'Competitive' Disciples of Tzeentch

[AverageBoss]

Skyfires are odd. I feel they are fair for their points alone, in groups of 3 or a single group of 6. Its when you get multiple large units, or units of 9 they become completely obscene. Chaos has access to so many buffs that benefit Skyfires very well, that large units of these can easily become an 8th edition style deathstar.

On the other hand, I think all the Flamer units are just flat out over costed, even completely ignoring Skyfires. Compare them to Judicators, another 160 ranged specialist unit. I think we all agreed when the book dropped that Acolytes and Screamers were over costed. I am also leaning towards Enlightened being overcosted slightly (though not as much as the other units).

As much as I like the DoT book, I think it has some pretty questionable points costs across the board (did not even go into the heroes).

[Gauche]

Can someone fill me in on why Skyfires are considered so good? They're fast and have good range but their damage output isn't as bad as it looks on paper. They're likely to get swarmed in melee if they get there, although they do fight decently. They get a lot from Damned Terrain in blocks of 9, Shaman Bonus but the only other likely offensive bonuses are either Demonic Power or Aura of Mutability. They can be reasonably durable with stacking Mystic Shield, Shield of Fate and Fold Reality but that's a lot of your army pumping all these things out and since you can't take an 18 block there's always a "weaker" one.

They're absolutely a strong shooting army but I don't think Skyfire spam is one of the best lists in the game, despite the results from Adepticon. It really feels like I'm missing something but the Unit is pretty high variance and really starts breaking down as you cripple the Heroes. Skyfires are great for Scenario though. Whenever I talk to my locals about them the complaints seem more Age of Shooting related than with the actual unit. I'd like to know where I'm wrong so I can give them the respect they may deserve.

[Killax]

@Gauche my low-vet opinion on them is that they are exactly the same type of deal as most 'great' shooting units. Being fast and having range means your opponent needs to seriously thake into account in how to deal with them. This starts by making a competative list that either has shooting or can very effectively reach the opponent fast enough.

Not every army out there has 'good' shooting or can very effectively reach the opponent fast enough. This is indeed an ongoing thing for AoS in my eyes. It isn't so much an issue but only if your willing to let go of full and only melee plans.

[Gauche]

Yes, my intention wasn't to say they aren't good. I just don't think they stack up to the other great shooters in the game and people seem to genuinely think they're the best unit in the game. That's my confusion, not calling out anyone in this thread it's just a sentiment I've seen around and also with my local meta. Luckily I was able to get some traction for my argument by beating heavy Skyfire builds.

[Denneysman]

It's their first turn effectiveness that makes them nasty. after the first turn spells and other abilities can lower their threat they still are a great range unit but can be dealt with. If they get to go first there is almost no defense against them in large groups.

[Azurious]

They have a huge 40" threat range with good damage and mortal wound output. If they get stuck in combat the disks can put out good damage too. Then having the daemon keyword gives them huge resilience through fold reality, especially when comboed with fate weavers dice augmentation to prevent the roll of a 1.

All of the above makes for a top notch unit and thats before the 160 pt price.

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[AverageBoss]

4 hours ago, Azurious said:

They have a huge 40" threat range with good damage and mortal wound output. If they get stuck in combat the disks can put out good damage too. Then having the daemon keyword gives them huge resilience through fold reality, especially when comboed with fate weavers dice augmentation to prevent the roll of a 1.

All of the above makes for a top notch unit and thats before the 160 pt price.

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Skyfires + Shaman (because you are going to take him) + Fate Weaver is a minimum of 620 points.

[Gauche]

Their damage output isn't actually that insane, even with the Shaman. I did the math and was underwhelmed, now you can stack more and more buffs on them and Destiny Dice are a random factor but I think their damage is often overstated. They seem like a decent alpha strike but then the army can fold very quickly against the other shooting lists in the game.

Again, not saying they're bad but I think they're overrated relative to where they are.

[Azurious]

Their damage is not insane but it is solid, the fact they bring mortal output also means that they circumvent a lot of units that have strong defence against ranged firepower and they are incredibly mobile. The real strength though is the synergy they have with the rest of the force. Fateweaver, a shaman and 3 skyfires may come to 640 points but there is no chaff there. The two support elements both bring great threat potential themselves through awsome spells and hugely increasing the reliability and resilience of the skyfires.

I should say that I am not complaining about them but rather just putting down why I feel they are one of the strongest units currently avaliable across all GA's.

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[Gauche]

The problem with that package is it's almost no offense. Three shots? That will do very little and you can't put Fateweaver forward or he can get picked off before you use his re-roll. Now the Adepticon list took the idea of Skyfires and ran with it, that made the list powerful since it got a bigger return. I just don't think that list stacks up well with the absolute bleeding edge shooting armies. Now when the next GHB rolls around if Skyfires and their support are untouched but some of the worse offenders get nerfed then I'd say there's reason to see them as a meta-bender.

As is Skyfire spam has a hard time keeping models out of their lines and the competitive side of the game is leaning extremely heavily on gunlines and alpha strike through Movement. Again, not saying they aren't a good unit or a powerful army but I just don't think they're on the same level as some other combinations that can be made and I wanted to get feedback on that. I have no issue believing a Skyfire Tzeentch list could roll through most tournaments or metas because AoS, like most minis games, has a competitive minority in terms of player-base.

[ogmaadn]

Hey guys,

I'm preparing a 1000pt list for my upcoming battles, and I'm not sure which one of the options below is more balanced and competitive. What do you think?

Option 1

Tzaangor Shaman (120pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Tzaangors (180pt)

3x Tzaangor Skyfires (160pt)

3x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160pt)

TOTAL: 900pt

At this point I've got 100 points left, so which battalion should I choose: Tzaangor, Witchfyre or Alter-Kin? Or maybe no battalion and just adding a Gaunt Summoner instead?

Option 2

Tzaangor Shaman (120pt)

Ogroid Thaumaturge (160pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Tzaangors (180pt)

3x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160pt)

Witchfyre Coven (60pt)

TOTAL: 960pt

Option 3

Tzaangor Shaman (120pt)

Gaunt Summoner (100pt)

20x Kairic Acolytes (280pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Tzaangors (180pt)

3x Tzaangor Skyfires (160pt)

Alter-Kin Coven (20pt)

TOTAL: 1000pt

And one last question for any of these 3 options: which equipment do you think is the best for the Kairic Acolytes and the Tzaangors?

Thank you, looking forward to getting some feedback from you!

[blueguy203]

On 4/2/2017 at 2:57 PM, ogmaadn said:

Hey guys,

I'm preparing a 1000pt list for my upcoming battles, and I'm not sure which one of the options below is more balanced and competitive. What do you think?

Option 1

Tzaangor Shaman (120pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Tzaangors (180pt)

3x Tzaangor Skyfires (160pt)

3x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160pt)

TOTAL: 900pt

At this point I've got 100 points left, so which battalion should I choose: Tzaangor, Witchfyre or Alter-Kin? Or maybe no battalion and just adding a Gaunt Summoner instead?

Option 2

Tzaangor Shaman (120pt)

Ogroid Thaumaturge (160pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Tzaangors (180pt)

3x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160pt)

Witchfyre Coven (60pt)

TOTAL: 960pt

Option 3

Tzaangor Shaman (120pt)

Gaunt Summoner (100pt)

20x Kairic Acolytes (280pt)

10x Kairic Acolytes (140pt)

10x Tzaangors (180pt)

3x Tzaangor Skyfires (160pt)

Alter-Kin Coven (20pt)

TOTAL: 1000pt

And one last question for any of these 3 options: which equipment do you think is the best for the Kairic Acolytes and the Tzaangors?

Thank you, looking forward to getting some feedback from you!

If you took option 3 and modified it to incorporate more of the tzangors and drop acolytes, here is what you can do:

 

Tzaangor Shaman (120pt)

Gaunt Summoner (100pt)

20x Tzaangors (360pt)

20x Tzeentch Marauders (120pt)

20x Tzeentch Mauraders (120pt) 

3x Tzaangor Skyfires (160pt)

 

TOTAL: 980pt 20pts left to play with. 

 

Marauders will give you better chances to hold objectives and can try and do some type of damage. 

[watcherking]

Hi, all! Been toying with this 2k list:

I. Leaders:

Lord of Change - 300

Gaunt Summoner - 100

Tzaangor Shaman - 120

The Blue Scribes - 120

 

II. Units:

Kairic Acolytes - 140

Screamers of Tzeentch - 140

 

1. Tzaangor Coven - 40

Tzaangors - 180

Tzaangor Skyfires - 160

Tzaangor Enlightened - 160

 

2. Tzaangor Coven - 40

Tzaangors - 180

Tzaangor Skyfires - 160

Tzaangor Enlightened - 160

 

I hoped to make this list as flexible as I can. There are 4 heroes to abuse the allegiance spells, which will almost always be successfully cast due to the LoC's +1 to casting, and the Blue Scribes casting rerolls. Gaunt Summoner is there to trim down horde units, and the screamers are there to take down monsters. The general idea is for the battle line to move as quickly as possible toward the objectives. The enlightened are there to speed across the battlefield to pin down units, which will then be picked apart from afar by the skyfires, who, in turn, are supported by the Tzaangor Shaman. What do you guys think?

 

[Cthulhus Lawyer]

Ive been thinking about this list 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Tzaangor Shaman (120)
Gaunt Summoner (100)
Fatemaster (140)
Magister (120)
Lord Of Change (300)

Battleline
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (320)

Battalions
Tzaangor Coven (40)
Arcanite Cabal (50)

Total: 1990/2000

 Let me know what you all think . It is a lil hero heavy for my taste but the damage output seems worth it !

[Pannben]

Tzeentch does build good gunlines but there are worse out there, mixed order comes to mind. Mostly theoryhammer from my part sadly but i think you agree. 
 

[Pannben]

On 2017-04-01 at 10:53 PM, Gauche said:

Yes, my intention wasn't to say they aren't good. I just don't think they stack up to the other great shooters in the game and people seem to genuinely think they're the best unit in the game. That's my confusion, not calling out anyone in this thread it's just a sentiment I've seen around and also with my local meta. Luckily I was able to get some traction for my argument by beating heavy Skyfire builds.

With mixed destruction?

[Nico]

Skyfires need a 20% price hike. That should fix the issue. Anything where the game is over because they won the roll for sides and got the Damned Terrain to add a further 50% more mortal wounds to the output of 2 units of 9 Skyfires (3 units of 9 actually fits!) is pretty dismal. The problem is exacerbated by the SCGT pack, where sniping your general turn one is devastating (you lose the ability to burn your agenda cards, several of the agenda cards involve the general; and Battleplans 1 (leaders/behemoths), 3 the Generals are the primary scoring unit and score double and 6 (Heroes score). Given the narrative approach of SCGT - Battleplans tell a story - it makes sense to prevent your general from being a Grot or a Morghast Harbinger in a big unit. but this exacerbates the Skyfire issue even more.

Maybe the goal is to get us to dust off our Nagash models as some of these things would actually suit the Overcosted One.    

With the move of 16", they may be able to sneak around line of sight blocking terrain on occasion).

As I've said earlier what I don't want to see is every rules point being decided against DoT (e.g. Split, Mortal Wounds with Destiny Dice, The Changeling; The Exalted Conflagration typo) with the backdrop being Skyfires are overpowered, then later Skyfires get a cost increase that makes them unplayable; and leaves a wreck of an army.

There is a risk of this happening to Sylvaneth as well (who have had almost every rules point decided against them) - I don't think that Scythe and Sword Kurnoth Hunters need a points increase (certainly unless there's a corresponding reduction to the costs of Sylvaneth Battleline) and any increase to the Bow Hunters should be no more than 10%. They no longer have the monopoly on long ranged shooting that isn't artillery (subject to the crew problem) - with Skyfires and Raptors arriving in swift succession.

[Isante]

As someone who is getting back into Warhammer recently and tends to lean a bit towards the powergaming side of things, one of the few units in the game that I would consider 'OP' are Skyfires. 

[AverageBoss]

I am going to have to disagree with both of you about Skyfires being op. Ignoring armor completely (which would drop their damage), they average 4 damage for a 3 man unit with a shaman nearby (at a cost of 280 points). Adding in the terrain bonus, that goes up to 5. Unlike Kurnoth Hunters, they lack a high bravery stat, and rerollable high armor saves. And unlike Kurnoth Hunters, you can just snipe a weak nearby model to drastically cut their effectiveness.

I feel knocking them up to 200 points would make them very undesirable (not as undesirable as Flamer units, Enlightened, Acolytes, Fatemasters, and Screamers mind you), and would simply further homogenize the competitive DoT lists we see at big events.

[Nico]

Quote

I am going to have to disagree with both of you about Skyfires being op. Ignoring armor completely (which would drop their damage), they average 4 damage for a 3 man unit with a shaman nearby (at a cost of 280 points). Adding in the terrain bonus, that goes up to 5. Unlike Kurnoth Hunters, they lack a high bravery stat, and rerollable high armor saves. And unlike Kurnoth Hunters, you can just snipe a weak nearby model to drastically cut their effectiveness.

I feel knocking them up to 200 points would make them very undesirable (not as undesirable as Flamer units, Enlightened, Acolytes, Fatemasters, and Screamers mind you), and would simply further homogenize the competitive DoT lists we see at big events.

So how did someone win Adepticon with Skyfire spam (I gather pretty convincingly)? Why are people stockpiling 18 or even 27 Skyfires?

Your analysis focuses on the minimum sized unit, which is unrealistic as the unit scales incredibly well and will be used in units of 9.

• Once used in a 9, the extra +1 to hit in exchange for D3 damage inflicted from Damned Terrain becomes even more efficient.
• One Tzaangor Shaman can buff multiple units and the buff is guaranteed. The Shaman itself is on the cheap side at 120 points (6 wounds movement 6, good melee, two spells in one turn, combos well with other units (Tzaangors, Englightened) and it the only credible choice in the Cabal battalion (which is pretty strong). It's not a tax. you would happily pay 120 for the Shaman even if the synergy didn't exist.
• Realistically they will take at least two Shamen, which can backline themselves or hide well and move 16" to get into position.
• One Shaman can cast Treacherous Bond, onto the Skyfires or onto another expendable unit. This makes him practically unkillable.
• You haven't considered the power of bringing back 5 sixths of 3.5 Skyfires to a unit of 9 every turn with the spell.
• The low Bravery was probably intended to be the achilles heel of the unit. However, this is mitigated by Destiny Dice. There are counters involving Bravery Debuffs, but these aren't available to many armies (Stormcast have a few good ones).
• They also have obscene melee power for what is meant to be a pew pew unit. Partly this is because people are misplaying the D3 attacks for the Disk - it's a single dice for the number of attacks, not 9 D3s - this makes the damage output inconsistent at least, although if they roll a 5 or a 6, then it's devastating. See the Hints and Tips (even after the update/FAQ this is still true - it's different for Damage rolls). 
• Stormcast in general have a lot of tools for dealing with them and Khorne at least have the auto unbind of infinite range to deal with Fold Reality.  Death have a chance as their heroes may have a 5+ Ward save. However, they are a pretty anti-fun addition to the game in my eyes as currently pointed (which is a shame as the models are sensational).

I agree that the Flamers and almost all of the Daemon units (not the heroes) that aren't Horrors need to be looked at as potentially overcosted - Screamers should be a useful addition, but are horrendously expensive compared to Skyfires. Englightened seem fine at their current cost.

 

[AverageBoss]

They are being spammed because, as I said previously, the types and number of buffs DoT have access to allows a large unit of Skyfires to become an oldschool deathstar unit (and because everything else that competes with them in the book is overcosted by a fairly large degree). I feel units of 3 and I would say even 6 are fine for their points. So I would rather see them capped at 6 man units rather than bumping them up to 200 points just because of how much better units of 9+ are.

Just my 2 cents anyways.

[Gauche]

Solid points Nico. I still don't think they're the most abusive thing in the game but that isn't an argument for leaving them untouched and I heavily agree that most of Tzeentch's other entries are overpriced. Personally I'm okay with GW keeping things a bit more expensive at the start and then lowering the cost, I'd rather an army be bad for awhile than rampantly OP for awhile.

Getting mileage out of Damned Terrain isn't really a knock against them since that's not reliable but the rest is all true. Any army that spams them will still have issues with damage output compared to some other T1 builds and/or Scenario but they will sweep a lot of lists aside for the moment. I wonder how likely it is that they go untouched since they're such a new unit and their big result is very late into the GHB2 design cycle.

[Nico]

Thanks both.

A lower unit size cap would indeed help - as it makes Fold Reality less potent. This is my preferred nerf for Kunning Rukk Arrers - Reduce to 30 models (60 wounds) down from an obscene 80 wounds. Makes it easier to get them below 20 models for the 50% damage buff.

However as it's 9 it's fluffy ....

What I should emphasise is that my comments are in the context of SCGT where heroes and the General are of such paramount importance. As great as Husktusks are - they cannot kill a hero in the back 2" of the board (ok there is one way...) in turn one. So you can do something to mitigate them.

[Tokyo Nift]

12 hours ago, Nico said:

My comments are in the context of SCGT where heroes and the General are of such paramount importance. As great as Husktusks are - they cannot kill a hero in the back 2" of the board (ok there is one way...) in turn one. So you can do something to mitigate them.

I think this is a big part of it. It's 2017 and "meta analysis" and netlisting are a big part of any game. I think people see how well Skyfires are doing at SCGT and overrate them slightly. In a generic "take and hold" scenario there are a lot of lists that (I think) blow Skyfires out of the water.

[Nico]

Quote

I think this is a big part of it. It's 2017 and "meta analysis" and netlisting are a big part of any game. I think people see how well Skyfires are doing at SCGT and overrate them slightly. In a generic "take and hold" scenario there are a lot of lists that (I think) blow Skyfires out of the water.

Yep - in Battleplans where more bodies is the decisive factor, DoT are in big trouble. If a DoT player rocks up against 4 blocks of 40 Skeletons and a handful of heroes that don't die easily, they have no chance if it's more bodies for the win. Where killing heroes is decisive, the opposite holds. The problem arises since alpha strike lists (above all TK) and Mixed Destruction have been nerfed, Death have been nerfed a lot more because people hate playing against their boring mechanics, so there has been a natural transition to Pew Pew, which has coincided with SCGT battleplans that also favour Pew Pew.

Happily, it looks like Blades of Khorne have some hard counters to Skyfires (an artefact that provides an infinite range auto-unbind on top of the Blood Tithe trait that does the same, which will deal with Fold Reality).

I wouldn't be surprised if an army purely consisting of spamming Khorne Warriors of Chaos (5++ ward vs mortals and genuinely a bargain at 9 points per wound) would do well vs Skyfires and DoT in general.