Especially when they don’t think you can/will.

That’s true but your gaining a pretty significant defensive advantage in doing so. There’s not a ton of things out there that will be able to strike back over your screen. Not having to worry about losing models before striking means you can comfortably wait for guided by the past to kick in. It is a little less palatable when your on the disc, giving up that attack profile, you do gain two advantages though so it’s going to be the right move sometimes , at least.

Well enlightened have a 2 inch reach so you don’t have to “limit pile in” you can just stand right behind a screen and fight over the top. I’m excited to try it with tzaangors in a tzaangor coven.

saw the new warscrolls just needed the points, guess I’ll invest in azyr. So is it just a matter of time before DoT can ally with beasts, faq style? Or maybe not until the next handbook?

Is there an errata on the points cost adjustment for our tzaangor stuff online somewhere? Or is it only in the BoC unit list?

Heya. Is is it confirmed that the only beasts with marks are whole battalions at a time? Thanks!

The only one additional attack on unit of tzaangors no matter the size is a pretty brutal nerf but honestly it’ll make it a lot easier to make more diverse lists now as a max unit is no longer an auto include. That and the price drop and buff of the Tzaangor enlightened on foot will actually make it feasible to field a Tzaangor coven in a 2k list, 100 points for a 9 wound elite unit? Yes pls! With the new beasts keywords and rules in addition to the power tweaks I think tzeentch lists are about to get super diverse, which is just fine by me.

Honestly this gives me some hope for a high elf AoS comeback. The high elf range was much more popular and modern than the old Beastmen. Prettier and better selling fo sho. It’s unfathomable that they are in such sorry shape as it is keyword wise but if the Beastmen line was redeemable to g-dub than I have to believe that highelfs can/will be brought back either in the same fashion as Beastmen with just rules reworked or similar to how dark elf’s got revamped to DoK with just a new boss/god and maybe a couple newer elite unit (spears and archers getting scrapped hard.) On a separate, more on topic note? very very excited that Beastmen are getting Marks. Pumped to see what kinda shenanigans/ modern options I can use in my Tzeentch army. At a minimum I could really use some fast cheap outflankers, even if they have to hoof it (lol). Also an affordable beat stick would be nice for those pesky scenarios where only hero’s can claim objectives. Ogroid can only do so much! If there is some easily acquired synergy to make my max unit of tzaangors perform some new tricks, bobs your uncle.