Outrageous? Tzeentch Daemon Army

[redbeardboss]

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
Lord Of Change (300)
The Changeling (140)
Herald Of Tzeentch On Disc (120)
Herald Of Tzeentch On Burning Chariot (200)
- Staff of Change

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
1 x Burning Chariots Of Tzeentch (160)
- Tzeentch Demon Battleline if General is Herald on Chariot

Units
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
30 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
20 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (80)

Battalions
Changehost (60)
The Hosts Duplicitous (50)

Total: 2000/2000
 

First turn if possible cast spell with changeling to make a unit worthless from the Host Duplicitous spell, then swap him with the herald on chariot or disc depending on what dmg spell ya want to cast, then run him far aways as possible in move phase. 2nd swap pink horrors to get them within 18 inches first turn to cast their spells. 2nd turn swaps depend on how many units ya got left. you will use swap to get units out of combat or retreat because you can fight but your hero and shooting phase dmg outpost will be wild. 

[redbeardboss]

An upgrade would be taking the Gaunt summoner and bonding him to a unit of brimstone horrors. need to drop 100 points to include him so you could replace the burning chariot with a gaunt and 10 more blue horrors

[Moarhammer]

Very similar to a list I've written. I'm not sure casting the spell using the changeling is a great idea, because then you lose any advantage of the half-movement ability. Swapping with either heralds could also be tricky if your opponent surrounds the changeling. It'll stop him being able to move or swap for a herald. 

That being said, throwing around 30 brimstone inside the changehost is hilarious. And I love the duplicitous spell - it just doesn't need to be used in an alpha-strike way, but can be cast later in the game. 

[redbeardboss]

well say the changeling uses it on judicators and then you swap something to hurt something else near the judicator who now cant hit or wound anything and could be for 2 turns if they get a double turn. I wish they dropped the points of flamers a bit. its hard to fit anything besides lots of horrors in the formations and the non horror formations are really not that good at all. if ya dont have a good place to put your changeling to be within 27 inches of the LoC then you will want to wait a turn or so but as an idea having the 27 inch swap and a unit that cant start on their side of the board is gonna be a nice little trick im thinking. I dont have enough brinstome horrors yet though. Since its all in the hero phase casting then swapping another caster in to cast something else is pretty tricky.

[redbeardboss]

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
Lord Of Change (300)
The Changeling (140)
Herald Of Tzeentch On Burning Chariot (200)
- Staff of Change
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change
Herald Of Tzeentch On Disc (120)

Battleline
40 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (560)

Units
60 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (300)
80 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (320)

Battalions
Changehost (60)
Multitudinous Host (30)
The Hosts Duplicitous (50)

Total: 2500/2000
 

this one would be interesting at 2.5k. break your horrors up into any units ya want but 8 have to be in the multi host and not in the change host

12 spells a turn, 260 missile attacks

[Nico]

Quote

First turn if possible cast spell with changeling to make a unit worthless from the Host Duplicitous spell, then swap him with the herald on chariot or disc depending on what dmg spell ya want to cast, then run him far aways as possible in move phase. 2nd swap pink horrors to get them within 18 inches first turn to cast their spells. 2nd turn swaps depend on how many units ya got left. you will use swap to get units out of combat or retreat because you can fight but your hero and shooting phase dmg outpost will be wild. 

I've been looking at this list even before the book came out.

This is my version:

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form - Tzeentch Daemon Hero
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability 
Lord Of Change (300)
The Changeling (140)
The Blue Scribes (120)
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
10 x Chaos Knights (400)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Slaves to Darkness Battleline
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)

Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)

Battalions
The Hosts Duplicitous (50)
Changehost (60)

Total: 1970/2000

The trick is to fill the Changehost with Brimstones, so that the mandatory units in the Battalions only come to about 1500 points. I then tacked on some Marauders for cheap Battleline and Knights for a bit of toughness and ward saves vs mortal wounds (I have 10 painted ones already).

There are far nastier things you can do with two swaps. Either swap the Changeling for the LoC (who is withing 27" of himself), who then casts the debuff spell Scintillating Simulacra and Gateway. Then you can simply swap them back, leaving the Changeling in place (either to do the same trick the next turn or to have him cast a third spell (revealing itself); and then attack someone with their weapon (with Destiny Dice). Watch out for Gryph Hounds (which might be about to become more popular).

Alternatively  nudge up one Brimstone unit to 30 and do the swap of the Changeling and LoC as above, then swap the LoC for the 30 Brimstones keeping a nice line of 30 models 4" away from their front line, this will block their movement for a turn.

[Thomas Lyons]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

There are far nastier things you can do with two swaps. Either swap the Changeling for the LoC (who is withing 27" of himself), who then casts the debuff spell Scintillating Simulacra and Gateway. Then you can simply swap them back, leaving the Changeling in place (either to do the same trick the next turn or to have him cast a third spell (revealing itself); and then attack someone with their weapon (with Destiny Dice).

By the wording, I don't think you can swap them back.  It says "Whilst a Changehost has 9 or more units, then two different pairs of units can swap places rather than only one."  This seems to imply that different probably needs to actually be, well, different.  One might argue that the different is because different units are being swapped, but I think this might be contested.

[Nico]

Good spot. Perhaps swap the Changeling for the LoC and then the LoC for the 30 Brimstones - as those are different pairs (even if they have one shared unit). 

[Moarhammer]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

Good spot. Perhaps swap the Changeling for the LoC and then the LoC for the 30 Brimstones - as those are different pairs (even if they have one shared unit). 

I'd argue (as devil's advocate) that they have to be totally different units. But it's in the wording. 

That being said, here's what I've been looking into:

1) swap changeling with unit nearby a LoC, summon balewind vortex, cast infernal gateway with changeling. 

2) the changehost wording is very intricate: if you work through it word by word you can, essentially, achieve a free 9" move with (for example) a unit of Horrors. That'd been an idea of mine since I started my Tzeentch back in June - jump them up, then cast a spell from them. Now you can cast the duplicitous spell on units from turn 1. 

Tricksy tzeentch. 

[Dan.Ford]

"Whilst a Changehost has 9 or more units, then two different pairs of units can swap places rather than only one."

"Good spot. Perhaps swap the Changeling for the LoC and then the LoC for the 30 Brimstones - as those are different pairs (even if they have one shared unit).  "

Due to the above wording of  " two different pairs of units can swap places rather than only one." i believe nico has it correct .

Changeling and LoC as first pairing

is different from

LoC and 30 Brimstones as second pairing

even if the you are using the same LoC, the two pairs are not the same.

 

 

 

[Thomas Lyons]

2 hours ago, Dan.Ford said:

Changeling and LoC as first pairing

is different from

LoC and 30 Brimstones as second pairing

even if the you are using the same LoC, the two pairs are not the same.

 

 

 

Agreed but that wouldn't stop people from contesting it.  For those looking for the "right move", if you can reswap one of the units,  the right move is to swap at the top your first turn the Changling (in an enemy starter zone) with a Herald on the Burning Chariot.  The Herald casts his custom Firestorm of Tzeentch that hits every enemy unit within 9" and does a d3 mortal wounds on a 4+.  You then swap them out with a 30 strong unit of Brimstone Horrors (only 120 points) and you space them out with the maximum of 1" between each model and snake them out to be in combat with as many enemy units as possible.  They are obviously going to get blown up when the enemy unit goes but you have totally locked down their turn one movement and shooting (or at least hampered it).  Units either don't get to move, and have to wait to pile in during combat or they retreat and lose their ranged attack.  You will lose a 120 unit for the play but you've seriously gummed up their lines.

In turn 2, if any of the unit is alive, you can actually teleport them out and swap them with another unit to gum up their lines, or you can bring the Herald back in for another bomb and then swap them out again.  I didn't work on this list because I didn't think you could teleport the same unit twice.  I will have to relook at this battalion if you can indeed do it ;-)

[Goodwin]

I've heard it mentioned that you can't 'move within' 3" with things like the Realmgate and the like.  Is this possible because its not 'movement,' and you're setting up the unit.  I'm also assuming because it doesn't specifically state you have to stay out of x", whereas the summoning spells specifically say you have to, that this is okay?

I just want to know what to say when someone calls BS on this maneuver for me.  Know what I mean?

[Nico]

The Changehost is an entirely unqualified set up rule, so no distance restrictions whatsoever. However, the Daemons within it aren't exactly Combat Beatsticks. You cannot put Archaon in it btw. It could be useful for flooding objectives though.

Quote

Agreed but that wouldn't stop people from contesting it. 

Someone can contest anything. However, if they cannot see that pair A+B does not equal pair B+C, then sigh. Of course, a TO could rewrite the entire rule via FAQ for balance reasons to essentially remove the reference to pairs and say that the units have to be completely different, but that's a rewrite not an interpretation - the word pair has to be given some meaning. It's already weaker on the basis that you cannot simply put the Changeling back in place to rinse repeat or smack someone with their weapon. I think it's better if you don't put the 30 Brimstones in combat (over 3" away is perfect), then you don't lose any in your turn and you block them moving (unless they can fly really fast). They would melt in melee and even with Bravery 10.... Gordrakk would have to run and fly to get over a thin line of Brimstones. Destruction Rampaging Destroyers would not help here (he cannot sit over the Brimstones in the hero phase). Where's that helipad when you need it.

The Chariot Spell is like a Drycha bomb and could be very effective against MSU (especially Sylvaneth or Stormcast). However, LoC lobbing 6 mortal wounds with Gateway (average) and then another 6 with Bolt of Tzeentch and a destiny dice of 6, could be rather nice too (bye bye Durthu, bye bye Thundertusk). Take both and then you can deal with more types of threat. Alternatively the Changeling could cast Bolt of Tzeentch first (with Destiny Dice as necessary). Lots of good options.

 

 

[Nico]

Quote

I've heard it mentioned that you can't 'move within' 3" with things like the Realmgate and the like.  

This is part of a wider debate. It's still up in the air. Search for "Warrior Brotherhood" and you'll find recent posts on the subject.

[redbeardboss]

so i read it as 2 entirely different pairs and its already so good i dont think it needs to be swapping the same thing twice. Also, im pretty sure the destiny dice cant be used on spells besides casting. there is no limit how close they set up because the movement is in the hero phase and also doesnt say counts as movement phase.

Not really in my list idea yet but that spell that returns d6 models or kills the unit would be awesome on a unit of 3 burning chariots lol

[Nico]

Quote

so i read it as 2 entirely different pairs and its already so good i dont think it needs to be swapping the same thing twice. Also, im pretty sure the destiny dice cant be used on spells besides casting. there is no limit how close they set up because the movement is in the hero phase and also doesnt say counts as movement phase.

That's a very subjective reading. You are literally reading it that way for balance reasons without considering the considerable cost of the Battalion, which is not insignificant. The combo sounds powerful, but the rest of the Hosts Duplicitous is the other LoC and pure chaff to make it fit. It's not clear until play tested that this kind of list is viable. You could dump a reliable 18 mortal wounds (plus 3 more for Blood Vultures) with 3 Husktusks for a much smaller investment in points anywhere that isn't in the back 2" of the board (they are unlikely to get this far, but you have to deploy 5 wound heroes on the assumption that they can do).

It seems more than likely that destiny dice can be used on the D6 mortal wounds element of spells as a damage roll (see the interview with the person who wrote the Battletome weeks ago). This is different from the bespoke dice rolls that cause a mortal wound, e.g. Curse of Years, Gateway, Snowball (which aren't to wound rolls). This doesn't mean that an FAQ will not come out and say that Damage rolls do not include D3 mortal wounds etc., but it's less than likely.

The reason why they can setup adjacent/within 3" is that it is a setup rule with no further restriction and no possible way of arguing that it's also a move (which assumes that it is even possible for something to be both a set up and a move - the game shouldn't make this possible for the sake of simplicity - see the other thread where I suggested amending the Azyros Warscroll via the FAQ to tack on a 3" restriction to fix the perceived imbalance of the Warrior Brotherhood while keeping the core rules simple). The point has nothing to do with the phase in which the setup occurs (the FAQ answer on page 2, bottom of left column, literally says "even if they are set up in the movement phase", so the phase has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I'm wondering whether Sky Sharks (Screamers) might actually be vaguely cost effective for this purpose (but with bad rend it's a questionable strategy against Sylvaneth and others). They could swap places, move 16" and then attack something (not very hard).

 

[redbeardboss]

i really want screamers to be good!

[Malakithe]

I'm theory crafting a similar list too lol