mmimzie

You are right they put out hurt. Its not that they are bad for thier points. they are quiet decent. it's just right now they dont fit in with the eels, and stand alone thralls aren't good enough to be there own army due to surface area issues.

First and most importantly. Our turn 3 is amazing, but there is no reason for you to wait for turn 3 to start playing the game. A good alpha strike is very important, and as such ide advice taking a soulscryer to do. The thralls should only be in units of 10, as getting more than 10 in a fight is un realistic.

Oh yeah also i was thinking of hoping over to tzneetch from my ID. Not sure about it just yet, but putting out fillers. Mainly because the list for deepkin is very.... 1 turn?? Either it's all about turn 1 or turn 3 so i want something that gets more out of the game. Doing some research i'm figuring out what looks good. Was wondering if you folks could guidge me a bit in making a list or point me at units of note. Currently, i'm interested in a list featuring heavy summoning and magic. So i'm looking at units and trying to figure out what to take. Are pink horrors worth taking?? i guess with the arcane sacrafice the answer becomes maybe?? as you can quite start getting a good chunk of blue horrors on the field?? Otherwise they seem best left at home because it seems tough to get the blue horrors out of them other wise?? Enlightend on disc seem like the heavy hitters of the force and seem almost like the required beat stick for the army?? Sort of your horde, big thing stomping unit. Kairic acolytes seem like your durable tank/objective grabing light shooting back up. keep your coven of wizard mildly safe from alpha strikes. SO my list idea for hoping back into tzneetch would be: Lord of Change Artifact: arcane conjuration, Spell: Bolt of change Gaunt summoner general: Arcane sacrafice Spell: glimse the future Tzangor Shaman Spell: Fold reality Magister Spell: Shield of fate 10xPink Horror 10xkairic Acolytes 10xkairic acolytes 10xkairic acolytes 9x tzaangor enlightend umbral spell portal cogs +1cp 1940/2000pts I like the idea of turn 1 army wide +2 to cast to set up the portal reliably and get cogs running.

i believe the latest GT win was with morathi, 30 witches, 30 sisters of slaughter. Which scored better than the 90 witch list, so morathi doesn't make the list any easier to deal with for some armies. that said tzneetch against morathi is pretty easy as she has to auto transform.

shyish the realm of death i believe

You cant start them off the table ID can. With 2 soul scryers that means you can hop on from a table edge with +6" to your charge range rerolling. Even failing that you can just start on the table and still utilize that +6" to your charge along side a 14" move there are very very few situations where an ID army can't pull off a very effective charge if they'd like to. More over you could run royal court allowing you to get the effect of a sort of upgraded soul scryer.

I agree with this. Daughters to me just really can't deal with the deepkin alpha or a Deepkin turn 3 style play. Most armies don't bring shooting at all and the shooting they do bring (like kinari) aren't there to take out morathi they are just back field objective grabbing fodder. Not to mention you don't even need to kill morathi to win 90% of games against daughters. Honestly, if the army has morathi i'm happy that's not more pts of witches. The main killers of something like morathi is long range magic/mortal wounds. i started here i don't like it. The alpha is more important than the turn 3. The 12 eels is gear more toward turn 3 play as your are effectively wasting pts on ~6 eels that won't make it into combat against what you want to fight. In the current meta, when you fight something you klll it, instantly or stall for time. What this means is you want 6 eels in base to base with your target so that you can fully destroy the target unit. with a unit of 12 the extra 6 have a hard time getting in range to fight anything, and definitly won't be fighting your main target and the others on off shoot targets will be scattered and likely maybe 3-4 of them won't be in range to really get thier attacks off. Let alone set up in the first place via scryer. So that leaves waiting for turn 3 which 12 eels are better for as they are very good buff economy. Allowing you to do very effective buffing with only taking a generic king (the safer general option thank to cloud of midnight and soulscryer silliness). Howwever a few buffs on whats left on 6 eels tends to be more than enough to close out any deepkin game where you make it to turn 3. So the alpha strike or the early posturing seems to be more important than the big impact of turn 3. Making sure you don't fall behind in pts for instance such that the swing in your favor on turn 3 is enough to give you a win on pts, or taking out key big killy units like a block or 2 of 30 witchs on turn 1.

They would be good on 25s but I like them on 32s. I think as a power house at 10 man they do that job well. For 140pts you'll have a hard time finding something that his like thralls do. Really the thrall support system just needs a price drop. 80 point soulrender and cheaper lotann. From there honestly even now thralls have some decent tools available to them. 2 or 3 soulscryers can see thralls doing something very similar to the sequaitor/evocator bomb right now. As for reavers all shooting needs a very tiny pts drop as a whole. As I've said else where reavers are actualy quite amazing shooting as they rival some of the best shooting unit damage out put if you look at them over 2 turns, but they also pack a pretty great punch in melee when compared to said shooting units.

I'd say it's a mix of both right??? Its about know when and where you can alpha strike, and what you need to alpha strike. Which armies require an alpha strike of you, and which armies maybe it's better to sit and get a good angle. No matter what to be successful you need to have the option to alpha strike, as with out ability to leverage boats we can divide the deployment zones in such favorable ways as to give us the space we need to alpha. That said if you opponent is pretty well turtled up alpha striking and just end up seeing you quite very shattered, and in which cases taking a multiple turn approach that trys to get a good turn 3 off might be the best bet. As for enclave i have been loving ionrach quiet a lot now that i'm back in the swing with my deepkin. The +1 to cast is a significant factor in the success of my aspect of the sea list. Getting him up with steed of tides and throwing down tsunami, and then charging turn one is decently consistent and really helps with the above alphra strike. As the aspect can join in on the charge thanks to the steed of tides move. plus i'm running 2 tide casters with a vortex, and some allies and i'd been having some great success with my current list. Still working out what allies i prefer more.

i dont play stormcast much, but i've been spying this list curiously. Now doesn't the vanguard conclave no longer have the +1 to wound?? making it kind of meh?? Additionaly i wonder why you don't strive to fit in a hurricanum??

hey sorry never responded to this and i wanted to. I think 3 morrsarr isn't enough to do anything with. So i don't really like the 2nd list, and in both list anywhere i see 3xmorrsarr i'd say go 3ishlaen. You need like a good 6 to do enough damage to really matter. Ishlaen do a great job blocking or locking down units around your initial morrsarr charge. Such that the morrsarr can deal with hopefully only one unit at a time.

yeah but you missed the point. What i said was you can make it so that thralls are as good as morrsarr. Or i should say GW could. GW could make morrsarr cost 180 for 3. The morrsarr are still good but a thrall list could also be good. or make thralls cost 120 etc. Either way by making one worse or the other better they aren't nessarily mutualy exclusive to one another. It's not sub optimal its that both are optimal list that play the game differently within the same faction. Skeletons and sombie, sequaitors and liberators, paladins retributors, gors and bestigors, etc all fill a pretty similar purpose to eachother this purpose is so similar that one will ALWAYS just be the better choice. there is no grey area. Heck look at chimera vs the other behmoths in the beast man list. It's like why would you take them over a chimera it's just so much better. Conversely sequators are good, but evocators are also good. That said they both can exist in the same exact meta and be good together even in the same exact list. One does not make taking the other seems like a bad idea because you bring them for completely different reasons and the other doesn't make. Similarly thralls and morrsarr while they generaly wouldn't be in the same list as they both denote a very different game plan. There is a realistic world where a slower regening horde of thralls/reavers list could exist along side a morrsarr/ishlaen fast pin you down ID list. This though is only an issue of balance. There is no balance that makes a zombie list vs a skeleton list in LoN. As if you make zombies good than you'd take zombies of skeletons, and the opposite is true, because they do the exact same thing. They ahve the exact same purpose. The way you could use zombie compelingly is if you had a faction that was specificly zombies. It's out purpose and in big book with tons of very similar units. There simply isn't enough of a purpose in any given game of AoS to suppost HUGE armies with 20+ unit factions. It just won't work and some units will be completely relegated out of purpose as they will be sub optimal with no reason to take them over the better choice. TLDR: Morrsarr vs thralls are two different game plans. If you do a magic the gather reference it's like playing aggro blue vs control blue both are good, but the cards in one deck are mutual exclusive to the other becuase the plan different. Skeletons/zombie, sequators/liberators, chimera/all the other monsters in beast of chaos, and evocators/paladins all do the exact same thing as their counter part there is nothing subtle about thier difference from one another, and as such they will always be at odds with each other and there will also be a clear winner and loser. The lose will be relegated to uselessness. They can't exist together. Make smaller factions with ever unit having a purpose all it's own.

Sure but there is room there to make a reason to take reavers and thralls right?? Like reacers and thralls can be used become a more durable, horde style recurrsion list. A different list for the same faction that give it another very different way of playing than the eel list. There is a whole suit of synergy for thralls/reavers. Scryers letting yo uget 20 +9" to thier charge so you can actualy get 20 thralls on the board to all attack turn 1, With turtle and reavers backing up the thralls. Tidec aster general switch the tides so the reavers can run and shoot turn 1, and the turtle gives cover you would normaly lose. Then turn 2 you strike first with a blender of thralls to contend with. The main thing is that currently thralls maybe are to expensive or eels are too cheap right now. There is atleast a semi competive thrall/reaver list that could go 3 out of 5 wins at a tournament. DoK i don't know so well, but poor units like that i'd say should be scrapped of given purpose. Maytbe giving they synergy with the melee snake for instance. That give both a real and compeling purpose.

yeah if you souped all the orks than maybe the gore gruntas start to become useless or the arboys are replaced my whatever; or the opposite happens. So i'm more a fan of smalled armies or at least armies built with every unit having a very clear purpose.

I personally don't care for the soup books. So many of the units that could have a place to shine are dulled by the presence of other in faction much better units. It's like stormcast with liberators and paladins VS sequators and evocators. Beast of chaos has the same sort of problem where a good number of the units just don't have a place at all in even i'd say a semi comeptive since of any given force.

He cant get the +1. In the enclave rules it says that the ID in your army are from that enclave, and the +1 tocast/unbind is only given to ionrach wizards. Since there is no way to make none deepkin units count as being from ionrach they can't benefit from the +1 to cast.

the allopex falls into the concern that most cav units did in AoS 1. Where basicly they are quick and don't pack any sort of a punch. When stack up to it's brothers ishlaen and Morrsarr there isn't a role the other two don't do better, and it doesn't combine any of the good feature of those two. So it just in comparison seems like a waste of points when you are making a comeptive list. Casualy the best use for them is a unit of maybe 3 or so getting buffed up by a king. They stack the buff pretty decently and don't require any benefits from having charged. That said they still fall behind ishlaen who haven't charge against most foes. They are also pretty low on wounds. Lastly, the other strength of the allopex is that it has a lower combat surface area. Meaning it needs less exposed front space than say 3 ishlaen/morrsarr to get all of it's attacks in. More so 2 can fit about in the same front area as 2 ishlaen/morrsarr. Meaning you can bring a nice big unit of sharks and pack more of punch per area than the other two units, and this is the same arguement that compares thralls to say ishlaen/morrsarr in the eel favors. The impact isn't quite as big for the sharks however, but it does mean they have assasination options as 1 man units that can sneak behind screens in gaps. Lastly the shark can deliverer assasin, a again isn't too great, but being able to get wormed into small whole and drop a few assasin on top of cahracters wouldn't be too bad. I dont know if allies can take artifacts from your realm but an assasin with a dimensional blade wouldn't be too bad.

It's good stuff, just sucks of your opponent can snipe the 1 and only wizard that can throw your comment, and then you are down 240+ pts. Compare to a king who is 240 pts who atleast can use forgotten nightmare, cloud of midnight, and a soul scryer to live throw most alpha strike style damage. Plus you need to back ththe comet up with some decent shooting or more powerful spells so you can snipe character or do enough damage to start force battle shock. Otherwise it end up only softening a bunch of unit. Like comet + 3 drop ballistic would be good because you are either killing a character or two, or cause some serious battle shocks we don't have anything outside of spells to combo with the comet.

Allies is the whole story of Ionrach enclave working with stormcast eternal on like every other page of the book. edit: like sigmar ahs sent emmsarries to ionrach itself. Though any allaince were voted down. Storm cast helped save nautilar. From there the lore is so open these days (thankfully), to where you could easily have your own settlement of ionrach offshoot enclave that works closely with allies. Also, it's hinted at in the verbage that the whole of ID aren't against allying with any of the other aelf factions edit 2: and while some of the ID seek specificly Aelf souls other enclaves could just as easily only target chaos/destruction souls as to not put off allys etc.

The real arguement is that you use both morrsarr and evocators. Its basicly two units of 6 morrsarr vs 6morrsarr & 5 evocators. Both units have thier pros and cons, but I think together they work really well. As they let you keep the pressure from turn 1 to turn 3. Morrsarr can turn 1 charge with ishlaen. Evocators can turn 2 charge with ishlaen. Then turn 3 you buff what's left of your morrsarr and bring the pain along with attacking first evocators. But as you say you lose stuff. That not a bad thing... its a trade off. It's not like thralls vs eels where going heavy thralls is kind of all a lost comparatively. Evocators its abit of a wash. Evocators can generate more damage and are more durable to shooting than morrsarr in ionrach. Cons wise you lose fuethan, which the reroll 1s to hit is already pretty useless as your morrsarr usually dont charge turn 2 as you want them charging turn 3. The reroll 1s to wound is just +1/6th damage to the weakest part of the eel kit. That said with lots of bonus stacks the +1/6th can go far. Fuethan also loses retreat and charge turn 4. So again it's a choice, and that's a good thing in my book. In a gaming environment where most armies only have 1 list of variation on one list. We now have a pretty awesome 2nd choice that looks and feels pretty good.

Nothing special just current list are about spamming various combinations of eels along with volturnous (or normal king) and a scryer or two.

I also run a similar list, but i run ionrach because i think if you want to run an aspect of the sea +1 to cast is big, and leaping off that you'd either want 2 tidecasters or 1 tidecaster and a balewind to get more out of the +1 to cast. Recently i also threw in some evocators because they fit really nicely in and benefit really well from ionrach. I also take the royal council for the extra artifact. Don't know how the evocators work just yet, but they seem like they should do well enough. ALso i could drop a unit of ishlaen for a unit of thralls, but i haven't had any games where it would have mattered one way or another, and i don't own any thralls, so *shrug*. King deep places cloud of midnight Tidecaster Scryer Aspect of the sea Arcane Pearl 3xIshlaen 3xIshlaen 3xishlaen 6xmorrsarr Royal Court 5x Evocators Balewind Vortex

Well again ionrach gets you past the speed issue alittle bit as you can run and charge turn 2. Plus the cover turn 1, and turn 3 attack first, but I definitely think both is a good option. Morrsarr go in turn 1, turn 2 evocators go in and morrsarr run. Then turn 3 both get stuck in. Well definitely wouldnt want to do it with volturnous as you have to rock a normal king to get the command trait of ionrach.

What do you folks think of evocator allies potentially in ionrach. They are abit more durable than morrsarr with the reroll 1s against shooting, and 8n ionrach they can also get cover. While morrsarr van hit turn one which is pretty big in thier favor. The evocators can make it turn 2 turn and stay fighting through turn 3. Plus they get mortal wounds both turns. Damage wise the evocators do more damage per pts when you include the blast from the eels which means over multiple turns they'll be packing a bigger punch. This damage was factoring in the chance of succeeding of failing to cast the thier spell. Obviously the eels can hit turn 1 either from the line with a scryer point the way or by being dropped. The eels also can get pumped up by your choice of king turn 3. Both together probably wouldnt been to bad of a consideration.

All good I made it through. Thanks though