Iron & Ard Fist!

[Dream]

I've been using this locally and was wondering what the wider TGA community thought of this competitive list using both the Ironfist and the Ardfist battalions in a pure Ironjaws list.

Mawkrusha 520 (Warlord, ravager, brew)

Megaboss   140 (brew)

Chanta x 2   160 (One is in the ardfist formation gets the 4+ward save)

Brutes x 5    180 (1handers, Big Boss usually in here)

Brutes x 5    180 (2handers, goes behind a unit or ardboys somewhere)

Gruntas x 3  180 (1"weps)

Ardboys x 10 180 (rending)

Ardboys x 10 180 (rending)

Ardboys x 10 180 (rending)

Ardfist            40
Ironfist           60

Total               2000



       I had been running a list that was just one big ironfist but I kept getting wrecked by alpha strikes(shooting, drop rets) and/or losing attrition battles to other fighty armies(khornebb, death).  Overall I was doing quite well with the big ironfist list but it had some bad match ups and I wanted to keep playing pure badass orks so I came up with this list.  So far its worked quite well.  It plays pretty much like any other ironjaws list, hammer them down asap, but there is one exception. With the ardfist you can afford to sacrifice some of your ardboys in the first couple of turns as long as you can keep the chanter alive or hidden and somewhat centrally located.  Even tho I dont get the extra d6 move ardboys are still quite speedy with their +2 to run.  In fact, they are fast enough to get on objectives turn one and be ready to absorb a nasty charge, I often place the 2" brutes behind them for extra charge absorbing effectiveness.  The ardboys can then be ready to slog back onto the board turn 3 or 4 and help secure the back line or run and plug up any holes.  Its been pretty nasty!  Also I love being able to be very reckless with some units as long as I'm conservative with others, namely that one special war chanta.

Only change I would make after the few games I've played is swapping out the gruntas(they are always underwhelming) for a third unit of brutes. The extra mobility is nice, but its overkill for the sacrafice in damage output. Just having a 3rd claw and brute smasha would be nice.

Anyways let me know what you all think. Thanks!

[Fastbear]

Ardfist doesn't work like that in pitched battles sadly, you have to have Ardboyz in a reserved summoning pool to get them reinforced I think. And that completely defeats the purpose.

[Dream]

Thats not how its played, around here at least, cause its techically healing a unit back to full strength. You can never have more than 2k points on the board with this formation.  Its more like the nurgle tallyband or the flesheater stuff,  which heals up units.  

[LortOlle]

Yea, the ardfist is nice in non-matched play but it defeats the purpose of having the ardboys return if you have to save points for them. It's a lot botter to just start with more on the board.

 

Nice avatar though

[LortOlle]

24 minutes ago, Dream said:

Thats not how its played, around here at least, cause its techically healing a unit back to full strength. You can never have more than 2k points on the board with this formation.  Its more like the nurgle tallyband or the flesheater stuff,  which heals up units.  

It's not healing a unit, it's replacing and that needs reserve points in matched play.

Edit rules quote:

"Sometimes a spell or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed. In a Pitched Battle, you must set aside some of your points in order to be able to use these units."

The rules are pretty clear imo.

 

[Dez]

Yup, sorry...Ardfist is useless in matched play. I think it SHOULD be available in Matched Play, how hard is it to kill a Warchanter nahmean?

[Anaticula]

12 minutes ago, Dez said:

Yup, sorry...Ardfist is useless in matched play. I think it SHOULD be available in Matched Play, how hard is it to kill a Warchanter nahmean?

I agree. And also, so far in my experience Ardboyz unit don't get killed off until turn four - reinforcements would come in very late. So it's not op.

[Dream]

well i guess im just a big cheating ork

[Dream]

why did they bother to give it points then??? This is such a let down, I just finished painting my army and Ive already used it a few events feels bad man.

[Dream]

53 minutes ago, Dez said:

Yup, sorry...Ardfist is useless in matched play. I think it SHOULD be available in Matched Play, how hard is it to kill a Warchanter nahmean?

Yea I was putting the talisman on him so he didnt get sniped by Warp lightning or a venator. But now im sad Seems really lame.  Flesheaters and death seem even more ridiculous now, a guy around here runs 4 blocks of skeles, getting 4d6 back in one turn, yet I cant get some ardboys to walk in off the back board edge. 

Welp, guess its back to running the big ironfist that everybody else plays
 

[Nico]

Quote

Yea I was putting the talisman on him so he didnt get sniped by Warp lightning or a venator. But now im sad  Seems really lame.  Flesheaters and death seem even more ridiculous now, a guy around here runs 4 blocks of skeles, getting 4d6 back in one turn, yet I cant get some ardboys to walk in off the back board edge. 

Admittedly Death are good against melee armies like Ironjawz because you don't have any shooting so focus firing to take out an entire unit in one turn is more difficult. Nevertheless, Death have got loads of weaknesses (like having no credible ranged attacks other than the Tomb King Catapult). That said those Skellies are normal 4+ move infantry that routinely do a first turn 24 inch alpha strike right?

There are so many strong lists for Destruction right now - sadly none of them are pure Ironjawz. After seeing Blood & Glory, Destruction are probably pipping Order to the top Grand Alliance at the moment. Although I do think this would change if Stormcast players were more keen to introduce other Order units into their lists (or vice versa). The biggest change Ironjawz need is to have Ardboyz as inherent Battleline, then Ironjawz would be a good complement to or even core of a mixed Destruction army. Gordrakk and the Cabbage need to come down in cost as well and the Pigs. 

I'm considering whether to buy (more) Ironjawz models and use them as better looking Greenskinz because frankly they are better than Ironjawz in matched play - higher model count (which also helps with Battleshock), significantly better synergies, equivalent movement (or possibly better by a few inches); and an undercosted Wyvern with a rerollable 4+ save (with either a 4+ ward or Battlebrew), better value wizard (or just take a 60 point Grot Shaman and hope for arcane terrain to cast mystic shield). My only concern is if the Greenskinz Big Mob is removed from the Handbook without being replaced by an updated version or a new Book- it's odd when Tamurkhan's Horde and Legion of Azgorth are (relatively) future proof armies (e.g. Shar'tor the Executioner) but regular Orruks are not - even after they released a Greenskinz start collecting box, which presumably some people bought.

Similarly, with players of comparable skill, Grots are going to stomp all over Ironjawz 9 days out of 10 - better synergies (if they cast Sneaky Stabbing on a unit of 60 Gitmob Grots - they've probably won the game against Ironjawz), higher model count for scenarios, more resistant to battleshock, artillery to force Battleshock tests on units of Brutes or take out Warchanters and above all else - Fanatics to block multiple units charging. Also they can easily rent a Stonelord/Huskard on Thundertusk for Three Places of Power, which Ironjawz will struggle to deal with anyway. Thundertusks melting 2 Brutes per turn plus Battleshock while you wait for them to run out of Fanatics to block your charges.... Not to mention this thing called the Monstrous Arcanum, which has some really fun toys that you are shutting yourself out of if you run Ironjawz (due to Ardboyz not being inherent Battleline as discussed).

[Tizianolol]

A big block of 40 skeletons can rise only d6 skeletons per turn..not 4 d6!! Anyway they got tons of attacks and u have no ranged unit.. 

About 3 gruntas..i prefer 5 brutes..gruntas seems good 6 with 2" weapon..with big boss into.

3 gonna die too fast imo;)

[Dream]

5 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

A big block of 40 skeletons can rise only d6 skeletons per turn..not 4 d6!! Anyway they got tons of attacks and u have no ranged unit.. 

About 3 gruntas..i prefer 5 brutes..gruntas seems good 6 with 2" weapon..with big boss into.

3 gonna die too fast imo;)

He has 4 units of 20.  But yea the gruntas need a boss character with a special wep(a la brutes) otherwise they just aren't worth the points.

[Lord Biscuit]

But then the issue would be "if Goregrunters are fighty as brutes with better leadership, why bother takin' them?"

Though to be fair, I think one special weapon of some description wouldn't hurt, the grunters themselves a little hit and miss and the 10 fairly accurate rend 1 attacks is alright. So a special weapon wouldn't be too bad since Brutes get 2 per 5 man unit and get a bit of a better boost from boss buffs. Just for their point, they have the best wound to bravery ratio in this army and have more reliable speed; a touch deminished considering Ironjawz are generally very fast, but they 9 inch + buff movement makes them more independantly quick if they leave hero range.

[LortOlle]

I just think that if you remove the requirement that you have to actually charge 8"+ for the d3 wounds to take effect. You just make it "if you roll 8 or more inches for a charge, the gore-gruntas gains d3 damage on their maw and hooves attacks".  This will make it similar to the old ogre impact hits in 8th. You could then still stand 3" of but gain the ability if you roll high. As it is now you have to stand more than 8 away from ANY enemy and roll high. You'll never risk that.

This could combo with stuff like Azhag that increases the charge roll making it succeed on a 7+ or just warchanter that makes the pigs hit on 3+ for more damage. This could make them a decent alpha strike flanker. Because you are so fast you can get around and attack from the sides making it hard for the enemy to pile in with more than a few models. 

6 pigs with a chanter buff would do 26 wounds before saves (10 of them rend -1) up from the 18 they do without the charge bonus.

[gnaleinad]

4 hours ago, LortOlle said:

6 pigs with a chanter buff would do 26 wounds before saves (10 of them rend -1) up from the 18 they do without the charge bonus.

That's not very likely. The Gore Gruntas have big base. A unit of 6 will have a hard time getting all to go in.
Think about it. Gordrakk ability to allow all units in a battalion to charge 3D6" is exactly what is needed.

In a competitive sense, all Ironjawz are not great because of all the cheaper cheese out there. Once the new army of Duardin and Aelves surfaces(plus who knows what else), plus all the new allegiances come out there will be greater balancing for match play.

Ironjaws need their dedicated allegiances abilities..
We should brainstorm some ideas to give GW.. 

[Nico]

Quote

In a competitive sense, all Ironjawz are not great because of all the cheaper cheese out there. Once the new army of Duardin and Aelves surfaces(plus who knows what else), plus all the new allegiances come out there will be greater balancing for match play.

Ironjaws need their dedicated allegiances abilities..
We should brainstorm some ideas to give GW.. 

Edited 40 minutes ago by gnaleinad

Some kind of shock horror defensive trait/artefact, e.g. a -1 to hit any of your units within 15 inches of a hero with shooting (probably doesn't stack with itself). A (fairly hard to cast) spell that only wrecks large units of chaff, e.g. does 1 regular wound per model with no rend but the target unit can reroll its saves against this attack - so a 5+/6+ save horde dies, but a 3+/4+ save unit with low model count is only dented). Or where the damage grows "exponentially" as the unit size increases, 1 wound mortal wound for 10 or fewer models, D3 mortal wounds for 11-20 models, 4 D6 mortal wounds for 21-30 models, 7 D6 mortal wounds for 31-40 models and 12 D6 for 41 or more models. This sounds much deadlier than it actually is, it's actually not much better than the new Gaunt Summoner's spell, which is rarely seen in game.

Ardboyz to generic battleline, Pigs 20 points cheaper, Wizard cheaper, Cabbage and Gordrakk cheaper and an allegiance pack and Ironjawz will be just under top tier (as per @scrubyandwells thread; and with mixed Destruction units brought in = top tier.

[Lord Biscuit]

Aye, Ironjaws currently don't have any defensive tricks or shooting which makes them deceivingly one dimensional compared to other armies; the lack of shooting means that Ironjawz cannot remove units clinging on with one or two models which I imagine is a really huge hindrance. I mean these fellows are meant to be the most disciplined warmongers as far as destruction races were seen in the old fluff; though apparently brutes regressed as far as tactical sense is concerned. I would like to see a more accurate representation of this brutal militistic kunning other then floor it.

 

[Dream]

6 hours ago, Lord Biscuit said:

Aye, Ironjaws currently don't have any defensive tricks or shooting which makes them deceivingly one dimensional compared to other armies; the lack of shooting means that Ironjawz cannot remove units clinging on with one or two models which I imagine is a really huge hindrance. I mean these fellows are meant to be the most disciplined warmongers as far as destruction races were seen in the old fluff; though apparently brutes regressed as far as tactical sense is concerned. I would like to see a more accurate representation of this brutal militistic kunning other then floor it.

 

Ive gotten lucky in the last few weeks in lining up my mawcrusha to crush(hehe) those few remaining models with his destructive bulk. The only time ive ever beaten khorn bb in a 1500pt+ game was when my mawcrusha got 4 charges off in one turn! lol But yea other than lucky d-bulk roles finishing off units is very time consuming for this army. If ardboys went to general battle line(the are practically the same as chaos warriors) I think that that would solve all their issues.