Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[Brucimus]

8 minutes ago, Xasz said:

Can we stop this "conversation".

At this point, it's not like either side will be convinced without an FAQ or statement from GW.

It's pointless and just clogs up this topic, or at least open a new thread, where you can claw at each other to your heart's content.

Yes please, I'd love to read about tactics, lists, lore and interesting stuff.

The Allegiance topic can be taken elsewhere surely.

[backslide]

i agree but interested too see if I can actually use a godsworn with my khorne army

[******]

ok lets change the conversation then:

Quote

hey guys, remember when that new Blood Tithe points system won the game for me?

Quote

No- who were you playing, was it matched play and which battleplan were you using?

 

[******]

Just now, ****** said:

ok lets change the conversation then:

hey guys, remember when that new Blood Tithe points system won the game for me?

Not really, but I have a 100% better record of using Blood Tithe points than remembering about Unpredicatable Destruction

[backslide]

Blood Tithe did make a difference for me in my 3 games on sunday, not epicly but getting the thirster to charge in the other guys command phase was cool

 

attacking in the hero phase helped kill difficult targets, mangler squigs are hard work

[backslide]

and skullseekers is fun  bloodlords feel like a lot of work, reapers of vengeance are going to be evil in 2.5k

[Aspirant Snaeper]

5 hours ago, ****** said:

thus is the ambigiuty around some of these new rules that one could easily say 'that in this instance, we dont just have two doors open to one sun, its more like having two suns.'

 

 

I meant to solve the ambiguity by looking at it from a fluff perspective, not further argue about ambiguity. 

Khorne hates magic. A Bloodsecrator does not inherently exude power. If the banner was described as empowering, then I could understand. Instead, the banner opens a portal to Khorne's domain, which in turn affects all those within the radius of the portal to become emboldened by that rage 

Another portal being opened leads to the same place. There is not more than one Khorne or more than one realm of Khorne.  Thus, by being within the portal you are affected by the Rage of Khorne and may add 1 to your attack. Rage of Khorne is not directly tied to the Totem, rather the gateway that the totem opens.

If the wording suggested a unit added 1 attack for being near a Bloodsecrator, then I'd say it stacks. But the attack comes from being affected by Rage of Khorne by way of being within the Portal of Skulls. 

Interesting how I don't see anyone arguing whether or not Khorne units are super-immune to Battleshock if they're in range of two Bloodsecrator's. 

They really do need to clarify, but to me the fluff of the ability fills in the blanks.

And fielding two Bloodsecrator's is still beneficial if you have Bloodreaver's, who would then benefit from being near both of them and need to be near them more than any other Khorne unit anyways. 

[Killax]

@Aspirant Snaeper

I don't think that's really all there is too it, if you want to argue lore. Khorne's Domain is filled with his power. Opening one gate to that domain will give you a stream of that power, raw Khorne energy. Opening multiple gates to that domain logically will give you an increased stream of that power.

Imagne you open a hole into a tub filled with water. One hole poors out a constant stream of water. Two holes poor out more water by comparison. 
If the quantity of that water is compairable to the energy of Khorne following from his domain into another logic would dictate that more holes poor down more power.

However the lore aspect of this is largely irrelevant for competative and structured play. I think the discussion simply said can go both ways. So for the case of Rage of Khorne I really can't say it cannot stack because it does not state that it cannot stack. (As before).

Also keep in mind that by comparison the change in wording is minimal. This is the only change:
Old: . When they attack, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all melee weapons used by these units.
New: When they attack, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all melee weapons used by units affected by the Rage of Khorne.

What I hope/believe will happen is that Generals Handbook V.2.0. will have stated that units can only be under the effect of an ability with the same name once. However this is currently not the case with Generals Handbook V.1.1.

[Brucimus]

1 hour ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

And fielding two Bloodsecrator's is still beneficial if you have Bloodreaver's, who would then benefit from being near both of them and need to be near them more than any other Khorne unit anyways. 

Bloodreavers only benefit from one regarding totem keyword. As it increases their attacks from 1 to 2

[Aspirant Snaeper]

53 minutes ago, Brucimus said:

Bloodreavers only benefit from one regarding totem keyword. As it increases their attacks from 1 to 2

That it is. I don't know why I thought different. 

@Killax Using your interpretation, you are not getting hotter or colder water by opening the second faucet. You are getting the same water, just twice the amount. When the water from one faucet meets the water from the other, they become indistinguishable. They do not suddenly start to boil, they do not suddenly start to freeze, the water becomes one because it came from the same source. 

I.e. If you have two Bloodsecrators positioned 17" away from each other, you have a far, far greater area of effect for their ability. More access to that water. 

[Killax]

15 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

 

@Killax Using your interpretation, you are not getting hotter or colder water by opening the second faucet. You are getting the same water, just twice the amount. When the water from one faucet meets the water from the other, they become indistinguishable. They do not suddenly start to boil, they do not suddenly start to freeze, the water becomes one because it came from the same source. 

I.e. If you have two Bloodsecrators positioned 17" away from each other, you have a far, far greater area of effect for their ability. More access to that water. 

The thing remains, it's not about hotter or colder water but instead the ammount. Rage of Khorne still states to add attacks, not to set it to another digit or have 1 more (such as is the case for Wrathmongers). 

We currently have different types of wording, each case has a different outcome:

Rage of Khorne says: add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all melee weapons used by units affected by the Rage of Khorne.
Slaughter Incarnate says: add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all melee weapons used by MORTAL KHORNE units in your army while they are within 6" of this model.
Frenzied Devotions says: : If this unit is within 12" of a CHAOS TOTEM from your army when it is selected to attack, then all models in this unit make 2 attacks rather than 1, and the Chieftain makes 3 attacks rather than 2.
Crimson Haze says: : All models (friend or foe) within 3" of a Wrathmonger in the combat phase are overcome with a murder-frenzy and make 1 more attack with each of their melee weapons. This does not affect Wrathmongers, who are already in this state of blood-lust.

Conclusion for me:
Rage of Khorne adds 1 to the Attack char for all Khorne units within range
Slaughter Incarnate adds 1 to the Attack char for all Khorne Mortal units within range
Frenzied Devotion changes the Attack char from 1 to 2 for all Bloodreaver units within range
Crimson Haze changes the Attack char to 1 more for all models within range

So as far as it is written, the first two stack, the second two don't. 

 

[Gilby]

13 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

That it is. I don't know why I thought different. 

@Killax Using your interpretation, you are not getting hotter or colder water by opening the second faucet. You are getting the same water, just twice the amount. When the water from one faucet meets the water from the other, they become indistinguishable. They do not suddenly start to boil, they do not suddenly start to freeze, the water becomes one because it came from the same source. 

I.e. If you have two Bloodsecrators positioned 17" away from each other, you have a far, far greater area of effect for their ability. More access to that water. 

I intend to play the Bloodsecrators ability as not stacking as I adhere to the same thought process as you regarding it being an ON/OFF effect (after all the rules changed to say that units affected by Rage of Khorne get +1 attacks rather than units in range get +1 attacks).

It is also in some tournament packs that abilities of the same name don't stack (see SCGT).

 

However, it is actually in the rules errata that they DO stack unless stated otherwise. End of page 5 rules errata:

Q: Are the effects of multiple duplicate spells and abilities stackable against the target?

A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.

 

You could argue that the wording is trying to state otherwise, but does that count as SPECIFICALLY stating as the rules say? It has room for interpretation given the rules themselves and the wording of the warscroll. Them changing it to make it sound more like it doesn't stack and whether this counts as stating otherwise or not.

But I think the general opinion and rumors seems to be the GHB2 will stop them stacking and with tournament packs saying that it seems to be the opinion that it is the more balanced way to play. If you want to stack it them be prepared for an opponent to argue that netters -1 to hit and Abattoir's models within 3" of an Abattoir model suffer a mortal wound on a 6 in the hero phase stack. Suddenly Skarbrand is rolling 30 dice taking mortal wounds on a 6 from all those ghouls around him and your Bloodletters are -10 to hit and miss every one of their 4 attacks each anyway.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

@Killax

"Am I within 6" of this model?"

Yes: You gain an additional attack.

"Am I within 12" of a Chaos Totem?"

Yes: You may make 2 attacks instead of 1.

"Am I within 3" of a Wrathmonger?"

Yes: You may make 1 more attack with your melee weapons

"Am I affected by Rage of Khorne?"

Yes: You gain an additional attack. 

 

When you are within a Portal of Skulls, you are affected by Rage of Khorne, when you are affected by Rage of Khorne, you gain an additional attack. Rage of Khorne is not, in and of itself, the ability granting you an additional attack. It is a qualifier that you can then use to gain an additional attack. Rage of Khorne is also linked to Battleshock and therefor not explicitly an ability that boosts your attack profile.  Rage of Khorne is water. It doesn't matter if you hop into a bathtub, a pond, a lake or an ocean, you get the same amount of wet each time. 

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

"Am I within 6" of this model?"

Yes: You gain an additional attack.

"Am I within 12" of a Chaos Totem?"

Yes: You may make 2 attacks instead of 1.

"Am I within 3" of a Wrathmonger?"

Yes: You may make 1 more attack with your melee weapons

"Am I affected by Rage of Khorne?"

Yes: You gain an additional attack. 

This is where confusion comes from.

Rage of Khorne does not say you gain an additional attack.
Rage of Khorne does say: When they attack, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all melee weapons used by units affected by the Rage of Khorne. 

As before adding 1 is different from changing 1 to 2 or having 1 more.

Apple example:
I have 1 apple, I add 1, I add 1, I have 3. <- There is nothing that prefents you from adding 1 multiple times with Rage of Khorne as the result of this ability. 
I have 1 apple, change that to 2, I have 2. <- There is something that prefents you from changing to more than 2 as the result of this ability.. 
I have 1 apple, gain one more, I have 2. <- There is something that prefents you from gaining more than 1 as the result of this ability. 

Now do I think that Rage of Khorne and all same name abilities should only be allowed to stack once, YES. But that isn't a written rule as we speak.
 

[Kaleb Daark]

...and until GW FAQ / errata it, does this mean we're going to blow another three pages on is it / isn't it?

RAW / RAI / CFD / KFC, none of you know for sure, so lets just agree to disagree and if it bugs you that much, like the allegiance debate put it on a thread of its own.

... please.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

3 minutes ago, Killax said:

This is where confusion comes from.

The confusion comes when one person focuses on the answer, and the other focuses on the question. As far as I can tell, Rage of Khorne in and of itself does not stack, so it doesn't matter how or what is written afterwards. 

If Rage of Khorne lost the ability to modify attacks and only served as a Battleshock nullify-er, we would all accept that anyone affected by it would be immune to Battleshock and that would be that, wouldn't we?

5 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

...and until GW FAQ / errata it, does this mean we're going to blow another three pages on is it / isn't it?

RAW / RAI / CFD / KFC, none of you know for sure, so lets just agree to disagree and if it bugs you that much, like the allegiance debate put it on a thread of its own.

... please.

 A respectable plea and one I can certainly understand, but we're on topic so I don't see the problem.  If it makes you feel better, I'm about to go to sleep. 

[Killax]

Just now, Aspirant Snaeper said:

The confusion comes when one person focuses on the answer, and the other focuses on the question. As far as I can tell, Rage of Khorne in and of itself does not stack, so it doesn't matter how or what is written afterwards. 

As before, the wording didn't change to it saying it does not stack. Rage of Khorne did stack before, under current wording it stil does unless there is a FAQ for it OR Generals Handbook V2.0. will explicitly state same name abilities do not stack. 

You can find your sources here:

 
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660626.page 

You are free to use any House Rule against it but as written there remains nothing that prefents you from stacking the bonus from Rage of Khorne.

[Kaleb Daark]

Just now, Aspirant Snaeper said:

The confusion comes when one person focuses on the answer, and the other focuses on the question. As far as I can tell, Rage of Khorne in and of itself does not stack, so it doesn't matter how or what is written afterwards. 

If Rage of Khorne lost the ability to modify attacks and only served as a Battleshock nullify-er, we would all accept that anyone affected by it would be immune to Battleshock and that would be that, wouldn't we?

 A respectable plea and one I can certainly understand, but we're on topic so I don't see the problem.  If it makes you feel better, I'm about to go to sleep. 

nope, you fill your boots, its merely that I can see this one dragging on for pages and pages - and ultimately its for GW to clarify.

So all KHORNE units will be blessed with "rage of khorne" when a portal of skulls is opened. we all agree on that.

So our debate is whether each model opening a portal of skulls which adds +1 attack because - rage, blood god, blah anger blah

and therefore, each additional portal adds an additional attack  - because rage +1 due to even more rage, blood god, blah anger blah

... very skarbrand-esque...

or...

that, Rage of Khorne is a one hitter where were it old fantasy, where you would have "rage of Khorne" as a benefit under "mark of khorne" , and wording such as

"all units with mark of Khorne also are subject to Rage of Khorne"

"Rage of Khorne - When a portal of skulls is opened all units with this keyword gain +1A.  Multiple portals do not add additional attacks."

One can argue that perhaps this is the case, and that is why the gore pilgrim battalion exists, because in it's case,  we trade extra attack for area of effect.

I'm in the camp where the effect stacks, because khorne, rage piled upon rage, skaarbrand, blah blah. but definitely one for the FAQ.

 

 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

24 minutes ago, Killax said:

As before, the wording didn't change to it saying it does not stack. Rage of Khorne did stack before, under current wording it stil does unless there is a FAQ for it OR Generals Handbook V2.0. will explicitly state same name abilities do not stack. 

You can find your sources here:

 
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660626.page 

You are free to use any House Rule against it but as written there remains nothing that prefents you from stacking the bonus from Rage of Khorne.

As Kaleb said earlier, I'm going to agree to disagree and will wait for the FAQ to say that it still stacks or not. Until then, I interpret the newly re-worded rule as an a suggestion from GW that it no longer stacks. 

Those are not my sources, by the way. They are yours and they are based on the old wording which suggested to me that it did stack. The new wording suggests to me that it doesnt. 

I am of the hope that it will stack, but I am a realist and a lover of the intricacies of the English language. 

The old rule asked "Are you within 18" while the portal is open?"

The new rule asks "Are you affected by Rage of Khorne?"

That to me is the difference. 

[kaintxu]

7 hours ago, Bowlzee said:

 

Where does this come from? I posted a picture from the book that proved this wrong. Where in the rules are you getting this?

 

I will post it again.

 

 

 

 

 

The battalion can be part of the allegiance, but it still does not get the keyword. This means that brass stampede can be part of a Khorne Bloodbound allegiance, but for a gore tide battalion, it stills just counts as a khorne battalion thus not being able to be picked by itself as a khorne bloodbound battalion, and if you add it, you need to add 2 others from the list.

On the stacking attacks topic, it is not clear, so please just leave it for GW to FAQ.

Anyway guys, can you take that conversation to the rules forum, and leave this for tactics? You have derailed from the topic by far. Please just stop arguing this here as this should be to talk Khorne, not rules.

 

cheers,

[Killax]

@kaintxu exact. The wording is clear. Khorne Battalions can be used for Khorne Daemon Allegiance and Khorne Bloodbound Allegiance but Khorne Battalion keywords do not change, even if they are completely made up by Khorne Daemon models or Khorne Bloodbound models.  As before, there are still a few Khorne Bloodbound Battalions left, but Brass Stampede isn't one of them.

@Aspirant SnaeperThe prime thing about Rage of Khorne is that it specifically does not state that it wouldn't be able to stack. There is nothing prefenting you to recieve multiple bonusses. There is in other abilities, Rage of Khorne just isn't one of them, not even under the new wording. 

Both rules asked if you are within 18", by doing so both rules allow you to be under the effect of Rage of Khorne.
The new wording merely changed 'used by these units' to 'used by units affected by Rage of Khorne'. Nothing is added for adding +1 to the attack char. Nothing is added that suggesst you can only have the bonus generated out of Rage of Khorne once. 

In addition you can have multiple Warshrine's near Bloodreavers, it's just that after the first one the Frenzied Devotion doesn't add anything (more). 

In addition you can have multiple Wrathmongers near Bloodreavers, it's just that after the first Wrathmonger the Crimson Haze doesn't add anything (more).

[Jharen]

So to change the subject onto something else...

Blood Tithe Table #7 allows your Khorne models to pile in and attack when they die.  First off... this is a very nasty ability if timed properly.  It gets even nastier with Skarbrand on the table because it states to use lowest line on their damage table if they have one.

But how are we seeing this work with Bloodwarriors who already have a similar ability?  Do they pile in and attack twice before dying?  Do you only use one or the other?  I suspect this is just another one of those things that's going to require an FAQ to be resolved due to the model being slain during the sequence but thought I'd mention it.

[Gilby]

Just house rule that spells, effects and abilities of the same name don't stack. It'll save you a lot of headaches trying to figure out the vague and subjective wordings. If it's this much of a struggle with the army you're playing with how long will you spend asking to look at your opponents rules and debating the wording with them during a game. It's much clearer, easier to figure out on the fly and it'll probably be in General Handbook 2 anyway so you won't spend the next couple of months building, painting and playing an army that suddenly gets nerfed and makes you feel cheated.

 

On a different note, what are people thoughts on Blood Tithe strategies? Is there one that is more worth it than others? Which ones are useless? Would dropping 30 letters down after 8 units are destroyed be any good or will the game be over? What about the one giving you a chance to attack with every model before it leaves the battlefield? Is it too expensive, will people just not hit back for a turn and run away or would that secure you victory? Is using muderlust to move your bloodsecrator forward in the hero phase a waste of bloodtithe points? Brass Skull Meteor seems a bit expensive, no?

[Gilby]

2 minutes ago, Jharen said:

So to change the subject onto something else...

Blood Tithe Table #7 allows your Khorne models to pile in and attack when they die.  First off... this is a very nasty ability if timed properly.  It gets even nastier with Skarbrand on the table because it states to use lowest line on their damage table if they have one.

But how are we seeing this work with Bloodwarriors who already have a similar ability?  Do they pile in and attack twice before dying?  Do you only use one or the other?  I suspect this is just another one of those things that's going to require an FAQ to be resolved due to the model being slain during the sequence but thought I'd mention it.

Different ability name so you'd get to pile in and attack and then pile in and attack again? Both say before removing it, not do it and then remove it so you're just doing all the things it is allowed to before it's removed. Maybe?

[Jharen]

Well so far I've been playing it as piling in and attacking twice, BUT that was against a player who is very level headed and cool about this type of thing.  We discussed it when it came up and both sort of came to the same conclusion on the spot in a quick read.   So it's not that it's hindering me personally (I'm okay with it being either way) I just am curious as to how others would read it so that I can form a better decision.  Also wanted others to have a heads up of it coming up in their games.

 

As to your other topic on Blood Tithe strategies...  so many.  I don't think their power is in setting up a pre-game strategy for them so much as to control the combat as the game progresses.  Certainly there is some ability to map out a plan of attack with building them up etc, but that's going to work more against you if you or your opponent aren't killing enough stuff.

1 Blood tithe is nice because you can get off command abilities you only need to use once per game, like charging bonuses, run and charge abilities etc.  This is easy to do 1st turn with a Blood Sacrifice prayer to gain a first turn tithe.  Of course if you're running large multi wound models (lots of Juggernauts, Cannons, etc) the healing one can really shine for you when coupled with the slaughterpriests ability to heal d3 as well with their prayers.  Really so far I just use them as I need them at key moments in the battle without trying to nail myself down too much to a preset plan.   I'll note that it's really not difficult to wrack these tithes up though, especially if you're building to do so.  I gained 16 in one game without much effort.