Disciples of Tzeentch Winners and Losers

[Arkiham]

25 minutes ago, redbeardboss said:

i feel like we have read the book 5 times just looking for why acolytes should be taken lol.  the only thing i can see and im not sure if it works like this but do you roll for the vulture everytime an enemy wizards casts a spell and do you roll for every seperate unit with vultures? still not sure its worth it but if your rolling 2 dice every time they cast it could help drain some wounds off them.

That's how I read it  per unit per spell. 

 

But why take that when tzaangors do it per wizard near by per unit per hero phase.

2 units of tzaangors with 5 wizards near by is 10 rolls so on avg 5 mortal wounds on a target unit per turn.

Acolytes are too costly at 140, 100-120 would be better.

[redbeardboss]

well the acolytes hurt them on their turn and against something like sylvaneth they could be doing 6+ spells a turn so there is some value in the bird. but i also thought for sure they were gonna be the tzeentch blood reavers. i mean at least give the glaives 2 damage. just getting rend for a special weapon is weak sauce lol

[redbeardboss]

oh man i totally forgot the biggest loser in the book. The fatemaster model! it is such a terrible model but i guess they didnt plan on making a new one or it wasnt ready in time to shoot the pictures for the book. lol its not even one of the good classic models either. just a tiny little guy.

[Honcho]

I kitbashed a solution for my Fatemaster. Just had to bust out a famous face I wasn't using.

 

[Soulsmith]

Nice, I was planning on using the chaos sorceror and putting him on a disk.

[Grand Exemplar]

Theres nothing saying that a fatemaster has to be human

Im intending on a conversion potentially from the Chaos Lord model.

[Nico]

Quote

-All Monsters of Chaos. Despite multiple mentions of Tzaangor making use of them, there is absolutely no way of fielding any with Tzeentch Allegiance

The Gigantic Chaos Spawn is an exception - I have a conversion (head is a Slaughterbrute, torso is an Abomb) which should fit the part.

The overall pattern is that the Battleline units are costly and the battalions cheap, which is reminiscent of Sylvaneth. Acos are bad by themselves, but synergise or at least allow other synergies to work.

Tzaangor seem good and I like the fact that they have a susceptibilty to Battleshock and in particular Bravery debuffs (using a Destiny Dice of one isn't going to save you when you've lost 10 models and you're staring down -4 Bravery or -2 Bravery and a forced reroll of Battleshock or pick the higher of two dice. Ditto Screaming Skull Catapult plus Terrorgheists.

The Gaunt Summoner spell is strong, but it's possible to go 4/5 games at an Event without seeing a single army with a unit of more than 10 models in it (I did so at Heat One, which was not ideal for my list). It's a rock paper scissors spell. It's definitely not the best spell in the game - which is almost certainly mystic shield - taking into account the difficulty in casting it. I'm having a ponder as to what the answer to that question is - Skitterleap, Ash Cloud, Death Frenzy, Hand of Gork, Teclis's spell, Dark Mist and Scintillating Simulacra spring to mind as game winning spells.

On the other hand, the GS and most of the Wizards are a bargain. The Curseling is easy to underestimate - I've even considered using him as the general with the 27" unbinding.

Pinks and Battleshock

Pinks do look decent, but having 3 units of them for Battleline becomes expensive very fast. Even with Bravery 10 a modest shower of arrows is going to kill 7-8 of them easily and then you're going to need a Destiny Dice of 1 to save them. We're going to need to work out how the game actually works out what happens when a unit is wiped out by the Battleshock test, but also brings back D6 models (since rolling a "1" does not mean that you "pass" the Battleshock test).

Last time I looked at it (using the rules on how the game deals with abilities that happen at the same time in the Hints & Tips), the answer depended on whose turn it was. If it was the enemy's turn, then they could choose which ability happened first, so the models fled and the unit ceased to exist before the Icon kicked in (and vice versa if it was your turn - you could add the D6 models and then have the models flee afterwards, thus preserving the unit).

Pinks and "Split"

Pinks are also a potential liability if they are FAQ'ed in such a manner that (1) "Split" is mandatory; and (2) that the size cap of a newly summoned unit is the number of models actually summoned (e.g. 2) rather than the minimum number of models in the unit (i.e. 10 for Blue Horrors).

There was a discussion of this on the main DoT thread - we (may have) concluded that the reverse of both of these positions is both balanced and arguable through the rules. I think we reached a consensus that the size cap of a summoned unit cannot be the upper limit for the unit (e.g. for Skeletons 40 models) - as this would be obviously broken (more so for Death). However, if you summoned 12 Blue Horrors - you would pay 2*50=100 points, but you could then top up the unit to 20 Blue Horrors, but not beyond 20. From memory no-one objected vigorously to this or even at all, but we'll see.

You're certainly not getting anything that you didn't pay for, but what DoT players would want to avoid, would be a unit of Pink Horrors:

1. Getting Arcane Bolted in the hero phase and having to generate a unit of 4 Blues that cost 50 and cannot be brought up to 10 Blues in the hero phase; 
2. Then getting shot at, losing 3 Pinks, generating another unit of 6 Blues in the shooting phase, which also cannot be brought up to 10 Blues in the shooting phase;
3. Then getting charged and losing a model to impact hits,  generating another unit of 2 Blues in the charge phase, which also cannot be brought up to 10 Blues; 
4. Then losing 2 models in the combat phase, generating a fourth unit of 4 Blues in the combat phase.

In summary, you could lose 8 Pink Horrors over a single turn, but end up having to spend 200 points and receiving 16 Blues in 4 derpy units (whose actual cost value is considerably lower than 100 points). If the rule ends up being played in this way, then either Pink Horrors will become a terrible choice; or DoT armies will have to abandon summoning completely - neither of which would be positives for the game. Death have already all but abandoned summoning.

 

[Honcho]

I just can't imagine them making Pink splitting mandatory since the rule isn't even on their warscroll. 

Doesn't mean it won't happen, but it seems very unlikely.

[redbeardboss]

ya pinks do not have to split.... i would save maybe 50 points so if 5 die then you put your ten out. or maybe save 60 points just in case ya wanna summon something like a fiend or spawn or whatever.

[Sej]

Skyshoal coven.

The 9 to movment in the hero phase is possibly the best thing in the book.

Rapid re deployment turn one easy

Objectives left un garded or poorly garded.

 

Trapped in combat move over the unit and your behind enemy lines.

 

Poorly guarded artillery charge it your disk will make short work of them.

 

Oh and you can bring them back with fold reality.

 

Dont underestimate the skyfires in combat. 

[Goodwin]

I'm starting to lean towards abandoning the Tzaangor Coven?  It seems like a waste of all that mobility to keep things huddled next to your Tzaangor.

Skyshoal may be where its at.  Its just a shame you can't Retreat and then shoot later in the turn.  As far as I can tell from the FAQ this is not allowed.  Even though, I think I read that the Destruction move DOES allow you to act as normal if you use it to retreat in their own FAQ.  A little frustrating.