Scurvydog

It was just to back up with data that the Seraphon player is not just winning all the time because of an insanely overpowered army as a previous poster seemed to think as well. He does have a favorable matchup against khorne, but I pointed that out in my post as well. This is also why I asked for more information on what kind of list the seraphon player usually ran, including battalions as most of the Seraphon strongest power lies in the battalions currently. While the sentiment here is true, it also needs to be a fun game for everyone, and 1 side getting steamrolled week after week is not that interesting, being apathetic about it does not make for a more fun game in this scenario. First try to learn as much about your opponent as possible, a lot of people expect to show up with their shinies and just win, without even knowing a single rule from your opponents army, that is simply not how wargaming or any kind of warfare works. Try to remember important rules and warscrolls or at least keep the app open and reference them. Use rulers regularly, ideally have your own so you can take some measurements while the opponent moves etc to not slow down the game. If you know where things are and how long threatening range they have, you will do much better. To do list: 1. Know your opponents army as well as your own. Read the warscrolls (in the app, the book ones are outdated), read the battalions and the GHB19 rules for Seraphon. 2. Measure as much as possible, know when to move as far as possible, know when to stay back, know where to cover ground and deny his teleports, as he needs to be 9" away from any of your units. 3. Play the objective game. The seraphon will exploit an overly aggressive player who leaves little to no defense on objectives and run in circles around you. I can't stress enough how important especially point 1 is, you will do miles better when you can recall rules and warscrolls when taking decisions and moveming your models, dont stand 25" away from the bastilladon turn 1, it can move 5 and shoot 20, make sure to at least force him to use a teleport on it for example. Do not give anything for free like that.

This is the data on win rates as it stands right now. Some armies got more data than others (some being new as well) but the data for older armies form a rather clear picture. Now I am not trying to say your games against each other should work at this level, but what I am trying to illustrate is that Seraphon is a bottom of the barrel army and is also an army requiring quite a bit of skill. Chances are buying new armies will not fix the problem, as he can't really chose anything that performs a lot worse, while he can definitely chose something far more dangerous. This is why, for starters, trying to switch armies might highlight some pointers for you. Bias can become extreme in wargaming, especially on a losing streak, so taking a step back and change perspective will probably be more constructive than just buying new stuff. Seraphon do get bonuses specifically against chaos demons though, and those types of rules, while fluffy are just plain bad for game balance, so your particular matchup is not in your favor when playing demon khorne. But if you really just want to win more easily you could get a FeC army for example, they are very effective against seraphon, as are deepkin, they can be resilient and fast and shut down a lot of tricks.

Shooting and mortal wounds does absoutely wreck them, which is a stable for expensive units per wound, every single mortal wound hurts a lot and healing output is extremely limited for a death army. Faction terrain is completely fine in theory. It is the extension of allegiance abilities and should not be considered a "unit". The talk about the Fyreslayer forge being terrible and the nexus insane next to it makes no sense at all, how is the pizza oven giving +cast to prayers bad and can even be used to give mystic shield army wide for a turn, that is not insignificant. The Nexus I agree is odd, it looks cool, but takes a lot of space, is set up before sides are chosen and other terrain is placed, so will usually just be put right in the middle. It does not make a lot of sense and while the effects can be potent, it is also very unreliable and not something to plan any strategy around, making it feel sort of pointless, yet a nice bonus for the OB player but plain annoying for the opponent. It feels cooler in the battletome battleplan where the OB player needs to defend it against attacks, but in the normal scenarios it is just sort of there.

Are people on crazy pills, Seraphon are performing poorly on the competetive scene. They have tricks but very meager hitting power. Without knowing more about his list it is harder to comment, but for example the average base damage output of a 280 point bastilladon shooting vs a 4+ save is 3,5 damage, which is pitiful and only slightly better specifically against daemons due to +1 damage. The flesh hounds and Karanak should help by getting out there asap, most likely the seraphon player will have few fighty units out there. If he is using both a carnosaur and a troglodon he is already soft balling you somewhat, as both of these are very lackluster, the carnosaur being the most pitiful hero monster in the game for the points, on average a carnosaur does 1/3 of the damage of a mangler squig for example. Threaten his Slann, by spreading out and aiming surgical strikes at it, remember the retricies can both fail and also possible heal as little as 1 and excess damage carries over, so if you do 10 dmg and he heals 3, he is still dead. Use slaughterpriests and judgements to make life a pain for him. Teleporting also takes place in the hero phase while summoning is the end of movement phase. He can only summon near the slann or astrolith bearer, meaning he can not teleport a summoned unit before the turn after. I have a hard time getting over a sentence with Troglodons and tearing through units with shooting is mentioned... It sounds like this guy would absolutely destroy you if he really put his mind to it, so perhaps switch armies? see how he pilots your stuff and get ideas? It will also be frustrating from his perspective, contrary to what one might think, winning all the time, even when soft balling and getting complaints, frowns and as you mention ruining the enthusiasm for the game is terrible. I hope you manage to help each other avoid that.

Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes- Mawtribe: BoulderheadFrostlord on Stonehorn (400)- GeneralFrostlord on Stonehorn (400)Frostlord on Stonehorn (400)Huskard on Thundertusk (340)- ChaintrapHuskard on Thundertusk (340)- Chaintrap2 x Mournfang Pack (140)- Gargant Hackers2 x Mournfang Pack (140)- Gargant Hackers2 x Mournfang Pack (140)- Gargant Hackers2 x Mournfang Pack (140)- Gargant HackersTotal: 2440 / 2500Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 500Wounds: 111 Very weak against magic, but will dish out a lot of mortal wounds. 2 huskards on tusks is for +1 to prayers as well as to only be using the best mount traits. Boulderhead tribe gets mount traits for all monsters, +1 wound on all monsters and can fight at full profile for 1 CP, so yea, great for monsters. Having 15" move and mortal wounds on charges will also give some good advantages vs opposing behemoths. A stonehorn with Metal Cruncher outright does d6 mortal wounds at the start of the combat phase to a unit with a 4+ save or better, that is scary, especially if they already got charged for impact hit mortal wounds. All beastclaw behemoths also counting for 10 models will probably win you games more than anything in this special tournament.

It seems you misunderstood his post. He made a joke which was more a jab at this entire thread than your post, looking at the reactions to his post, clearly a lot of people found that funny as well. His point was jokingly saying that someone commenting on an armys performance based on at least some kind of playing experience is still far better than creating a topic with a hyperbolic title based on no data or experiences at all, which as has been proven will achieve little less than being an echo chamber for complaining about the "new thing". Anyway next month we can close this thread and move on to "Slaves to Darkness, hideously overpowered?", as the longbeards shift focus to grumble about the next new thing some people might be excited about. "Command Points!? Bah! back in my day we had to pretend to twirl our mustaches to rerolls and talk to our imaginary horse!" "Things were better when terrain was homemade and did nothing, as good terrain should" "Made up things before 1990 are the only decent made up things #not my make-believe"

The oxide can be used from the pot on any ghostly part, in fact I'd recommend doing that and then a drybrush/highlight, if you want a tinge to it, you can mix something into that highlight like green for example with some hexwraith flame or any other green paint really. For weathering you can use oxide, but you might want to mix it with some medium, 50/50 if on top of a metallic I think. If you are going for a more ancient and worn look you can use typhus corrosion first which adds texture as well, and then use the oxide mix, which will then dig into the texture and improve the effect as a fast and efficient method.

Well these models take really well to contrast paints. I am "just" using skeleton horde as my base and love using it, as well as wyldwood/snakebite/gore grunta fur, to quickly do leather straps, weapon handles, shield wood and also claws, fangs and "darker bone". I am doing it lower than needed, just to drybrush and highlight a bit more and also doing the armor plates in regular paint. I use Nihilak Oxide a lot as well, and it is an efficient way to ghostly look, especially with a drybrush on top to lighten it up a bit after a heavy coat, you can even add some blue or green to the mix with some white for this drybrush/hightlight. For a stone look Basilicanum grey looks quite good I think and a forgiving color to work with and give a drybrush finish if you want. You could go for the petrifex scheme quite easily from there, with reds and blacks which cover easily. I guess the short of it is to use contrast paints if you want to get these guy done quicker, they take to it really well and wraithbone base works really great with both contrast and regular paint, including nihilak oxide for ghostly effects.

And then everyone will use kavalos instead... Mortek Guard are not a problem. The specific combo of petrifex and mortek guard is what all this complaining here is about. Petrifex should just be reduce rend by 1 or keep the +1 save but only for models with 4+ wounds to fit their fluff. The command ability with +1 rend in melee should instead be something defensive, so 1 legion is not best but in defense and offense.

People talking like a 10 wound harvester is the most difficult thing to kill ever. The harvester only brings back models back if things die right next to it and a smart opponent then just focus the harvester. This happened in my last few games, it never made it to the end of the game, for example against a group of trolls, it got picked out by 3 rockgut while standing next to a mortek guard unit, they took it down in 1 go, while the Troggoth boss ate the mortek guard hekatos, auch! The only thing which is very very (maybe too) strong about this army is petrifex legion alone. If not for that legion, this the OBR is a mid tier army and upper mid tier with Katakros + Praetorian legion. The big problem with Petrifex is not the +1 save alone, as this makes mortek guard incredible (but other armies have incredible units as well) but it makes many other units just worth their points, like morghasts and the harvester, which just rolls over dead without more defense. The real kicker is the command ability for +1 rend, it is when you combine especially mortek guard with the +1 save AND +1 rend it gets crazy and probably too good. I can only hope for some errata down the road rebalancing the legions, but it does not seem GW wants to mess with that much, just look at DoK and Hag Narr temple for example. Without +1 save Mortek Guard already fall by the wayside compared to other tough and killy infantry and without access to +1 rend their offensive output is also very average for their price tag (which is fine for a defensive army).

For sure you can. The mortek guard are popular and rightly so and it would be a good idea to bring some, but just going with 3x20 is not needed to play this army. This is just an example but for a heavy cavalry force with powerful magic as well could look like this: Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers- Legion: Petrifex EliteLiege-Kavalos (200)- General- Trait: Mighty Archaeossian- Artefact: Helm of the OrdainedArkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (360)Mortisan Soulmason (140)- Artefact: Godbone Armour- Lore of Mortisans: Arcane Command10 x Kavalos Deathriders (360)- Nadirite Blade and Shield10 x Kavalos Deathriders (360)- Nadirite Blade and Shield20 x Mortek Guard (260)- Nadirite Blade and Shield3 x Necropolis Stalkers (200)Kavalos Lance (120)Total: 2000 / 2000 I am in doubt about the Soulmason vs Boneshaper, as both are good, this is just to get magic superiority, as the soulmason will most likely be able to hand out a lot of reroll 1s to hit, so you will often do 6 spells per turn. Arkhan being at +2 to cast and unbind is also very powerful and people seem to underestimate the magic defense he brings. The list only generated 5 discipline points by default and has few units, which is why I chose arcane command for the soulmason to possibly provide a few more points. This is because you really want to be using Petrifex +1 rend as much as possible! 10 Kavalos possibly moving 15" and charging in with their 10 dice for 5+ mortal wounds and a 6" pile in is scary, even more so if the riders got rend 2 and horsies rend 1. Add the Liege and his helm for +1 to hit and possiblt reroll 1 to hit from the soulmason and things look scary! 20 Mortek is always solid, so kept a unit of that and Stalkers pack a nasty punch and can advance behind the kavalos or mortek for a hefty counter punch as needed. Some setups might be slightly more optimal than others, but something like this is definately playable and you can switch stuff around to match your favourite models.

GW was well ahead of the times with wonderfully diverse models like this: Forgeworld also supports the strong and independant woman: That is a joke btw, but GW saw an opening in recent years with Stormcasts and have been pushing more diverse models a lot. But it does become sort of silly pushing all these real world diversity themes into this fantasy world, as the concept of genders and cultures and races are entirely based on that particular fantasy setting. There are no "female" orcs, they are refered to as male and has no traditional female features as we know them from humans, but they reproduce as fungus, who knows, it makes no sense to force ****** on them when they are not mammals, even if they do have nipples which does not make any sense either. How about humanoids? Do we really need more asian looking dwarfs? Is it only for human factions we need this? Are we at a place where all races need to reflect features taken from real world human race types? Like ginger chaos dwarfs? Fyreslayers with asian features? Is it important to push for African features on deepkin models? Do we adhere to the fantasy setting or do we push for 100% diversity in everything? Personally I enjoy diversity in forms that make sense for the setting and feels relevant and fitting for the world. Sylvaneth is well handled in that regard, they are spirits but do possess male and female traits and everything just fits together nicely. There is however no clear emphasis to push that this and that spirit looks a bit more asian, caucasian or african etc than another, Allarielle might as well have african features, although she is after all based on an existing character from the old high elves, so changing that just for the sake of changing serves no real purpose. We also have DoK with only warlocks as sort of male slaves in that faction, they also have Morathi as another beautiful centerpice model created for AoS as well as Allarielle. There are many more examples, AoS has just in a few years alreayd introduced a lot more diversity, especially in regard to male and female models, whereever it makes any sense to do. Also Slaanesh and especially the KoS is already is the most 2019 thing you can find anywhere. GW will most likely keep going in this direction, so I would not worry too much, as they seem very much aware and have done a lot in just a few years. I suspect it will not be an issue in a couple of years when my daughter is old enough to get addicted to plastic crack, if I can manage that feat

Well he did say time poor, so I guess it was more what to get first and paint up to use as much as possible.. Feast of Bones is poor value if not interested in Ogors, mostly because there will be veeery few reasons to ever bring more than 2 units of morghasts (barely even 1). The only thing Katakros does more for the Praetorians is +1 save, Petrifex already just get that anyway and does not depend on a 18/36" bubble, if your opponent focuses some wounds of Katakros he can quickly lose his big bubble radious. You are already +1 to hit, so most units are at 2+ to hit, making reroll to hit against charging units only rather worthless compared to a unniversal +1 rend which can be used in any combat. This allows especially your Kavalos and Mortek to hit MUCH harder. With Katakros as general the trait does not matter, but the artifact is a -3 rend weapon for Praetorians... who will use this blade? With Katakros you will most likely want wizards and not a Liege. Petrifex just get an ignore wound artifact, which is always decent. So even if we assume both legions always get +1 save for everyone (which in many cases they will not when katakros gets wounded), then we are left with praetorians getting reroll to hit against chargers CP and a useless blade artifact and -1 bravery aura. Petrifex gets +1 rend in any combat of choice and a good all around artifact. The most important thing is the rend command, when you really get to play with it, you will love it endlessly, especially considering reroll to hit is worthless at 2+ hit already and Soulmasons can dish out reroll 1 to hit spells easily too.

Traits: Not important as you will be taking a legion, but maybe in a 1k game there would be a case for choosing trait and relic. If so then trait 1. Ancient Knowledge to get 1 more discipline point per round, or 3. Dark Acolyte to become a wizard (for a liege). Artefacts: My number 1 choice is Helm of the Ordanied for a Liege Kavalos, this gives 12" +1 hit bubble which is crazy good. For the wizards it is a bit more so so, but I'd say the soulmason 9" +1 wound bubble is decent as well as +2 to cast until you get a natural 10+ cast roll. Shoutout to the Soulreapers luminscythe as well, which is both a -1 to be hit on the bearer as well as +1 cast, this is the only unconditional + to cast we got. Spells: I wont say anything is just "best", but I do feel that both of the reinforcement spells are more nice to haves and situational, especially the shield one as it only gives a 5+ against mortal wounds. I will say that drain vitality is an incredibly nice buff, and if I had to only chose 1 per game, that would probably be my go to spell, as it counters some of the mot dangerous mechanics, which is exploding hits (look at the Slaanesh players face when he has to reroll his keepers 2 6's for claw hits and rejoice), and also mortal wound reflects on 6's to save. Protection of Nagash is a very cool spell for Nagash and Arkhan, but not really anything else I think. Legions: This should be clear by now right? Petrifex is waaayyyy above everything else, it has the best of everything. Praetorians and Ivory host are pointless and terrible. Stalliarch lords, null myriad and crematorium are pretty equal in different niches, decent and probably more in line with what legions should be, but they are all completely outdone by petrifex. Endless spells: If you buy the box you get all 3 anyway, but with the few sources of + to cast and the -1 penalty with an endless spell in place, I prefer the screamer, with only 5+ to cast and a 12" +1 to hit bubble. The predator is cool, but really annoying to use at the right time, it has extreme short range to cast (wholly within 6") and moves random (2d6), you will probably not get many good situations to use this in, and when you do, it is very unreliable to even cast. Units: If you are on a budget and looking for an all comers list to start with, I would focus on Mortek Guard and some Kavalos. Something like a Liege Kavalos, Mortisan Soulmason, a box of Mortek guard and a box of Kavalos as the core is a good purchase, add a box of stalkers or a harvester for a nice little 1k force to play vanguard games or meeting engagements. After that add more Mortek guard and possibly Kavalos, a Boneshaper and either stalkers or harvester depending on what you already got.

Played another game against my friend playing Sylvaneth in a 2k game. He played an allarielle, durthu, treelord ancient list, while I used basically what I had in my collection: liege, mortisan, boneshaper, 20 and 10 mortek guard, 2x5 kavalos, harvester, morghast achai, stalkers, deathrider battalion and predator spell. We played battle for the pass and my opponent went first. He got to place a lot of woods, playing a short end to short end deployment was of great benefit to him in that regard. It was a pretty bloody game, with bitter fights to take the top and bottom center objectives. Unfortunately for me, his woods gave him great board presence, while all but my riders were relatively slow and had a hard time getting out to the objectives in force. I had to dedicate my riders to cap the bottom to not get too far behind, and they managed to kill a stray arch revenant who flew there to cap, but in turn perhaps overextended in doing so. The same kavalos got obliterated in his turn 2, by kurnoth, treelord andcient and allarielle all in 1 fight (ultra overkill). At the top my liege, morghasts and harvester tried going after durthu, this went terribly wrong and due to woods and terrain they had a hard time going anywhere. In the end Durthu managed to kill both my Liege, Morghasts and Harvester after battle round 2. I managed to pull of a draw, mainly due to a 11" charge roll from my 20 man mortek guard, getting deep into his lines and piling in near his backline objective, while my 10 mortek supported by the boneshaper held my own backline for 3 turns against a unit of kurnoth hunters summoned by allarielle (Both units never killed each other, ending with 7 mortek and 2 hunters...). My opponent who has played and gotten destroyed by the new orruk warclans a couple of times as well as my Seraphon said his impressions of the army was that it was strong but also rather fair. I had nothing that completely locked anything down, so he was free to use his own strengths and tactics, which made for a fun game. My own takeaways: Do not count on a 2+ armor save Liege in cover to make his 3+ saves against Durthu, 2 failed saves still result in 12 damage Losing the Liege early on hurt my DP generation, and my mortisan never once managed to get of the d3 point spell. You really feel the loss, especially in a game where you need the +3" move on many things for a chance to keep up. The harvester never even got to swing once, but 200 points for 10 wounds is still squishy, even as Petrifex and very difficult to have within 3" of anything dying. Being forced to move it away from mortek to reinforce a failing flank did it no favors to show its strengths though. These strict range limitations and relatively low move makes it tricky to use and will take some practice. The morghasts whiffed as usual, they should not be that bad, but somehow always ends up disappointing... If I did not like their models so much, I would probably not use them much at all. Flying is still nice to have though and gives them a few options nobody else but Arkhan has in the army. Mortek Guards and Kavalos are just great units and rarely disappoint, the high move of the kavalos feels invaluable especially in some battleplans and I would never go completely without them I think, as they are the only options to get deep into enemy territory before turn 3-ish and threaten backline objectives etc. I never managed to cast the predator, always failing or getting unbound, I did manage to get some Drain Vitality of on Durthu, which was good, but did not save the entire flank from him anyway. I really like the spell though and possibly the best one we have to deal with similar threats. Remember the free battalion abilities, I managed to forget the entire game, doh. For petrifex every point counts, you can always make use of that +1 rend command! Facing an army with lots of mortal wounds and rend 2 made even the Petrifex fall relatively quickly. I am sure I would have been beaten as anything but Petrifex in that matchup, as my backline mortek would have crumbled to the Kurnoth with Scythes if reduced to 6+ saves. I have a hard time seeing the reapers work at a high level as anything but, if you face armies with decently high rend especially. (This is why I believe though should have reduced rend by 1 instead of +3 save, to balance the legion between high and low rend army matchups).

It could be some for beasts of chaos, but otherwise it looks too crude to be chaos. The rope and skulls is what throws me for a loop, as it does look like it is intended to primarily be at the angle shown, becuase it looks like an improvised giant club otherwise. It could be some ballast to something, but the spikes facing down (again assumed because of the skulls angle) does not make much sense, although destruction is not prone to making all that much sense, but still...

I agree the internal balance is not very good. Petrifex makes the army strong, while I think most other legions are too weak. I feel Praetorians with Katakros in, will probably be the more balanced setup, but petrifex just steps on that by also having the superior forced artifacts and especially command ability. If you already get +1 hit from katakros, rerolling hits vs chargers i far worse than getting +1 rend, that CP is so universally good. Switch the command abilities of Mortis Praetorians and Petrifex and the balance gap would have been far closer, and at least we would probably see Katakros in his own legion on the table. The army is relatively squishy as a whole without +1 save, every wound is super expensive and removing a 200 point harvester with 10 wounds and 4+ save is not harder than a unit of 5 liberators, which is why that save makes a huge difference. This by itself hurts the other legions badly, but there could have easily been far more balance. Ivory host should have been +1 to wound instead of hit, there are so many other +1 hit sources already and they should make Morghasts, stalkers and immortis battleline, just for laughs and kicks. Stalliarch lords are decent, but has no reason to have so poor artifacts and traits, improve that and it would be ok, although not meta probably. Nulls are decent, they are niche but that is ok. Crematorium are cool as well, but the command ability should have been something more interesting. Petrifex would probably be more balanced if they had rules like reduce rend by 1 instead of +1 save, which often adds up to the same but does not shaft low or non rend armies against them. CP should as mentioned be swapped with Praetorians to hit home the defensive nature perhaps. All this and give morghasts another wound and +1 attack for polearm and +2 for swords and I think the book would be much better internally balanced from these few things alone.

This is true and the legion is what I would call the right kind of balance, as well as the crematorium and possibly null myriad, who all puts either fun twists or enforces a playstyle, or at least intends to. What really kill the Stalliarch lords for me and especially with the battalion is that you really want to have helm of the ordained, getting that 12" +1 hit bubble is sooo good, but the Stalliarch lords forces the first artifact on a liege and not just any hero, so unless you bring 2 lieges this wont happen. Once we talk about paying 400 pts for 2 lieges, then we enter the "why not just bring Katakros in a list" territory. It baffles me they put all the unique heroes in the Praetorians, if only the Arch Kavalos was from the Stalliarch Lords...

That is wrong unfortunately, the rule is they get -1 if near any Praetorians, does not matter how many, still just -1. Just about pointless in a unit of swords, you get +1 to wound but no exploding hits on 6. It is mostly down to rule of cool vs convenience of rolling the same dice. For a spear unit the greatblades are worth it. Nothing in the warscroll says you cant give the greatblade to the Hekatos (just like stormcast do with their primes), so even in a 20 man spear unit, you will get 5 attacks with a bit of rend on.

around 800 points worth of heroes are needed to make that happen. If so we must assume point cost is a non issue to give some 1 wound infantry good saves. If so, why is the eternal starhost with 2+ save saurus guards, who ignore rend 1, which only requires 1 hero for 140 pts just sweeping the podiums? They even got 3 attacks with 1d3 damage each and can just teleport at will with the new GHB. Because any kind of expensive tough 1 wound models are just ruined by a score of other armies. Mortek Guard are good but nothing special, there are plenty of units just as tough, why are these guys to horrible compared to those? 10 pts Witch Aelves with 5++ rerolls which also works vs mortal wounds, Phoenix Guard with their 4++ and so on and so on. Again not trying to say Mortek Guard are not good battleline, but this entire thread being an angry mob vs the new army just makes little sense, in the context of so many other armies which already exist doing the same stuff and possibly better. This thread is an example of a core issue in the community as a whole, the endless complaints about everything which is not your own army, the bias going on in echo chambers, which then also spills into the real world and affects peoples ability to have fun with the game. Guess we'll just have to let the data speak and then see what people pile on next time with some hyperbolic title to go with it.

Battalions giving 1 CP per round is also a big deal and also an artifact. Now this is the real kick in the teeth for the Stalliarch Lords, as their artifact is forced on the Liege and few lists will run with 2. Ideally when using a battalion you'd run with whatever forced on a caster and then grab the helm of the ordained artifact for the liege. A 12" bubble of +1 hit is crazy good for an artifact, so think of that for the battalion as well, for example the guard one gives not only 1 free use of shield wall, but also the additional +1 CP and artifact, same goes for the Deathriders one, not only do you get to retreat and charge for free, but also a free use of the CA and almost most importantly another artifact to grab that +1 hit bubble, which is going to be really good if not running with Katakros. With Katakros I would probably rarely use a Liege Kavalos, and even more rare battalions due to his point cost and needing wounds on the board.

Yea, they just really get shafted with the rest, the command ability loses a ton of value due to the battalion doing the same thing for free. The artifact is also dreadful, somehow even worse than the 4! other blades as artifact, seriously what is up with all those swords and only 1 model with 3 attacks to use them. Getting d3 more dice when charging to possibly roll a 6 on is such an abysmal effect. Funny enough the cavalry legion will benefit stalkers the most.

You can reroll 1 time for free. The battalion requires 3 units of Mortek guard. In order for ALL of them to reroll in every combat phase per battle round, that would require 5 + the 1 free use from the battalion per battleround, just to keep that up on all 3 units. To generate that you for example need a Liege, end another wizard, next to the wizard in the battalion, that is then 4 points and then the 1 more for having a battalion to guarantee all the 3 units of Mortek can reroll their saves, as the ability only lasts that single phase. In that scenario you will not be doing anything else in your army, (unless you get a lot of rolls of 6 when generating points...). This is just for the Mortek alone, then people would assume they also have 7" move, as they can just command point that, and oh also 1 attack because the Liege can command point that, now we are up to 9 points used, oh and they Kavalos next to them can also do mortal wounds and pile in 6" and the OP stalkers can reroll charges... ok now we are at 11 points+ used... See the point? That will not happen. Force the players to mark hard choices with those points. If you got some sneaky tactics, well kill the Liege or support heroes, then they have even less points to spend. Again I stand by it is complete nonsense to consider rerolling saves, or any other of the command abilities as constant. There are even armies around with units who can just pick out the Hekatos who is required to use an ability at all. That is the cool thing about the points, it requires consideration and a plan. The opponent can also use this. If you engage the 3 mortek guard units in the example, well chance are low they will ALL reroll saves, unless they made no extra moves, no extra attacks or anything else in the entire army, in which case you should be doing pretty good against them, and be able to dicate the engagements on your terms. Katakros hits home the theme of the army like a video game boss, namely a Dark Souls boss with all that entails, some people will never beat those games and ragequit, some people enjoy and adore them.

It sounds like some are playing in very casual environments, which is all fine and there is something to be said about army balance, if what you are playing in a club or store or whatever is mostly kids with StD Chariot armies or Idoneth players who only uses Thralls. But at least in my gaming group, with a lot of experienced players, my Reapers even as petrifex have been killed just fine. Tough, sure, and maybe it is because I often play against Slaanesh, skaven, DoK, Legions of Azgorh and Sylvaneth against competent players, but I don't see how this army is more "unfun" to play against than many other armies. Many armies can summon lots of models to the board, others can teleport around and armies like Skaven just chew through the reapers without issue. See what a warpfire thrower does to Mortek Guard? A lightning cannon against just about everything? super charged rattling cannons, even petrifex mortek guard will lose 2 guys for each failed 4+ save, and no reroll as that only works in the combat phase, which many seems to forget. The reapers have a lot of units to chose from, and a lot of army composition options, if you want boring 1 sided builds, look at the Orruk warclans Ironjawz with 3 units and basically 3 heroes to chose from in total. The reapers can do a Cavalry army, a "horde-ish" exploding dudes army, a caster focused army or hard hitting elite army, with a focus on stalkers and Morghasts for example. All will not be "meta" but all of that is certainly playable and has far more options than many other AoS factions have. The lists so far in this very thread, already shows some of this potential, while in so many other armies you see the same over and over again. But sure thanks to pretty good internal balance on warscrolls (NOT legions!) and overall good allegiance abilities, the army will perform rather decent in most situations. If you want to see "unfun" the new Orruk warclans book disappointed me so much, I have absolutely destroyed my friends no matter what I did, you cant even make a bad list, as you have so few units to chose from anyway. They have no issue putting both +1 damage buffs on a huge unit of angry Gruntas or Ardboyz and a Mawkrusha and have them charge turn 1. If you do not play Slaanesh or maybe Fyreslayers to strike first, you will most likely just disintegrate turn 1. In my experience though some types of players will complain no matter what you play. I play a lot of armies in different ways, and a few certain players always complain. Bring a nighthaunt list with Kurdoss and a black coach (both faaar from meta) the second you make a 10+ charge the salt flows. Play Seraphon thunderquake and see the OG complaints of 3+ rerollable saves which ignore rend. Play Ironjawz and expect tears as your +1 damage mawkrusha moves 12"x2 and slams into what it pleases. Try playing Big Waagh instead and get +1 to all hit and wound rolls and you better have earplugs. I guess the answer is for everyone to play SCE and only play with Liberators, Judicators and Lord Celestants.

I will not claim they are not tough, obviously they are as Petrifex, but average at best if not petrifex, so in that context you can at least easily play them in a friendly way if you chose. However these points can easily be said by other armies and also not quite as simple up front. "Easily" ressurrected I'd say for LoN armies, but with only 3 per 130 pts squishy hero with a 6" reach on that ability, or from 360+ point special characters with also max 3 per unit. Harvesters are very situational and also as monsters with only 10 wounds for 200 pts, an obvious target, as they depends on things dying within 3" and also got 1" range on their best melee weapon, they need to be put at risk, while also only having 6" move, there are a lot of variables and positioning issues to take into account. Not to mention anyone running 2 harvesters next to a blob of mortek, would have a hard time securing objectives, investing so much in a slow "deathstar". Discipline points is their allegiance ability, each point requires investments to get per battle around. It is not really feasable to expect all units of mortel guard to have reroll saves in all Combat phases. If you wish above mentioned slow blob to move fast, then you needto use CP, but then you got less for the combat phase. Also 1 CP for 1 combat phase, so they do not reroll saves against shooting for example. People basically assume there are infinite discipline points for all units to have all abilities active at any time, all buffs up and all casts succeed and are not dispelled... Well that is a bit of a stretch is it not? Sequitors have 4+ rerollable saves as well, and get get +1 from a support hero, why are blobs of these guys not steamrolling tournaments? Mortal wounds and rend thats why. Even Eternal guards with sisters of thorns can make better defensive walls with, but doing stuff like this is just not the way to win games against good players at least. What is unfun to play against? It sounds like basically anything that is not a basic liberator with just about no rules is "not fun" to play against. Deepkin with units not being targetable at will, and first strike turn 3 could be said to not be fun to play against. Skarbrand removing your models with 16 mortal wounds in 1 swing is that fun? Evocators landing 9" away but with +6" charge range hitting like Orruk brutes and then exploding you with mortal wounds, is that fun? Morathi being almost immortal? Obviously it can not be claimed that just about all armies are not fun then, by that logic only the current version of StD are "fun" to play against, because they are so gimped they have no abilities to throw your opponent for a loop. If you want to not simply lose every game, your army will have some kind of ability that might be "unfun" to the opponent, because they will lose if they do not adapt.