Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[Xasz]

16 minutes ago, Retro said:

But the other 2 still have keyword everchosen, isn't that all that is needed to determine allegiance?

No, the pitched battle tables double as faction lists now.

Usually a unit has the appropriate keyword as well, but as I read it, the keyword alone is not enough. You have to use the pitched battle profiles as guidance. (at least for allies)

Spoiler

FACTIONS & ALLIES

Pitched Battle profiles are split into a number of factions. For example, Gors and Ungors are part of the BRAYHERDS faction. A model or warscroll battalion’s faction will usually appear as a keyword.

Some factions include a list of allies. For example, the BRAYHERD faction can have Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn and Warherds as allies. In a Pitched Battle, you can spend some of the points for your army on a faction’s allies without changing the army’s allegiance. For example, a BRAYHERD Battlehost could include 400 points of Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn, and/or Warherds, and still have the BRAYHERDS allegiance...

 

[Retro]

Fair call, didn't pick up on that!

[Josh]

hey guys, considering getting into khorne for an efficient tournament list,  anyone fielded the exhalted greater deamon of khorne? or too many points dumped into one model? also big units of letters (murderhost) and see what other big things i can fit in

 

thoughts?

[Retro]

I was just thinking about this some more.

Does this mean that if I want a force with slaves to darkness units with mark of khorne, they take up my allies allowance?

15 hours ago, Xasz said:

No, the pitched battle tables double as faction lists now.

Usually a unit has the appropriate keyword as well, but as I read it, the keyword alone is not enough. You have to use the pitched battle profiles as guidance. (at least for allies)

  Reveal hidden contents

FACTIONS & ALLIES

Pitched Battle profiles are split into a number of factions. For example, Gors and Ungors are part of the BRAYHERDS faction. A model or warscroll battalion’s faction will usually appear as a keyword.

Some factions include a list of allies. For example, the BRAYHERD faction can have Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn and Warherds as allies. In a Pitched Battle, you can spend some of the points for your army on a faction’s allies without changing the army’s allegiance. For example, a BRAYHERD Battlehost could include 400 points of Chaos Gargants, Monsters of Chaos, Thunderscorn, and/or Warherds, and still have the BRAYHERDS allegiance...

 

[Jharen]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

hey guys, considering getting into khorne for an efficient tournament list,  anyone fielded the exhalted greater deamon of khorne? or too many points dumped into one model? also big units of letters (murderhost) and see what other big things i can fit in

 

thoughts?

Big units of bloodletters in a murderhost are always going to be very good, can't go wrong with that really.  The Greater Daemon of Khorne is very very far from what you want in an efficient tournament list though in my opinion, it's just too many points into one big target.  Go with the regular Bloodthirsters if efficiency is important.

[Xasz]

5 hours ago, Retro said:

I was just thinking about this some more.

Does this mean that if I want a force with slaves to darkness units with mark of khorne, they take up my allies allowance?

No, Khorne allegiance still works the same.

They would only be considered allies, if they have no mark or Tzeentch/Nurgle mark.

Think of it like this, you first check for Khorne keyword. If it doesn't have it, the unit might still be added as ally. You then check the Blades of Khorne ally-table, if the appropriate faction is listed.

[Retro]

48 minutes ago, Xasz said:

No, Khorne allegiance still works the same.

They would only be considered allies, if they have no mark or Tzeentch/Nurgle mark.

Think of it like this, you first check for Khorne keyword. If it doesn't have it, the unit might still be added as ally. You then check the Blades of Khorne ally-table, if the appropriate faction is listed.

Sorry, I have to say I don't agree with you.

Keywords work for determining a units army allegiance but not when it is being taken as an ally?

Seems contradictory, it should be either fully one way or the other.

I think the intention is keywords determining allegiance for both allies and overall army

[Xasz]

23 minutes ago, Retro said:

Sorry, I have to say I don't agree with you.

Keywords work for determining a units army allegiance but not when it is being taken as an ally?

Seems contradictory, it should be either fully one way or the other.

I think the intention is keywords determining allegiance for both allies and overall army

It's a bit confusing, but Faction and Allegiance are not the same thing.

Faction is new and only correlates to the pitched battle profiles and ally tables.

Allegiance is the same as before, determines your army allegiance, battleline-if and so on.

If you distinguish between those two, it's a lot clearer.

[Terry Pike]

39 minutes ago, Retro said:

I think the intention is keywords determining allegiance for both allies and overall army

Your allies do not affect your allegiance. This is determined by your main army, your allies are not included when determining which allegiance you are running.

for example, 1600points of Khorne and 400points of anything not Khorne as allies would still mean you are Khorne for Allegiance, Command Traits and Artefacts.

[Jharen]

Xasz is right in my opinion.  Unless there has been specific wording to overhaul this in the GHB2017 (which I shamefully admit I have no managed to pick up yet due to life getting in the way).  But in my opinion GW has made another mess by adding yet more layers to an already overly layered method of doing things and it's becoming a bit complicated.

To give an extreme example...

If I make a list completely out of Slaves to Darkness units but mark them all Khorne, I qualify for Khorne allegiance of course.  But am I Khorne faction?  Or am I Slaves to Darkness Faction?  Do I get to chose which faction I am in this case?  What if that same list I add one model from the Khorne faction list?  Again, I don't have the new book in my hands just yet so I can't look into it myself.

[Terry Pike]

49 minutes ago, Jharen said:

If I make a list completely out of Slaves to Darkness units but mark them all Khorne, I qualify for Khorne allegiance of course.  But am I Khorne faction?  Or am I Slaves to Darkness Faction?

You could pick either as your army meets the criteria to either be slaves to darkness or Blade of Khorne.

[Bowlzee]

Playinga Tzeentch Changehost tomorrow with the following:

 

Quote

Daemon Prince Of Khorne with Axe (160)
- General
- Immense Power
- Mark of Slayer
Bloodsecrator (120)
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Killing Frenzy
Slaughterpriest with Hackblade and Wrathhammer (100)
- Bronzed Flesh
Skarr Bloodwrath (80)
Bloodstoker (80)

10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
- 1x Goreglaives
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
- 1x Goreglaives
40 x Bloodreavers (240)
- Reaver Blades
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
10 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
1 x Chaos Warshrine (180)

Gore Pilgrims (180)

Total: 1920/2000

Looking to have some fun with Skarr, no doubt will be shot of twice :-P

Key will be keeping the Bloodsecrator hidden. Will report back on my findings

[Retro]

1 hour ago, Xasz said:

It's a bit confusing, but Faction and Allegiance are not the same thing.

Faction is new and only correlates to the pitched battle profiles and ally tables.

Allegiance is the same as before, determines your army allegiance, battleline-if and so on.

If you distinguish between those two, it's a lot clearer.

In your earlier quote from ghb17, it seems to use the terms entirely interchangeably 

[Xasz]

2 hours ago, Jharen said:

If I make a list completely out of Slaves to Darkness units but mark them all Khorne, I qualify for Khorne allegiance of course.  But am I Khorne faction?  Or am I Slaves to Darkness Faction?  Do I get to chose which faction I am in this case?  What if that same list I add one model from the Khorne faction list?  Again, I don't have the new book in my hands just yet so I can't look into it myself.

Faction is only related to allies. It's completely separate from allegiances, to make it easier I think.

They have nothing to do with the actual allegiance of your army and the factions are only considered when you plan your allies. (and probably after you determine your allegiance, otherwise you would have to ally khorne marked StD which makes no sense and is surely not intended)

If you are not taking allies, you can pretty much ignore factions.

A little bit more abstract:

Every unit X is part of a Faction Y under which it is listed on the pitched battle profile pages. Furthermore a unit X has a set Z of allegiances in which an element of Z can be equal in name to Y. (e.g. Everchosen)

I think it's pretty clear, the one thing that is debatable/a source of confusion is, if an element of Z equals a faction under which it is not listed on the pitched battle profiles, is it part of both faction sets?

As it stands, I'd go with no. (reason, concept of faction and allegiance would become very vague, maybe playtesters like @Ben have a better understanding)

[Jharen]

Yeah I get the premise of it, but I  see it break down in certain situations like in my example.  If I take a say... 99% Slaves to Darkness list, all marked Khorne, and 1 Bloodsecrator, which Faction am I?  Blades of Khorne and Slaves to Darkness have different allies so it actually really does matter.  Is your Faction based off of all modles in your army being part of it, some of them, at least one of them?  Yes I always qualify for Khorne allegiance with the army, but what determines qualification or classification of Faction?

[Xasz]

1 hour ago, Jharen said:

Yeah I get the premise of it, but I  see it break down in certain situations like in my example.  If I take a say... 99% Slaves to Darkness list, all marked Khorne, and 1 Bloodsecrator, which Faction am I?  Blades of Khorne and Slaves to Darkness have different allies so it actually really does matter.  Is your Faction based off of all modles in your army being part of it, some of them, at least one of them?  Yes I always qualify for Khorne allegiance with the army, but what determines qualification or classification of Faction?

Yeah, I get you now, it's getting weird.

[Retro]

2 hours ago, Jharen said:

Yeah I get the premise of it, but I  see it break down in certain situations like in my example.  If I take a say... 99% Slaves to Darkness list, all marked Khorne, and 1 Bloodsecrator, which Faction am I?  Blades of Khorne and Slaves to Darkness have different allies so it actually really does matter.  Is your Faction based off of all modles in your army being part of it, some of them, at least one of them?  Yes I always qualify for Khorne allegiance with the army, but what determines qualification or classification of Faction?

 I Think we need to move this discussion to the general forum.

get some more opinions/interpretations. Hardly a khorne specific topic haha

either of you guys know how to quote across topics? I haven't posted in forums for close to a decade and I'm a bit rusty

[******]

2 hours ago, Jharen said:

Yeah I get the premise of it, but I  see it break down in certain situations like in my example.  If I take a say... 99% Slaves to Darkness list, all marked Khorne, and 1 Bloodsecrator, which Faction am I?  Blades of Khorne and Slaves to Darkness have different allies so it actually really does matter.  Is your Faction based off of all modles in your army being part of it, some of them, at least one of them?  Yes I always qualify for Khorne allegiance with the army, but what determines qualification or classification of Faction?

Your faction would be Slave to Darkness because that's the pitched battle profile list where you've picked your main army list from.

Bloodsecrator would be from your allies from Blades of Khorne.

You could choose Chaos, Slaves to Darkness, or Khorne (if they are all marked Khorne) as your allegiance

[Bowlzee]

You guys are reading too much into it. Pick your Army as you normally would. THEN IN ADDITION you may take allies which don't break your army. Treat it as a separate pile of points. Hence why they can't be part of your battleline, take any artefacts or be your general.

Your Faction would be whatever you choose it to be.

In the example, you could choose Khorne and have all your models in the faction then ally in whoever Khorne can ally with. OR you could choose Slaves to Darkness as your Faction and Ally in the Bloodsecrator, but he will take up 120 of your 400 points. You would then only be able to take StD or Chaos Allegiance Traits or Artefacts.

[TheOtherJosh]

...Pick your Army as you normally would. THEN IN ADDITION you may take allies which don't break your army. Treat it as a separate pile of points. Hence why they can't be part of your battleline, take any artefacts or be your general.
...

Remember that the points for your allies come out of the same "bucket of points" that the rest of your Army does. (It's not 2000 points plus 400 at Battlehost level ... it's basically an "up to 20% of your Army" value.)

Think of Allies as your "Specialists" or "Mercenaries" and not part of your core force. Which is why they are unable to be used as your battleline or your general.

[misthv]

35 minutes ago, Bowlzee said:

You guys are reading too much into it. Pick your Army as you normally would. THEN IN ADDITION you may take allies which don't break your army. Treat it as a separate pile of points. Hence why they can't be part of your battleline, take any artefacts or be your general.

Sure but I would very much like to know, as a Khorne player, if I can use the amazing anti-horde Gaunt Summoner from DoT faction list (which includes the keyword Everchosen) or if I'm forced to the less potent Gaunt Summoner from the Everchosen faction list (also including the Everchosen keyword). I agree with @Retro that the wording seems to be used interchangeably in the quote previously presented by @Xasz! I'm leaning towards Xasz interpretation for RAI... but RAW I dunno...

[Bowlzee]

Remember that the points for your allies come out of the same "bucket of points" that the rest of your Army does. (It's not 2000 points plus 400 at Battlehost level ... it's basically an "up to 20% of your Army" value.)

Think of Allies as your "Specialists" or "Mercenaries" and not part of your core force. Which is why they are unable to be used as your battleline or your general. [emoji4]

Absolutely! Hope I didn't infer it was extra points! [emoji23]

[Josh]

Hey guys, i still need to get the book to read into items and character builds but this is the core im thinking of;

Leaders
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (330)
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (260)
Bloodthirster Of Unfettered Fury (260)
Bloodmaster, Herald of Khorne (80)
Bloodsecrator (120)
Slaughterpriest (100)

Battleline
30 x Bloodletters (270)
30 x Bloodletters (270)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes

Battalions
Murderhost (120)

Total: 1950/2000

Maybe dropping some reavers for fleshhounds for the unbind and mobility if i can squeeze them in, would love some feedback but basically the aim is an efficient tournament list

[Retro]

12 minutes ago, Josh said:

Hey guys, i still need to get the book to read into items and character builds but this is the core im thinking of;

Leaders
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (330)
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (260)
Bloodthirster Of Unfettered Fury (260)
Bloodmaster, Herald of Khorne (80)
Bloodsecrator (120)
Slaughterpriest (100)

Battleline
30 x Bloodletters (270)
30 x Bloodletters (270)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes

Battalions
Murderhost (120)

Total: 1950/2000

Maybe dropping some reavers for fleshhounds for the unbind and mobility if i can squeeze them in, would love some feedback but basically the aim is an efficient tournament list

I would try and squeeze in gore pilgrims instead of the hounds.

If you drop a thirster and 10 reavers you'll have 380 points to play with. (Slightly more if you drop the wrath)

Slaughter priest, gore pilgrims, 5 blood warriors. Is 380 points

Edit: Just realised your murderhost isn't legal, needs 3-8 bloodletters, hounds, cannons etc.

[Josh]

4 minutes ago, Retro said:

I would try and squeeze in gore pilgrims instead of the hounds.

If you drop a thirster and 10 reavers you'll have 380 points to play with. (Slightly more if you drop the wrath)

Slaughter priest, gore pilgrims, 5 blood warriors. Is 380 points

Edit: Just realised your murderhost isn't legal, needs 3-8 bloodletters, hounds, cannons etc.

haha whoops thats why i wanted hounds >< !! I see the value in GP but i really wanted murderhost and 3 thirsters

I thought letter bombs as well as 3 thirsters would force people to make some interesting choices 

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (330)
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (260)
Bloodthirster Of Unfettered Fury (260)
Bloodmaster, Herald of Khorne (80)
Bloodsecrator (120)
Slaughterpriest (100)

Battleline
30 x Bloodletters (270)
30 x Bloodletters (270)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
- Khorne Daemon Battleline (Karanak General)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes

Battalions
Murderhost (120)

Total: 1980/2000