riddlesworth

This. as long as after the fighter is pushed they are adjacent to no fighters. The value of this upgrade has gone up with the proliferation of range 2 and 3 attacks in the meta - mollog, guardians, profiteers, averon cursebreaker being the prime examples. farstriders would also be there if it wasnt for the fact the mollog exists. However. That increase in value gets it to a fringe card that you might take dependent on your local meta. I don't know that it makes the cut most of the time

@Skellisquad interested to hear what you think your errors were. As people are getting used to playing against guardians, I'm seeing a lot of people keying off on Ylthari early. Be that by cheeky hidden paths, spectral wings riptooth, easy score immediately into faneway crystal and so on. I've been pulling back on gambit spells for this reason, so I'm not completely up the creek without a paddle if I do lose ylthari early. Starting to get some consistency out of this deck. Still dont like keep them guessing but until it becomes a serious hindrance and I bite the bullet on something like shining example, I'll keep it in. Alone in the Darkness has actually been a fairly consistent score against everyone except skellies, thorns and goblins. Even thorns I'm able to use drive backs to make it happen. Later game it's an easy score https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,N265,N266,N268,N269,348,N389,N451,330,291,257,243,N309,N271,N371,N276,336,235,331,361,327,272,N557,N529,N482,374,N290,N506,N503,N499,N485,N527,N550,320,N340

Congrats on the placing chaps! This is the first time I've seen restricted slots spent on tethered spirit. I'm guessing that's because of the investment in ylthari? One thing I have been noticing recently is scorched earth presents a unique problem. I never fail to score it, because I have leech power and unmaking in my deck. The problem with that is after scorched earth is scored, one of unmaking or leech power (the one I didn't use to score the objective) is effectively a dead card. Theres some synergy with reclaim the lamentiri but smart objective placement makes that card easier to score anyway - worse case it's 3 objectives on my side against an aggro player. Freeing up 2 gambit slots is pretty powerful

It feels like you have to tech heavily for it which hampers your flexibility against other warbands. Having said that, I want to get more reps in with the matchup til I cave.

TTK is great. I prefer trap because everyone can use it. Yes, doesn't combo with Swift Strike but does score masterstroke. Swings and roundabouts. Warding Stance over the re-rolls is math. Stephen Vann from Call It Shadespire did it a summary but in general, more dice > rerolls. Same thing with acrobatic. It's even better with gallaghann because of the reaction. Withering doesnt count. It's in the FAQ. Agreed on gambit/upgrade reactions. Potion of rage -> ready for action is my current favourite way to score Lithe Spirits in a single power step .Sphere of Uglu is a solid alternative to Dwindling. Even handicapping Mollog for 1 turn is worth something. Hidden paths I dont have right now but if I went to 22 cards, it would make the cut, and would do so over Last Chance. I'm risking the protection of Ylthari on positioning over holding the card until I need it. Time may well prove me wrong

Got some reps in over the weekend with the mirror match and against profiteers. Some observations and deck tweaks - you have to play aggro into Profiteers. If they get rolling with a couple of early score immediately cards, they are a pain to put down. Getting rid of the balloon boy early gives you a great advantage. - tip from John rees: everyone is running gloryseeker. Single wound upgrades on Ylthari, Skathael or Ahnslaine are a zero gain because it activates gloryseeker. Saw it in action this weekend. He's got a point - lithe spirits can be a hand clogger if you you're overly reliant on crits. On the flipside, potion of rage into ready for action scores it in a single power step and so is probably more valuable than awakened weapon. - the warband can still do work without ylthari but losing her early is a nightmare if you've loaded up your deck with gambit spells. - keep them guessing is great in the first hand. It sucks in the third. - I was wrong about healing amphora. The inspire condition sucks if I want to throw skathael at something early and healing potion doesnt make an appearance so having the extra card to inspire makes a hell of a difference. Helps aggressive gallaghann too - curse of the dwindling. Killer spell. Tips the mollog matchup heavily in your favour. By God is it a pain in the ass to cast it when you need it. I dont know that you can win the mollog matchup without it though. And the magores matchup becomes super tricky Tweaked deck is far far more aggressice: https://www.underworldsdb.com/shared.php?deck=0,N265,N266,N268,N269,348,N276,N388,N389,N451,N274,330,N557,N282,N290,N506,N503,N365,N302,374,N529,291,257,N371,306,N499,N272,N493,N485,N436,243,273,N454

Yea the Russian tournaments throw up some really funky builds from time to time. There was a really weird briar queen one a couple of months back

Yeah he had comp strike instead of victory after victory and the old faithful superior tactician. I dropped combo strike for escalation so I'm more on the defensive side

So you went 4-2? Very nice! How did you find Healing Amphora? How often did you score Death from Afar? I see John Rees won a tournament with Guardians at Warhanner Fest. His deck is interesting - advancing strike being the most interesting choice. I find it interesting that no-one seems to be running curse of the dwindling. While you need Welm of Power and an innate in your upgrade deck to make it consistent, it's such a killer spell vs mollog, magore and stormsire (all warbands I consider to be a rough matchup).

Master of War is a staple in many deck for a reason. I don't think it's a bad swap other than increasing the chance of clogging your hand for victory after victory.

50/50 roll vs 5 wounds - Sudden Growth should be good for 2 attacks unless its Mollog or a big damage spike. I'd be interested to see the draw consistency of 22 with Duel vs 20 without Duel. Scoring Lithe Spirits might push it over the edge for me tbf. And that's a fair point on Upgrades. You should be able to empty your hand pretty efficiently with a continual flow of Glory. Hydragos is amazing when it works. Duellists Speed is very good and always works. YMMV It's not as bad as Eyes, Skellies or Orcs where if your leader gets slotted the warband falls apart, but if you build a spellcasting based objective or power deck and Ylthari goes early, you're up the creek without the proverbial paddle So, my logic here is Gallaghann NEVER needs to be inspired. Ylthari will inspire naturally so you don't need to worry about teching for it (you're taking leech power for the objective removal. the inspiration is a nice bonus). Which leaves Ahnslaine and Skathael. Skathael you'll want inspired against any of the 4 health, shield defence warbands because he can get to 1 shot territory with a single upgrade. Ahnslaine........is a bit of a danglebro for me? Great against goblins with the reaction and low health models. Can do some work against Profiteers as you outrange them and set up kills for Gallaghann. Which means only 1 inspiration you really need to tech for. Healing Potion does that just fine - it's basically Inspiration Strikes at that point. And if you're running 20 cards, you're likely to see Healing Potion. Healing on Gallaghann if you're relying on him to do work is a solid argument for Healing Amphora, but space is tight. I think it moves to the bubble depending on meta. There's a reason no-one really took healing cards beyond the first wave of expansions - and that lethality, while lessened by the BAR list, is still there. With the amount of good objectives out there, there's more restricted space for trap, pit trap, ttk etc. Not to mention Great Strength and Gloryseeker in every damn deck. Here's my logic: it is pitifully easy for fighters to get to 3 damage, most warbands either start with or have someone who inspires to 3 damage. Gallaghann gets hit with a 3 damage attack, has 1 wound left. Healing Amphora will not save him from that second attack, to say nothing of the old faithful Charge -> Ready for Action combo. If we assume a wound upgrade on Gallaghann, then he survives the second attack, but a single upgrade on Magore, Gurzag, Riptooth, Tefk, Vol, Kcharrik etc. puts us back in the same situation. EVEN if that wound upgrade is Sudden Growth, he's still at 2 hits to be killed against 4 damage attacks (6 -> 2 -> 4 -> 0). Wound upgrades, Defence upgrades, positioning and controlling the engagement are more important for Gallaghann than taking a valuable ploy spot for Healing that has minimal net gain against the warbands you want him to do work against (hard hitting fighters who will one shot the rest of your band). This is all opinion and theory obviously, but I've got my next set of games next Sunday (19th) and Sphere of Ghur is looking far more attractive than Healing Amphora.

A thought on this given my last comment. Would you drop healing amphora for Sphere of Ghur? With leech power, crit reaction and healing potion you can inspire ylthari and skathael. Do you need to invest more resources inspiring anyone else?

The best Cursebreakers decks I've seen and played have a similar style to the Guardians - passive score and starve aggro of glory round 1, win the fight with upgraded fighters round 2 and 3. I'm undecided on whether Cursebreakers do this better because of base stats. My buddy is running Alone in the Darkness. You don't see it as much any more now that Great Concussion is gone, but it's worth trying it out, simply because against the Aggro bands that you won't be able to get early kills off, it's a much easier score than against, say, Gitz (which are still popular even in the Mollog meta). In your deck the decision is between Awakened Weapon and Sudden Growth I think. You could take Great Fortitude instead - great for Gallaghan, less good for Ylthari. The other challenge with adding Alone in the Darkness is the chance of clogging your hand with end phase and not scoring Victory after Victory. On Lifesurge - I'd swap for Abasoth's Withering of Sphere of Ghur. Both help with Song of Hatred. Withering helps chip away at someone so your low average damage isn't so painful (and makes Ahnslaine more of a finisher). Sphere of Ghur helps Gallaghann before you get Awakened Weapon out or helps Skathael hit those crits. How consistent do you find 22 cards? Duel of Wits has always been a bubble card dependent on deck for me.

I like it a lot. I do notice that our objective decks are morphing into each other. Hopefully that's not just echo chamber. How do you find Sphere of Ghur? Just a useful one to have for Song if Hatred?

Agreed. The less you need to interact with the opponent in that first round (or over the course of the game) to score your glory, the better. It's why defensive play was SO strong in Shadespire - what armour, get thee hence, strong start (not to mention the restricted cards based on killing) just become so hard to score in Round 1 and then you're in an upgraded vs. unupgraded fight in round 2, which most warbands will lose. Also one of the reasons Cursebreakers are so bonkers good. @PJetski after getting a couple of reps in with the deck above, I'm 100% on board with KTG and keeping CoT. Victory after Victory has been a consistent score, as has scorched earth. The only objectives I've had any difficulty scoring having been Escalation in Round 1 (even with all the score immediates), Lithe Spirits (when I haven't set up an Ahnslaine kill or I'm relying on crits) and Song of Hatred in the rare occasion that I draw it late and I've burned my gambits to score other objectives. On Abasoth's Withering - still really solid for me. The ability to make a 4 health fighter 3 health in preparation for Inspired Skathael or Great Strength Gallaghann is awesome. The ability to do it 3 times (Pangs, Sphere, Withering) is incredibly reliable. It does make Ylthari a target, so the inclusion of Last Chance and playing Acrobatic has been key, as well as picking my fights with her. On Constant Growth vs. Re-Roll upgrades - the psychological impact of 3 shield defence dice has been as expected. Gallaghann either gets heavily targetted (leaving Ylthari safer to do her thing and Skathael to maybe get 2 charges in rather than charge and getting slotted). Or he gets left alone. In which case, 2 hex reach with 3-4 damage dependent on other upgrades is a problem. I don't know that re-rolls will have the same impact. EDIT: stuck a post up in the warhammer community page. The Call It Shadespire guy ran the math. More dice = better is what it boiled down to, so my math clearly sucks when there isn't a good online calculator... It's very consistent, but I do want to add Stand & Shoot/Duellist's Speed to make 22 cards. I keep considering Cover Ground, but the way I'm playing the warband right now as flex defensive/aggro mix means I'd literally be including 2 cards (spectral wings/movement boost or faneway) to score a single objective. This is also the reason I'm not running Hidden Paths. Doesn't fit the plan.

If you include 3 "kill" objectives (masterstroke, sorcerous scouring etc.), the chances of getting them in your opening hand: 1: 49% 2: 12% 3: 0.004% So 1 in every 10 games, you'll get 2 in the opening hand. I would be tempted to mulligan at that point vs stormcast and magores. However, if the other objective is something like calculated risk, or keep them guessing, or song of hatred (and you have a gambit spell on hand - roughly 46% chance if you have 4 gambits in a 20 card deck), keeping them isn't too much of an issue. and against Zarbag, Eyes, Skellies, even the dwarf warbands is not so bad. Against Mollog, I can see an argument for including Hidden Paths to get at the squishy members at the back. if you're running ready for action and trap, with ahnslaine and scatheal's reactions, masterstroke is eminently scorable Gallaghann having knockback when inspired is less useful because he is lowest priority for inspiration. He's good enough to do his job on his base stats and gains very little from it. Unless you're including mutating maul, I don't see that the warband has the base stats to include What Armour or GTH. Both require successful attacks btw. GTH can't be scored on a kill as drive back happen after damage. Stumble making the cut in a 20 card deck is tough too.

Vytrix is there for double channel spells like Curse of Dwindling. If you're not running them, you can get away with just running Well of Power. Ways to score KTG efficiently: - crit reaction - Ahsnlaine Reaction + Attack action - Ready for Action attack/move If I'm running Calculated risk, my boards are Arcane Nexus, Penitents Throne and Ruptured Seal. Arcane Nexus is used against opponents that I think/know will go long board (Mollog, Skellies, Tzeentch, Magores). Ruptured Seal and Penitent's Throne are my reaction boards if I win the roll, depending on what my opponent has placed. If I lose boards and don't think they'll go aggro, Penitent's Throne is my go to.

Agreed on Change of Tactics. While they have Last Guardians in faction, I don't think it makes the cut because of the pressure on ploy space. RE: Warding Stance. It's a good point. I can do the math on 2 dice with a re-roll, but I get lost at 3 dice with everything except single crit. Chances of rolling a single crit on 3 dice are around 42.1%. Chances of rolling a single crit with a re-roll on 2 dice is 43.5% so my gut says it may be a wash except there is a chance to roll triple success or triple crit with 3 dice. Unless your opponent is a math savant though, 3 dice is far more discouraging than 2 so the psychological impact is greater. The question is, do you have a slot for both? If you're only really going to gear 2 fighters proper, with some of those upgrades being multi functional, you'd pick Ylthari and Gallaghan: Ylthari: Blessing of Vytrix, Well of Power, Acrobatic, Archer's Focus, Sudden Growth Gallaghann: Great Strength, Warding Stance, Constant Growth, Gloryseeker, Awakened Weapon What do you drop for a Trusted Defender and Champions Fortitude? Archer's Focus maybe, but that's beneficial to Ahnslaine as well (did I mention I hate 2 dice smash attacks for reliability?) But from Gallaghann? Maybe Gloryseeker so he only hits for 3 and you rely on Ahnslaine or Gambits as a finisher. Gloryseeker is useful on literally everybody. Unless you run a 24 card deck. But we've discussed those

As long as its easy to tell what the models are (there's a company out there that does printed name plates for bases, for example). I know John Rees (canyourollacrit) converted skinks for his scaven warband. Scaven can still go competitively. Skritch is still one of the best models in the game - easy inspire condition, threat range only matched by farstrider, jagathra and ahnslaine, single upgrade away from one shotting everyone except for gurzag, mollog and inspired fjul, single upgrade away from 3 defence dice (and therefore 50/50 crit defences). The other scaven are fast, so you can play objectives if you want, but there's enough passive objectives to plex a flex control/aggro even with the BAR list in play. Martyred, Calculated risk, cover ground, change of tactics, escalation, shining example, fired up etc. The ideal situation is Skritch with acrobatic, great strength and awakened weapon. You get those on him, he's a ****** terror with range 2.

Rebound scoring masterstroke is painful for your opponent...been o the receiving end of that. To fit superior tactician in, I'd drop either awakened weapon or change if tactics. With so many score immediately objectives you should be fine without CoT. Life surge doesnt inspire unless fighters are wounded already so it will help your calculated risk fighter and gallaghann. That's about it. Unless you're in a shard gale heavy meta. You have the spellcasting boost for a big spell - Curse?

With Ylthari only being 2 damage when inspired and having 2 spells in the deck that can score this objective (FAQ says no to Abasoth's Withering), it's more of a second round card - where aggro warbands will be coming anyway and where against control i'll have hopefully whittled down a fighter to let Ylthari finish. I am very aware though of how vital Ylthari is to this deck. It's why sudden growth is there. It's why I'm considering Acrobatic and Last Chance because she needs to stick around. I'm flipping back and forth on them. On the one hand, you are absolutely correct. I need to get better at planning the turn for it but KTG is a great objective for warbands with card actions - especially reactions. On the other hand, this deck does not need to go all guns blazing unless the opening hand is the 3 score immediately kill cards. Even change of tactics doesn't require putting someone in much danger due to Ahnslaine's threat range. So Masterstroke works with trap/pit trap/ready for action/ahnslaine (with some setup)/skhathael. Death from afar works for Ahnslaine, Ylthari AND any spells Ylthari casts (again, bar Withering...). If I was to drop Trap for Last Chance, Death from Afar would be the better card, but take your point on the lack of synergy. If those changes were made, we'd be looking at something like: Vital Surge is an option...it's not the best one, but it is an option... You may have a point on Abasoth's Withering. The damage output on the fighter cards just really needs some help and Withering is one way to do it. I want to try Stand & Shoot + Duellist's speed but Upgrade space is actually really tight here. The minute you include a double channel spell, you need 2 upgrades to make sure you can get it off consistently (because 2 upgrades in the deck is a higher chance of pulling one when you need it, not because it needs 2 upgrades to go off). You could take Frozen in Time to neuter Mollog and Magore, but Curse of Dwindling has a longer life span. You need wound/defence/accuracy boosters if gallaghan is going to do any close combat. Any strategy having Ylthari at the core needs some defence tech for her. You need at least 1 damage booster for Gallaghan or Skathael to deal with 4 wound models. At which point, you're really running out of space. And you still need the upgrade equipped at the time of using the ploy, otherwise you might ping 1-2 wounds off the model charging in but you still get slotted. Having what is basically Quick Thinker in a post BAR world though is insane. I'm going to get some reps in with the Combination Strike/Victory after Victory combo. If I do decide to include Keep Them Guessing, it will be at the expense of Combination Strike, because then KTG still helps victory after victory.

The BAR list doing its job is a good point to make. With its first iteration, I was finding I was spending 4 of my 5 slots on objectives (with the obligatory Ready for Action). Now, with the amount of good objectives out there, I can use some of my restricted slots on Ploys or even upgrades (my last deck took 2 restricted upgrades, god forbid). So that shows its impact on the meta. I expect its update will shake it up again. I can't see them benching warbands. GW is a model company after all and limiting warbands for play is counter intuitive to shifting more product. Absolutely expect the rotation of Shadespire universals (which impacts the BAR list once again - suddenly Fired Up, Sudden Growth, Loner, Pit Trap are all back in play).

This is correct (Goblin FAQ on Scurry). So there's the potential to set up Ahnslaine for a kill with a charge, make her reaction for an attack to get 3 of the 4 needed actions for KTG. Ylthari's reaction on something like Abasoth's Unmaking is also a nice way of ticking one of those boxes. With the amount of Passive Score Immediately available, my playgroup has done some deck refining and come up with something more like the deck from @PJetskiand very close to the deck that Aman from hexes and warbands won glass with on opening weekend. It's a flex control/aggro deck that much like Fyreslayers and Cursebreakers, scores passive glory in turn 1 then equips upgrades to counter the aggro turn 2: Ahnslaine's massive threat range makes change of tactics a no brainer. Likewise Ahnslaine and Ylthari can score Death from Afar. If Ylthari does this with one of the gambit spells, even better for sorcerous scouring. 2 sources to score Scorched Earth. 4 card based reactions plus the character card reactions for Lithe Spirits. Only 3 objectives based on actually killing the enemy and only 4 based on engaging. I had a restricted slot free so upgraded Great Fortitude to Sudden Growth meaning Ylthari goes to 5 wounds (i.e. 2 shot territory against everyone but Mollog). With her access to healing that should be grand. I bit the bullet on Calculated Risk. It's so darn easy. Penitent's Throne, Arcane Nexus and Ruptured Seal are all solid boards for 4 fighter control play so it's not that limiting. Now, I'm a 10/10 power deck guy, for consistency. But Grand Clashes have been won with 11/11 and even 12/12. So cards I'm considering: - Duel of Wits - it's a reaction, so Lithe Spirits does not rely on crits. It helps mill through the deck as with many score immediately cards and the amount of burnable gambits, i'll be emptying my hand often and having those extra two draws would be good. Improvisation is a better draw but isn't a reaction - Last Guardians - score change of tactics in a single activation. Give Gallaghan the option of being very aggressive and being on guard with 3 dice - Sphere of Ghur/Strength of the Burgeoning - The strategy here is to upgrade Gallaghan and Ylthari to carry the load but also have some of those upgrades be usable on Ahnslaine or Skathael (gloryseeker, potion of rage, archer's focus). +1 dice or +1 damage. The Sphere is probably more valuable given that I'm looking for Gallaghan to do work. Also helps score Song of Hatred. Speaking of... - Awakened Weapon - If Gallaghan is going to do work, I don't trust 2 dice smashes. I just don't. I don't have the restricted slot for awakened weapon, but I would consider dropping sudden growth back to great fortitude and taking awakened weapon as an 11th upgrade. - Last Chance - over half of my gambits and 2 of my objectives are unusable if Ylthari dies. In my game vs Guardian's this weekend, I drew Spectral Wings, Inspiration Strikes and Determined Effort in my opening hand. Riptooth proceeded to make Ylthari an expensive chew toy. I cannot have that happen to me in this deck. It's also a reaction... - Fighter's Ferocity - Ylthari, Ahnslaine and Skathael can make use of this at all ranges. More damage is nice. - Tome of Offerings - because it's Tome of Offerings. Even 1 kill with this equipped will make a difference

So - getting this all back on track... Played my first set of games today. First was me playing magores I to my buddy's guardians (hes running a very similar deck to me) and then my guardians into his objective control eyes of the 9 (complete with all the tactical supremacies) Thoughts: - hyper aggro magores cause problems for guardians because they are on you fast and guardians tend to crumple. - Spring seed step is a card I cannot get the hang of using. - gallaghann with great strength and warding is a legitimate terror. Hard to put down, hits like a bus. Has 2 dice syndrome though - haymaker, potion of rage et al will be real important for him. - despite the potential ease of scoring with reactions, keep them guessing is still a really restrictive card to and stops you doing other things - a magical play style is entirely possible. I ran 4 gambit spell (unmaking, withering, aqshy and curse of the dwindling). Will play around with spellcasting objectives and other gambit to see if this can work - noone has rated healing amphora particularly highly. But having only healing potion and leech power in the deck feels limiting without other ways of inspiring. Tome of healing or vital surge is a possibility but gallaghan usually being front and centre and a high wound pool means you will get a chance to use it

Much like farstriders in shadespire, I think the blend of defensive/control objectives and aggressive power deck is the way to go. Leech power is worth running because of scorched earth, reclaim the lanentiri and song of hatred. The fact that it inspires as well is bonkers. Of course, noone is talking about just running inspiration strikes. That and healing potion works just fine - doesn't hurt magores any to run 2 inspire cards and you have roughly a 1 in 2 chance of drawing one of them in your first hand. I agree though that 2 inspirations per game is all you're really looking for so you could get away with Leech and potion. Absolutely on board with loading up on the damage ploys. Upgrades are too pricy to rely on. The deck I posted above has 3 gambit spells and 1 ploy for just such reasons.