New to FEC, stressing about summoning...

[MiniJunkie]

Hi folks,

picked up the start collecting box and a box of horrors to get a start on FEC. I'm new to the game and just figuring out the summoning rules...I find them unappealing tbh. I guess I'm just more of a paint and deploy everything at once kind of player. Did I choose poorly? Can I play FEC effectively (matched play) if I avoid summoning? Does the summoning restriction include when you are adding ghouls back to a unit that died previously?

[Beothuk]

I never use a reinforcement pool with my FEC, just send in the swarm. Returning ghoul models with the ghoul patrol/courtier abilities do not use summoning points, free as long as you are just returning dead models to a unit and not increasing a unit above its starting size.

[deynon]

i use quite a lot the summoning but it's not vital, you can play also without it

[CoffeeGrunt]

Ghouls tend to operate more on reinforcing depleted units than actually summoning new ones in, so they function very well without worrying about Summoning at all. Personally I play vanilla Death, and even then don't use Summoning.

[james.speller]

On 10/27/2016 at 4:42 AM, MiniJunkie said:

Can I play FEC effectively (matched play) if I avoid summoning? Does the summoning restriction include when you are adding ghouls back to a unit that died previously?

Yes you can play them effectively without summoning. The ghoul patrol is extremely powerful at 1000 points.

The summoning restriction does not apply when you're replacing casualties. This means that Ghoul patrol is awesome because your units can be reduced to 1 or 2 mans and still recover to hold objectives.

One of the important things that I would recommend to you is the maneuverability that summoning gives you. Being able to bring courtiers or units (ghoul patrol) on from different table quarters will help capturing objectives by weight of numbers.

[ElectricPaladin]

17 minutes ago, james.speller said:

One of the important things that I would recommend to you is the maneuverability that summoning gives you. Being able to bring courtiers or units (ghoul patrol) on from different table quarters will help capturing objectives by weight of numbers.

Bingo.

I've used summoning to pretty great effect, whether it's suddenly challenging an objective my opponent thought was safe or suddenly dropping, say, a banshee on an objective in my own backfield for those two game-winning points. The no-roll summon abilities of the ghoul kings are awesome, and definitely worth setting a few points aside for...

But yeah, summoning isn't necessary. You can eschew it, especially if you've got a ghoul patrol bringing dudes in off the board edge.

[wayniac]

To be honest, I find the matched play rules to really ****** over Death, FEC in particular.  Death armies are built around the idea that your troops die easily but you can keep bringing them back.  Especially against shooting armies where your characters will be sniped out and leave you with no way to replenish units.  People keep saying Death and particularly FEC are still good, but I just don't see it and when I've played, the summoning restriction is really ****** me over.

YMMV but it has certainly made me look at other armies; maybe Death just is not for me, I was never a big fan of horde armies.

[MiniJunkie]

Hm. That's depressing considering I just bought some FEC stuff

[wayniac]

11 minutes ago, MiniJunkie said:

Hm. That's depressing considering I just bought some FEC stuff

Well I mean, you have to figure out for yourself.  That's just me.  Of course I may be salty because I played against Sylvaneth last week and got totally wiped out with like nothing to hit back because I had no way to stop his shooting and he made sure to snipe my characters out first with his Hunters.

[ElectricPaladin]

I find that Death works pretty well. I've had opponents completely lose their ****** over my endlessly regenerating units. Then again, I've never faced Sylvaneth. I also tend to use ghoul patrol as the core of my armies when I'm playing 1k or larger.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I've only played Sylvaneth once and it was a massacre, couldn't touch them. I imagine there's ways around it, but it was an upmountain struggle.

I don't think Death are worthless, though. I've had decent success with them lately.

[deynon]

I tried 2500 points using more then 700points by summoning... it has been devastating for my opponents. Moreover I use always summoned horrors to press against opponents.

[ThePhyx]

I play death, mostly FEC with some other death filler. I almost never use summoning, and to be honest if you use the most updated warscrolls, why would I waste my command ability to summon when I can pick a good command ability like Ruler of the night, which makes my extra 6+ save a 5+ save. That is huge!!!

[deynon]

5 hours ago, ThePhyx said:

I play death, mostly FEC with some other death filler. I almost never use summoning, and to be honest if you use the most updated warscrolls, why would I waste my command ability to summon when I can pick a good command ability like Ruler of the night, which makes my extra 6+ save a 5+ save. That is huge!!!

but it's not a command ability, it's automatiic being withinn 10" from the general, as the 6+save from each hero

[Solaris]

Well, I recently places second in a tournament with a non-horde Death army without summoning. So apparently you don't have to play a horde, or with summoning, to succeed. Faced a Sylvaneth army which I played a draw against, even after he sniped my Settra on the first turn. Now I know that I need to protect my characters properly.

Not bragging, just want to illustrate that you can certainly play a strong non-horde Death army that doesn't rely on summoning.

[Nico]

Pretty amazing that he could snipe him with a 3+ save and 5++, 6++ wards against both wounds and mortal wounds. He's not a monster so pop him in cover if he fits. Mine is on a CD base (it's the sexy Arkhan Chariot of Lad) which doesn't help. I hope you rolled a 6 for the mortal wounds back curse. Also invest in Tomb Heralds as they take wounds on behalf and then get their own 6+ ward save to boot.

 

 

[deynon]

1 hour ago, Solaris said:

Well, I recently places second in a tournament with a non-horde Death army without summoning. So apparently you don't have to play a horde, or with summoning, to succeed. Faced a Sylvaneth army which I played a draw against, even after he sniped my Settra on the first turn. Now I know that I need to protect my characters properly.

Not bragging, just want to illustrate that you can certainly play a strong non-horde Death army that doesn't rely on summoning.

Summoning is not a must, it's an option. Both ways can be used usefully, nothing shocking. I prefer to include some summoning cause my style, not an issue

[Solaris]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

Pretty amazing that he could snipe him with a 3+ save and 5++, 6++ wards against both wounds and mortal wounds. He's not a monster so pop him in cover if he fits. Mine is on a CD base (it's the sexy Arkhan Chariot of Lad) which doesn't help. I hope you rolled a 6 for the mortal wounds back curse. Also invest in Tomb Heralds as they take wounds on behalf and then get their own 6+ ward save to boot.

 

 

Yeah, he got pretty lucky, teleported 6 Kurnoth Hunters and a Treelord Ancient and shot him dead. Would on average have taken 2.75 wounds after saves, but I rolled some abysmal save rolls. It's gotta happen at some point, I guess. I might bring a Herald next time, yeah, already have some plans on how to tweak my list to include him.

[ThePhyx]

9 hours ago, deynon said:

but it's not a command ability, it's automatiic being withinn 10" from the general, as the 6+save from each hero

Ruler of the night is a command ability, which is exactly what I said. It makes that 6+ a 5+, which gives awesome survivability, and I feel is way more important than summoning something I can just put on the table to start with.

[deynon]

1 minute ago, ThePhyx said:

Ruler of the night is a command ability, which is exactly what I said. It makes that 6+ a 5+, which gives awesome survivability, and I feel is way more important than summoning something I can just put on the table to start with.

it.s a trait, not a command ability. You have always that on, you don't have to activate it. no trait is a command ability, it gives you the ability to use one amd in that case it declares it specifically. You are confused about it.

Reread the description of the traits and of the command abilities, they are two different things. If you think so, also red fury and so on are command abilities...and the "naster of black arts" is the same a command ability so? it's the same, so you mean that you have to choose each  turn if grant 6+ save, being a mage or use "Inspiring presence"? come on... you misread totally

[Grimnaud]

33 minutes ago, ThePhyx said:

Ruler of the night is a command ability, which is exactly what I said. It makes that 6+ a 5+, which gives awesome survivability, and I feel is way more important than summoning something I can just put on the table to start with.

It isn't often I agree with @deynon on a rules question (), but Ruler of the Night is definitely a Command Trait, not a command ability. You can use both your command trait and your command ability in the same turn. The rules from command traits state that they are "in addition to" you command abilities, not as an additional command ability.

[ThePhyx]

If I can use both then why am I not allowed a command trait if my commander is a named character? Seems like if traits where diff than ability you could give your commander a trait regardless of named or not. 

[ElectricPaladin]

3 minutes ago, ThePhyx said:

If I can use both then why am I not allowed a command trait if my commander is a named character?

Because that's how GW wrote the rules.

[Grimnaud]

8 minutes ago, ThePhyx said:

If I can use both then why am I not allowed a command trait if my commander is a named character? Seems like if traits where diff than ability you could give your commander a trait regardless of named or not. 

You're not allowed an Artifact on a named character either.  That doesn't mean that the artifacts are command abilities. Fluff-wise it could be because named characters are supposed to have a predetermined set of abilities that you're not supposed to be able to modify to suit your needs. It could also be a hangover from previous editions, where, if memory serves, you couldn't give named characters magic items either. Or it could just be that one ore more combinations would be extremely broken. Who knows why? With the exception of named characters not being able to use them, there is nothing indicating that command traits are command abilities.

[ThePhyx]

8 minutes ago, Grimnaud said:

You're not allowed an Artifact on a named character either.  That doesn't mean that the artifacts are command abilities. Fluff-wise it could be because named characters are supposed to have a predetermined set of abilities that you're not supposed to be able to modify to suit your needs. It could also be a hangover from previous editions, where, if memory serves, you couldn't give named characters magic items either. Or it could just be that one ore more combinations would be extremely broken. Who knows why? With the exception of named characters not being able to use them, there is nothing indicating that command traits are command abilities.

Ya but you can give an artefact to any hero, you can't give the trait. Essentially, the ability to have a CA and CT means there is zero reason to ever make a named character the general.

Glad to learn something today, it just seemed weird.