Sylvaneth and the double turn

[Gengis137]

Hi everyone 

If you play Sylvaneth (or against them) you must have notice how useful it can be to always choose who will have the first turn (for the ones who don't see what I'm talking about remember that you can deploy an entire batalion at once and that the wargroves can contain your entire army if you wish so..  ), and I myself have been using it a lot.

But now that I'm starting to handle my troops in a more strategical way, I'm considering how to use well the initiative, which leads to considering the double turns too.

That said, I have to say that I haven't tested all the options yet so I'm relying on everyone willing to share their strats/habits to make the forest win

I think that it can be useful to divide each early, middle and end gamés double effects and how to use it when we got to choose it.

 

[Nico]

It's a good topic. Conventionally people would let the opponent go first so that you could get a double turn, which is helpful when a lot of Sylvaneth mobility is dependent on making 9 inch charges, so if you fail the first one, with a 50% chance of a double turn, that's less bad.

Having played against them more and done an absurd amount of listbuilding (see the main Sylvaneth thread), it's more complicated than that. Firstly - Sylvaneth can do some strong (I still wouldn't say top tier) alpha strikes using either Dreadwood Wargrove or the Free Spirits formation. It is usually helpful to do these by taking the first turn (mandatory for Dreadwood), so that you can attack before mystic shield or any other buffs are in play.

The other point is that Sylvaneth can have difficulty getting enough Wyldwoods on the board if they don't go first. It's surprisingly hard to get additional ones down otherwise, especially against horde armies. 

[Gengis137]

So I'll start with the way I use first turn myself: I always choose to take it; it allows me to have the more space available to put my forest with the faine on the greatest area, and then to basically alpha strike drycha and bomb her squirm-thing devastating shot as she's full health and the opponent didn't have the chance to cast exalting presence(?) so it's basically a one shot for big units.

Now I'm wondering: does this kind of thinking is valid for a durthu which you don't want to lose fast and for which the damages took really lows the damage output? Is it better to play second with a durthu alpha strike?

[Nico]

I agree that if you're doing the Drycha Squirmling bomb, then you want to go first, otherwise your opponent could chip off too many wounds.

However, if you're using Durthu alpha strike, then you have the Free Spirits formation and so you can keep him safe off the table, then use the Free Spirits rule to bring him onto the table during the hero phase (using Forest Spirits), then move, then charge. The only downside is that you're constrained by the presence of Wyldwoods and being 9 from the enemy when you drop. Unless you think your opponent will flood the Wyldwood or the space where you otherwise plan to place a Wyldwood, then I would let the opponent go first and hope you get 2 turns of Durthu activating first with healing on him in between.

[Gengis137]

Thank you for the insights I will definitely take this when I'll start playing him
Yeah I do have a friend playing Slaanesh who can deny space very quickly
And how would you deal with initiative in middle and end game ?


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[Nico]

If you win it later on you almost always take the turn, unless there's a weird situation objective wise, where for example you want to grab something in the last turn of the game.

[Gengis137]

Couldn't it be sometimes better to give it to avoid double turn? Because sylvaneth usually don't appreciate it


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[Undead4Life]

I was under the impression that you still had to "deploy" units to reserves -- war grove, chameleon skinks, tomb scorpions -- one at a time, such that if you still had a more units (outside of battalions) overall your opponent would still be able to put deploy you.

[Aezeal]

But your whole army fits into a battalion, so it stays one drop.

[Siegfried VII]

16 hours ago, Nico said:

However, if you're using Durthu alpha strike, then you have the Free Spirits formation and so you can keep him safe off the table, then use the Free Spirits rule to bring him onto the table during the hero phase (using Forest Spirits), then move, then charge. The only downside is that you're constrained by the presence of Wyldwoods and being 9 from the enemy when you drop. Unless you think your opponent will flood the Wyldwood or the space where you otherwise plan to place a Wyldwood, then I would let the opponent go first and hope you get 2 turns of Durthu activating first with healing on him in between.

 

You cannot do this. The forest spirits rule says that you can bring the units in your movement phase. The free spirits ability says that in the hero phase you can move units in the battalion as if it was the movement phase.

The thing is though that you are still in the hero phase, so you cannot use the forest spirits rule.

[Nico]

Yes you can. There's a deemed movement phase so you can do anything that you could normally do in the movement phase, which includes the Forest Spirits rule.

There are tonnes of rules like this - deemed combat phases in hero phases where you pile in and attack etc.. All the rules that normally kick in for such phases would apply.

 

[Siegfried VII]

Yes but the forest spirit rule says that you must be in the movement phase.  With free spirits you are able to move as if it was your movement phase but it happens in the hero phase. The forest spirit rule triggers in the movement phase.

I can see your train of thought here (and as I own Sylvaneth too would love to implement the rule in such a way) but it is certainly not clear and unless there is a faq that adresses a similar situation in my opinion you must at least discuss it with your opponent before the battle...

[Gengis137]

I think with Nico that what's imply here is that the deployment in the forest is counted as a movement (hence the movement phase) and the purpose of the free spirits rules is to give us an additional move, and as such allows you to do any movement including deployment.


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[Nico]

Quote

Yes but the forest spirit rule says that you must be in the movement phase.  

Why are you failing to acknowledge "as though it were the movement phase" - it's an extra deemed movement phase in the hero phase so it is exactly the same as if it was during the movement phase.

[Gengis137]

About that I have a question:do you think we can travel through the woods (teleport) with the this ability as far as we're get closer to the target?


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[Tommm]

The thing I don't get is why you'd bother - unless you need to move in the Hero phase to get back in range for a spell/ability. You're still going to be subject to the Spirit Path Table ruling of 2-5 which won't let you move anyway. 

So maybe this'll need spelling out, but this is wooly at best and I've already ran it past the local group who don't think it works either.

[Gengis137]

Well could teleport 9" away in the hero phase, and get closer in the usual movement phase to be sure to succeed in your charge phase


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[Siegfried VII]

On 4/11/2016 at 0:42 PM, Nico said:

Why are you failing to acknowledge "as though it were the movement phase" - it's an extra deemed movement phase in the hero phase so it is exactly the same as if it was during the movement phase.

The way I see it, it is a move that happens in the hero phase and the part "as though it were the movement phase" is meant to  tell us excactly how this move is going to be performed and what limitations will apply to it.

So if it happens in the hero phase it cannot happen at the same time as the movement phase and as the forest spirit ability says that it happens in the movement phase they cannot be combined.

Again I see your point of view but it is one of two interpretations in this situation in my opinion and it is certainly not clear...

[Aezeal]

I see your point Siegfried but "as if it where the movement phase" does not imply any limits.

[Craptrain]

The phrase " as though it were the movement phase" tells us that the hero phase in which the Forest Spirit battalion chooses to move has the same freedoms and limitations as any other movement phase would.  Since coming in from the hidden enclaves is normally allowed in a movement phase, by the wording of this rule it would be allowed in that particular hero phase for the Forest Spirits.  I see Nico's interpretation as the correct one.

[Mike McB]

I actually had this happen to me and Durthu rolled a 6 so he got to move again in hero phase then move again in normal movement and took out my tl ancient first turn. 

That was my first regular game and i also play Sylvaneth. which was a great learning experience. 

[Nico]

Mike - that's a slightly different situation - more luck than list building on the part of your opponent.