nasty little 1000 Pts. Death

[Nico]

Quote

the premier buff recipient in GA: Death

This is unquestionably Necropolis Knights (factoring in speed, mortal wound output and rend). The same buffs on Skellies would do more damage to a 4+ vanilla save, but obviously not as fast or mortal woundy as Necropolis Knights.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Not taking sides, but it's worth noting that the Zombies rely on Vanhel's to get up to serious killy power, a spell which can be Unbound or fail to cast. Something like the Wight King giving +1A to Skeletons via a Command Ability doesn't need a dice roll to go off and can't be negated.

Mathhammer often occurs in a vacuum, and forgets that you can have woeful dice rolls at an inopportune time, or your opponent took a one-use artifact that dispels one spell.

[Malakithe]

Relying on buffs from squishy easily snipped heroes is why I'm opting for Spirit Hosts and Morghast in my list with VLoZD and Arkhan. As a good vampire general will know, disposable minions are disposable lol 3×10 skellies or battleline to road block. Done.

[mmimzie]

As ive already agree the math just simply doesnt support zombies against high armor target.

 

Though what i am saying that buffs make zombies really strong, and alloe them to punch well above thier weigh class.  And that a zombie heavy army is a viable option. then i went so far as to say that they could challenge heavily armored unit, but the math show that that is not a realistic solution. 

 

All of this is important when considering a zombie heavy army. Which is kind of the point of this forum post. As zombies are feast or famine. You either go all zombie horde and embrace the weekness there in, or you dont brong enough zombies and all of your zombie buffing units start being point sinks.

 

Which goes to my point on the arcai. bring them in the zombie list is 240 points or 40 zombies worth of points. If all your zombies are gone. Your big zombie buffing abilities now have targets who won't put those buffs to as good a use as a zombie horde. 

 

VDM, Vl x2 attacks, Corpse Cart buff, and ×2movement on a 40 man zombie squad spanning half or more of the board charging 3, 4, or 5 targets. 

 

Where your morghast will gey +1 attack and x2 movement, charging one or 2 units. 

Oh one other really cool thing with zombies. when you get zombies back, either from banner or kills. these zombies can be placed forward of the unit to increase your threat range which is something like 2x 1d6" closer to your enemy. You can also use this to enhance your surround. effectively teleporting casualties from the back to attacking units in melee. 

TLDR: Are zombies the best unit in the game? no, best in desth? no, Are they a viable unit to build an army around? yes with counters. be careful adding none zombie units as they eat into your army significantly. 

 

Edit:  As for buffer vulnerability. Note the zombie unit can stretch well across the board. your heros can start far away and out of line of sight only needing a single model from the unit in 18-10". While the large number of zombies also provide bubble wrap for your units. 

 

One picture i cant find is my zombie unit stretched well accross the board. forming circles around each of my support units, and also fully engaged with the enemy. otherwise known as vultron.

[Nico]

They definitely provide a lot of bang for your buck and the synergy with the 5+ ward save is massive. On the other hand, they are also a great Battleline choice if you're going to take one of the big named characters. I might revisit my Settra list and see if I can make it better with Zombros in it.

My biggest concern with them was always their lack of speed. Sure they could defend well, but could they get to an objective fast enough to matter? I think you may have suggested using the VLoAT to double their move, but this seems like a lot of points and could surely be better spent on say speeding up a Mourngul or a VLoZD or GKoTG.

[Solaris]

In that case we mostly agree. I completely agree that a Zombie army is viable, but I do think that holding back on the Zombies to get a good spread between damage types is necessary in an efficient list.

31 minutes ago, Nico said:

I might revisit my Settra list and see if I can make it better with Zombros in it.

I would be interested in seeing your Settra list, if you are willing to share it.

[Nico]

It's not rocket science.

Settra List
1 x Settra the Imperishable (1)	360
1 x Liche Priest (1)	120
1 x Tomb King (1)	100
1 x Tomb King (1)	100
1 x Necrotect (1)	100
1 x Necromancer (1)	120
2 x Necropolis Knights (6)	320
1 x Skeleton Chariots (3)	140
1 x Skeleton Chariots (3)	140
1 x Skeleton Horsemen (5)	100
1 x Necrosphinx/Mourngul (1)	400
Total	2000

 

The (cough inherent Battleline) Chariots go in as 2 initial waves with buffs and do a multiple of their damage - clearing out chaff in particular. The Necrosphinx, Necropolis Knights and Settra then hit the enemy.

[Squirrelmaster]

I don't think there's much you can do with a list built around zombies, that you couldn't do better with a list built around skeletons. I'd rather have 4 attacks each with a 2" range, on a 4+ / 4+, than 2 attacks each on a 2+/3+ with a 1" range.

But OK, if you don't mind having a list that will have some really bad match-ups (and some really good ones), I guess you could pretty much go either way, and it wouldn't make much difference.

My bias as a Tomb King player may be a slight factor…

Oh, and definitely no to zombos if you're running Settra, Tomb Kings on foot, and a Liche Priest. Settra's command ability is almost twice as effective on DEATHRATTLE, the TK CA only works on skeletons, and the Liche Priest's signature spell is SKELETON or REANIMANT only. You'd be losing out on most of your army's potential synergy.

[Solaris]

Yeah, the only reason to run Zombies in a Settra list would be as cheap battleline fodder, so you can spend the rest of your points on juicier units. Even so, I think it would be suboptimal. Ideally, you take battleline units that you have a real use for in your list instead.

Of course, in another list, it is different. But in a Settra list, it mostly seems like throwing away synergy.

[mmimzie]

I think as cheap battle line. I feel like skels with shield are abit better. The zombies just die, but the skells are alittle more annoying. They bring some damage and staying power to the table that just a min squad of zombies just doesn't do. 

[mmimzie]

Not to derail to much from the OP's list, but what are your thought of a mortis engine in a list like mine. 

 

VL (General, Immortal, Ruler Of the Knight)

2x Necromancers

1x Vampire Lord on abyssal

2x Corpse Cart (+1 cast, but modeled with the flames because they are cool and fit the theme of my army)

 

9x10 zombies

~~1,320 points about

Originally, i had it in there. The problem was that  it's abit slow. Only going off in the hero phase meaning you need to get into range the turn before, and then go off. The heal is a little weak in this list, but it does work on the necros, Vampe Lords, and Corpse Carts.  Plus i think the zombie provide a really nice delieve method.

Also as mensioned stuff like the treelord and stardrake should give my zombies pause, and having a potential 6 mortal wounds in a turn would be a big help. Even more so be able to do this to multiple units.  All from the cover of zombies. Also a second source of +1 cast would rock for summoning and VDM. 

[Nico]

Quote

Oh, and definitely no to zombos if you're running Settra, Tomb Kings on foot, and a Liche Priest. Settra's command ability is almost twice as effective on DEATHRATTLE, the TK CA only works on skeletons, and the Liche Priest's signature spell is SKELETON or REANIMANT only. You'd be losing out on most of your army's potential synergy.

As has been suggested above, it's purely so you can do Battleline as one unit of either 3 or 6 chariots and then 120 points of Zombies as 2 units. It might free up space for the Royal Warsphinx.

[Hans]

In open play they are almost unbeatable. In match play, for the discussed concensus, our TO don't allow merging if it exceed original size, if you are size of 20, but drop to 10, u can merger to get back to 20. That's that. So zombies aren't that effective for us. 

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, Hans said:

In open play they are almost unbeatable. In match play, for the discussed concensus, our TO don't allow merging if it exceed original size, if you are size of 20, but drop to 10, u can merger to get back to 20. That's that. So zombies aren't that effective for us. 

Interesting that's quite TO specific. A tournament i will be attending in january will be playing them by thier rules and thier rules alone to my understand, and no effect from the general's hand book. As such i'll be practising with my list in this way.

I'd go into way i agree that's how it works, but it's abit nit picky. Though i'll say it draws heavily on the definision of the world merge. Lmao!!!

As for almost unbeatable. I wouldn't even say almost as thier are plenty of counters to it, but they are all very specific. Just as the counter to a treelord ignoring rend with a rerolling 2+ save and healing is quite specifically mortal wounds or high rend. 

I think decimators who alpha strike into units of zombies will obliterate the unit easily. The zombies such on the enemy turn, and its really the necromancer spell that gets you that money. I also think they struggle against very tanky models; who might eventualy die to the zombie horde, will take a considerable amount of time and effort. Also zombies require a support system to be truely good, unlike maybe say the treelord who can just be plug into a list. 

[Squirrelmaster]

For open play, if they're unbeatable, your opponent jusr isn't taking enough units to counter them.

For tournament play, even if you can merge them all into one big unit of 100, I'd rather have skeletons. Zombies just aren't that great as damage dealers.

[the_prophecy]

all in all the list was put to test at last weekends AoS Tournament in Berlin. My Buddy played with this List (1k points)

Vampire Lord mounted, Chalice, Ruler of the Night, Ring of Immortality

Necromancer

1 Corpse Cart

10 Zombies

40 Skelletons

3 Vargheists

120 Pts. for Summoning (mostly Zombies)

I was participating with this List (Stormcast)

Lord Celestant (General, Reckless)

Lord Celestant on Dracoth, Tempestos Hammer & Shield, Phoenix Stone

5 Liberators

5 Liberators, Grandblade

5 Retributors

3 Prosecutors, Javelins, Trident

 

My First game was against my Buddy :-)

in the first 2 Turns he dominated the Battlefield due to summoing Zombies on Objectives. I pretty much used my whole hitting Power smashing the 40 Skellies and Vampire in 1 Turn and slowly killing the rest, therefore winning. I ignored the 30 Zombies and won  by VP after Turn 5.

 

In the End the Undead were second Last and my List won 2nd Place. The Skellies are quite good when fully buffed with 160 Attacks attacking twice but when your opponent attacks them first and kills nearly 20 of them in the first cc phase they are not so much useful anymore.

[Malakithe]

^^^ is exactly why I don't rely on or build lists around buffing up cheap battleline units like skellies or zombies. They are cheap road blocks, nothing more. Lists that super buff a single unit are too gimmicky and everything collapses when you kill anything.

[mmimzie]

21 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

^^^ is exactly why I don't rely on or build lists around buffing up cheap battleline units like skellies or zombies. They are cheap road blocks, nothing more. Lists that super buff a single unit are too gimmicky and everything collapses when you kill anything.

Eh i like the zombies because it's not a single unit until you go in for the kill.  Also, they are quite tanky when separated regenerating lots of dudes. On the level of ghouls in formation. Mainly because the ghouls have to be in units of 20 while zombies small units give you lots of d6 to roll.

 

This said you semple just don't have to do it if you don't like it. It's most definitly not the only way to play. it's simply one of many viable and competive ways to play a death army. 

[Solaris]

34 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

^^^ is exactly why I don't rely on or build lists around buffing up cheap battleline units like skellies or zombies. They are cheap road blocks, nothing more. Lists that super buff a single unit are too gimmicky and everything collapses when you kill anything.

If you only treat battleline as road blocks, you're missing out. Battleline units can be extremely strong, if used right. If you use them wrong, though, they get demolished (just like most other units). That is to say, if you end up in a situation where your large e.g. Skeleton unit gets demolished before getting to attack, it's for one out of two reasons. 1) You used them as a bait or sacrifice, in order to get a larger advantage somewhere else on the battlefield, or 2)  you made a mistake in your deployment/movement/positioning, which was exploited by your opponent.

The second one is likely what happened to the friend mentioned above. On top of that, his list was simply not very good at all. The Corpse Cart, for example, is completely meaningless when you only have 10 Zombies, and even if you summon 30 more it's probably not worthwhile.

I agree with you that relying on a single unit to do all the work is not a good idea in list building. Ideally, a list should contain many different threats for the opponent to keep in mind.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Ideally that Skeleton unit should have went first, which implies it either A, was caught off-guard in the opponent's turn, or B, your friend didn't do their order of execution for the combat phase right. 

[Solaris]

Either way, it implies that a mistake was made. We all make mistakes from time to time, but deeming a unit weak because it was used improperly is not a good idea imo.

[deynon]

Sincerly I play both skeletons and zombies and they are solid as rocks and kill much more than heavy weights. All that minds is how and when to use them.

Don't be prevented about them. Sincerly with skeletons I've eaten everything, few units has the desire to clash against them. Zombies are perfect for delaying and corrode the enemy strenght. It's not necessary that they win, and they can anyway climb back again. And they are much more numerous than the ghouls or the skeletons. ABout ghoul they win cause they don't need to relate on warscroll battelions to be able to regenerate models and the have the musician that is perfect to be sure to act as stoppers.

Skeletons are my faovourites, but anyway I don't think that they are better than the zombies.

There are fes models thse these nits have not hunted and those are cause I didn't find them yet. The skeltons have eaten even a Bloodthirster. 

The zombies...beh...they held my lines safeguarding wwithout any problem from everything.  And moreover thy cna be reinforced through summoning really easily.

Both units hae their own good points. Nothing to ostracize about.

[the_prophecy]

21 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Ideally that Skeleton unit should have went first, which implies it either A, was caught off-guard in the opponent's turn, or B, your friend didn't do their order of execution for the combat phase right. 

yes, he said after the game, that he shouldnt move his 40 Skellies Block so aggressive. But in the next game he played against Sylvaneth and his skellies had no chance wounding a treeman ancient

[CoffeeGrunt]

Very few things do, especially as it can have a 2+ Save.

[mmimzie]

The treelord anchient thing. I've looked into him because i love super tanky models, and that guy does do anything in combat. I think him Vs some skels wound take forever.