Mark Williams

Sorry, I think I'm getting old and losing my patience for internet debates. I guess that didn't come across very well. What I was trying to say is that I don't want to go back and forth on this issue for multiple posts, and that if you understand my point of view but don't agree with it, that's the best interaction that I can hope for with you. I don't want to keep debating you trying to change your mind. I just want you to see my side of things and then I want to bow out of the discussion and go do something else with my time.

I'm not as positive about this ruling as I was the Longstrike one. My understanding at this time is that the same logic that you're applying to say it's interpreted one way (ie the rule doesn't explicitly say to do it one way, and there are some similar abilities that do) is the same logic I'm using to say it shouldn't be done that way. I feel that if they wanted it to work that way, they would have explicitly said that, and in the absence of that, I look at similar abilities in the same book and have it work in a similar way (ie resolving damage against each target seperately). I can see a good argument for either method. My concern, as with the Longstrike debate, is the level of confidence that you're placing in your answers on the public forum. We're in a stormcast group where everyone here has a vested interest in having it work a certain way, so you're in a situation where you can easily create an echo chamber where everyone eagerly agrees with you and doesn't want to see it any other way. If you at least admit that it's open to interpretation and that the rule is vaguely worded, that's good enough for me to agree to disagree.

Trying this again then, but more PC. The Prime’s comet strike is worded vaguely. Both interpretations can be valid by the way that it’s worded. Rolling a single D3 for the damage instead of for every unit gives you an advantage because you can change the result of the dice with the fates ability. My preference is that when I’m given a vaguely worded rule that can be interpreted in one of two ways, I choose the one that is worse for me instead of best. I think this is generally a good way to go when looking at rules that could go either way, and it might be a reason the TO rules to roll seperately for each unit. Finally, on the subject of other similar strike abilities in the book, the fact that they resolve damage on each unit seperate makes me feel that it adds strength to doing the same with the prime. The fact that no other language was used to qualify it, in my opinion, was both for the sake of brevity and also an assumption from the rules writers that it was clear how to do it without needing additional clarity. I agree after the subject’s been brought up that the rule could be worded better, and that it needs an FAQ if large pockets of players are playing it two different ways.

This is what I've ended up going with: Allegiance: Legion of Blood - Mortal Realm: Shyish LEADERS Neferata Mortarch of Blood (340) - General - Lore of the Dead : Vile Transference Coven Throne (240) - Artefact : Orb of Enchantment - Lore of the Vampires : Spirit Gale Vampire Lord (140) - Nightmare - Lore of the Vampires : Amaranthine Orb Necromancer (130) - Lore of the Deathmages : Overwhelming Dread UNITS 10 x Dire Wolves (140) 10 x Dire Wolves (140) 20 x Skeleton Warriors (160) - Ancient Spears 5 x Black Knights (120) 5 x Black Knights (120) 5 x Blood Knights (180) 5 x Blood Knights (180) ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Suffocating Gravetide (20) Extra Command Point (50) Balewind Vortex (40) ............................................. The reason for the 10 dire wolves is that I'm having a dog of a time holding objectives and blocking people from careening into my best units as soon as the game starts. The skeletons are great and don't get me wrong, but they spend most of the game just sitting in the back field not doing much, and I don't tend to move them around much either as I just have them surround my necromancer and baby sit him. Most of the army has a forward momentum to it, but the dire wolves are basically the "ablative wounds" of the first charge (taking or receiving). I found that 5 just didn't hold the line long enough to make something happen, but 10 is enough to where they tend to survive 1 round of combat and have time to heal back up a little, plus I can bring them back to life with a command point and they become a real pain in someone's side at that point. Our tournament is coming up in a few weeks, and I'll write up a battle report after that. In play testing the army, I'm finding it's only real weakness is just a lack of tactical flexibility. It runs forwards and attacks things, but there's very little gameplay outside of the assault phase. Occasionally I have a very interesting hero phase, but that's completely hit or miss and seems random as heck. I've had a game or two where Neferata's command ability completely stuffed someone's assault army, but that's also pretty spotty too it seems. I admit it's fun when you fight an army with a pretty low bravery, as the minuses to bravery can really mess with people already hurting in that department.

This is my current Gotrek list. I’ve been doing very well with it. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar Mortal Realm: Aqshy Lord-Castellant (120) - General - Command Trait: We Cannot Fail - Artefact: God-forged Blade Knight-Incantor (120) - Spell: Lightning Blast Gavriel Sureheart (120) Gotrek Gurnisson (520) - Allies 5 x Liberators (90) - Warhammer & Shield - 1x Grandhammers 5 x Liberators (90) - Warhammer & Shield - 1x Grandhammers 5 x Judicators (140) - Boltstorm Crossbows - 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows 3 x Aetherwings (40) 3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (170) 10 x Evocators (420) - 10x Grandstaves - Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning Suffocating Gravetide (20) Extra Command Point (50) Everblaze Comet (100) Total: 2000 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 520 / 400 Wounds: 96

My only comment from a LoB player is that I've found it can be difficult to have enough units to capture all of the objectives all over the board. The new meta has a lot of missions where you're expected to baby sit an objective somewhere and you can't really move from it or you lose points. I think it's going to end up hurting lists like this in the future where your game plan is for your entire army to sort of be "moving forward" the entire game.

I asked this question of a TO before an upcoming tournament, and they are ruling it that if it's from a single source (spell or ability) doing mortal wounds, it will get reduced to 1.

I'm planning to bring this list to a tournament in August, and wanted to run it by you guys to see if there's anything wrong with it or if you see room for improvement. I have a sideboard of the following units/models: 2 Vampire Lords on foot 1 Winged Nightmare Vampire Lord 20 additional skeleton warriors with spears 2x5 Black Knights 2 units of Bat Swarms 1 unit of Fel Bats 1 Purple Sun of Shyish I still have enough time that I could paint another unit or so before the tournament as long as it's not too big.

After playing the game for a few months and resting on this question, I was re-reading gotrek's warscroll today and I think it sadly doesn't reduce mortal wounds inflicted to 1. I think it only reduces normal damage. So in an example where a Keeper of Secrets attacks him and deals 5 mortal wounds from a single attack, we've bypassed the damage step and just went straight to mortal wounds inflicted, and he has to make a damage save for all 5 mortal wounds. Although I don't want it to work this way, it seems like the most logical interpretation of the rule. Mortal wounds are not inflicted in groups... but I will probably ask a TO before I take him to any tournaments. Maybe they will see it a different way.

I ran a list very similar to this for about a year. It works pretty well but you almost have to double turn your opponent to make it work against certain armies. You also have a major issue capturing objectives quickly enough to win on points, as you have to shoot your enemy off an objective and then wait another turn (or 2 if you get doubled) before you can start scoring. Sometimes this means even if you start winning on models you’ll lose the overall game. It helps to have more “moving parts” on the ground to balance it out.

Played against a tzeench opponent last night. Horrors are waaaaaaay undercosted....

@Dayman85 Thank you for the advice, and I will look at trying some of your suggestions. The advice that you've given me doesn't completely gel with my strategy as I don't tend to start the evocators on the board, nor do I buff them with my castellant or encantor, but I can see what you're intending to do with them and I think that is an interesting combo. One thing to note about your suggested strategy in regardes to Mystic Shield is that Evocators already re-roll 1s against shooting attacks - this is something that I very often forget actually... @Juicy Yes, Gavriel is not considered competitive by today's standards, but what I have found is that if you are playing Hammers of Sigmar, it's as competitive as the list can get. If I don't take him, my list gets considerably worse and there's nothing inherent in available in that subfaction that can make up for it. You basically have to go to a different subfaction if you want a stronger list, which narratively is not something I feel like doing. I've enjoyed playing my army the way I want and developing tactics around Gavriel these past couple of years. It's not perfect, but I find most people are just too lazy to try to defend against him, even very good players. I've absolutely won a few games in tournaments that I probably shouldn't have because of him, so he's still a major threat, just not the boogeyman that some people thought he might be. I think the crux of the reason he's not stronger is that it's a one-time combo and drains most of your CPs. All of my Stormcast units are basically "one-hit wonders" on the board, which is the biggest issue with the army. You do your tricky combo move and then you're just kind of a sitting duck on the table after that. C'est la vie!

Firstly, it’s a “take all comers” list. Pointing out certain armies that will full counter it and using that as basis for it not being in the list is a non-argument. In a random or tournament situation, it’s true that some armies will hard counter you, but if you lose against those armies, you’ll spend the entire rest of the tournament playing against armies that can’t, at which point it becomes a non-sequitor. In any case, in a nutshell the spells are used like this. Deploy the knight encantor as late as possible, more than 30” away from any opposing wizards, but 36” away from the best spot to land it. You will be out dropped 80% of your games and your opponent will almost always make you go first. Cast meteor, and hope for the best. If your opponent has a bunch of 5 wound heroes in a small clump, drop the prime next and use the comet to wipe out as many as you can turn 1. Drop the birds, raptors, and aetherwings within 18” of a damaged hero alternatively, to kill it off turn 1. Dias arcanum is cast second, at which point the encantor turns into a flying objective grabber (can also be cast first turn to grab an objective as well. Maelstrom is almost never cast, but just something you throw out late game if all your other spells got out, to add insult to injury. You just throw it into the closest combat and it screws up other casters and eventually explodes. It’s just a 10 point filler spell, that’s all. Edit: As for the extra command point, you have to have it for Gavriel. There’s no choice not to take that

This is my current “take all comers” list: And this is my current tournament list: Both lists work the same, 5 units on ground, 5 in sky, 1 seperate deployment. It’s a tricky list to use but I rarely play someone that I couldn’t beat given enough knowledge of their army beforehand. I typically go 3/5 at tournaments with this, with a very rare lucky 4/5 if I get the right matchups. Yeah it’s not an S-tier army, but it’s definitely not dumpster fire either.

Although I agree whole-heartedly on the state of Stormcast as a whole, I would feel bad if I didn't point out that I've been playing with a Hammers of Sigmar army for quite a while now, and I can definitely make them work to a point where I'm never a pushover in my local hobby group. It is possible to build a competent list without Anvils. My issue with SCE has more to do with the fact that because the army is so unforgiving, there's really no room for error or mistakes with them. If you build a good list and you're a good commander and luck is on your side you can do alright with them. But you have to know both your army and your opponent's army extremely well. There's no such think as YOLO'ing it. And I do think that's a problem because it makes them definitely not a "beginner" army. The learning curve is too steep and potential for failure is too high. But you can at least build a decent army out of what's there. You can make the book work. Of course I want improvements, and of course I agree that the state they are in is pretty bad. But if you work with the army long enough, you can get them to sort of work. There's enough good things in the book to keep them from being total trash.

spears -> hammers -> axes in small units Axes -> hammers -> spears in large units At least in my opinion. Hammers are like the neutral middle of the road option, but spears and axes are better depending on the size of the unit. I tend to run MSU units with spears personally, but there's a part of me that wouldn't mind experimenting with a big charging axe unit.

Funny cause true.

The batwinged female looks awesome.

Cities of sigmar has a lot of lore to read.

@readercolin Yes most everything in the SCE book is pretty "pillow fisted".

The original stormcast units aren't bad to paint at all. The new sacrosanct units however have a tremendous amount of detail, and use an ungodly number of paints compared to a lot of other armies. Even if you just follow the WH TV guides to paint a sequitor, you end up using like 30 different paints. And contrast doesn't work too well on stormcast models because there's not really a metal equivalent that looks right. But liberators are pretty easy to paint. So yeah at least once upon a time they were a really good starter army to paint. Not sure about now though with the sacrosant units....

Completely agree. It’s not a beginner army. Trap army all the way.

@wayniac I think the difference comes down to the extreme ends of the spectrum that Stormcast presents. If you built a parabolic curve representing the performance of different variations of the army lists, the “hump” of the curve would lean mostly towards the “bad” side of the chart, with a small sliver extending out towards the “good” side. I’d ideally like to see a more balanced curve. I think it’s accurate to say that quite a few armies out there have a much more balanced distribution, or in layman’s terms, they are more forgiving to play.

Summary: 1. SCE are objectively below average at this point in time. 2. The fault mostly lies with warscrolls and not points values. 3. Allegiance abilities are lacking compared to other armies. 4. SCE should have good solid units that don’t rely Much on synergy. Shouldn’t need heroes or other units nearby to make combos in order to feel good. 5. Synergy should exist within chambers, like the new seraphon book or cities of Sigmar. Ex: A warrior chamber hero might buff a warrior chamber unit, but has no synergy with other chamber units. 6. Each chamber should get some allegiance like rules. Ex: warrior chamber units that aren’t characters get +1 SV if they didn’t charge. Staunch defender is removed and doesn’t apply to heroes - no buff synergy from heroes on that level. Warrior chamber heroes get something else, but at the chamber level and can only buff other chamber units. SCE should appear on the board as small “pocket” combos. 7. Remains a small model, elite army. No marauders or chaff units, no points decreases. Units should be small but efficient and powerful. 8. Damage of all Stormcast units should be increased by 1. Libs deal 2 damage per wound that goes through, retributors deal 3 damage each. Every Stormcast on the board should feel like a mini hero. 9. No complicated turn activation mechanics. Army should be simple to play and understand. Abilities on their warscrolls should “just work.” You can’t circumvent them or turn them off with other armies abilities. 10. Army feel should be “slow but deadly.” If they can get to you and survive combat and get to attack, they should hit like a ton of bricks. Dragons should be maw crusha level damage, Ceslestant prime should have 5 base attacks and higher damage per swing, etc. People should be afraid to engage them if they cannot kill them in a single turn. (Effectively double their current threat.) 11. Few changes to Sacrosanct chamber, just make their abilities work and simple to use. Sequitors shouldn’t be able to be attacked without putting up their shield wall, etc. 12. Battalions should be weak, but versatile and allow for many different units to be composed in it. Ex: Don’t name specific units, just say 1 Warrior chamber hero and 2 warrior chamber units, etc.. Allow players to use all their models and still use a battalion. But to compensate, the bonuses should be very minor.

There's a handful of lists that are okay-ish. The best one is shootcast. The average stormcast list that isn't one of these lists is dog-******. So you have the extremes of the army as a whole doing ****** poor, and a handful of very specific lists that are top table contenders. All the armies wash together in the end to get your 43% average. If I don't use Gavriel, I'm basically a 2/5 army. With Gavriel I can win 3/5 pretty consistently. If I want to go any higher than that I basically have to swap to anvils and longstrikes. Then I can go 4/5. That's where the army is right now. Options are limited. The average army without the gimmicks is real bad compared to other competitive armies.