AoS 3 - Kruleboyz Discussion

[Vasshpit]

3 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

VEW is just a wierd fit in general for the army IMO. Like I get that its how poison works in AoS, but the army feels like it wants to be johnny-spike, and VeW is anti-spike, since its so inconsistent.

They could lean heavily into VEW and have your choice of different venoms and poisons we pick and choose from. That might be cool. 

[Ganigumo]

2 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

They could lean heavily into VEW and have your choice of different venoms and poisons we pick and choose from. That might be cool. 

Like debuff poisons or something? That would be a cool take.

[Vasshpit]

8 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Like debuff poisons or something? That would be a cool take.

Yes. 

Just a quick example could be "in hero phase pick venom of choice for unit for that round" player picks (insert cool mind altering venom name here) and if your opponent takes and damage this gutrippaz unit receives +1 to skare taktikz so like -2 to hit. 

Just a quick example. 

 

Might work, might not, just brain storming. 

 

Ooh, imagine paralyzing venom on boltboyz. Roll a D3 and subtract that from enemies movement. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Vasshpit

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

22 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@RocketPropelledGrenade 🤔 Jawz really should be 3+ imo. But that's another topic. 

Since they're rocking shields what about +1 save if they out number the attacking unit?

I could see a conditional way to get +1 save, as long as they can't get to 3+ with All Out Defense. That would be silly for swamp-dwelling commando Orruks in terms of heavy armor. Outnumbering would be an option, or maybe they can receive a free All Out Defense if the enemy All Out Attacks or something like that.

[woolf]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

instead of just upping their movement KB should get a bunch of movement tricks instead, like being able to be deployed inside terrain, or coming off board edges.

100%

[woolf]

tricks and traps should be the thing here, personally really like the idea of having loads of high impact traps disrupting opponent game plan, things that stop movement, charge, lower dmg output etc, basically delay tactics making them miss battle tactics and lose objectives, not so much killing their units. But they should constantly need to be worried about making a certain move, seems exactly the way our ladz figths in the lore

[Vasshpit]

@woolf

That could be cool as well. Is there anything like this currently in AoS or 40k that uses such mechanics? I cant think of any? I've heard several times that the genestealers style of play ported over to AoS would be interesting. 

[Tomplex]

I don't know. I feel like GW missed the mark with Kruleboyz not just with the rules but with the lore as well. The Swamp lurkers background on troops that use complicated and powerful mechanisms like crossbows and ballistae, that would rust quickly and gunk up immediately in a swamp just doesn't jive.

 

As orruks who prefer a Mork approach to war, they should have better armor, weapons and discipline than the Ironjawz who seem to have fully abandoned their roots (if not the miniatures) of the Black Orcs of the old world in favor of krumping things with pig iron.

 

We already have Gitz to be sneaky, the Kruleboyz should have shown their Morkishness with martial discipline and tactics. Using ensorcelled weapons and armor crafted by the Chaos Dwarfs instead of sticks dipped in toxins. But that's just my opinion. 

 

And speaking of gitz why are there any the book? Why make units for Kruleboyz that don't get to use the allegiance abilities? Would it have been so bad to have Orruks on the Sloggoth?

 

Just an overall missed opportunity if you ask me. And don't get me started on how badly the soup was implemented in this soup book. There's no soup just less options.

[Vasshpit]

3 hours ago, Tomplex said:

I don't know. I feel like GW missed the mark with Kruleboyz not just with the rules but with the lore as well. The Swamp lurkers background on troops that use complicated and powerful mechanisms like crossbows and ballistae, that would rust quickly and gunk up immediately in a swamp just doesn't jive.

I'm in the complete opposite ship. I think they just scratched the surface of what they can do. Of course d rather have more options and better rules but I thourghally enjoy this faction. 

I also try to keep in mind that the world was in a troubled time during their release and probably design stages as well. I'd reckon that they most likely didn't get their fullest attention or support.

Regardless I like them a lot and hope to see more. 

In regards to their gear I had just assumed they're cunning enough to have maintained it well enough for their purposes. 

3 hours ago, Tomplex said:

As orruks who prefer a Mork approach to war, they should have better armor, weapons and discipline than the Ironjawz who seem to have fully abandoned their roots (if not the miniatures) of the Black Orcs of the old world in favor of krumping things with pig iron.

I've been saying this since the initial release that I'd love to see Murknob Arboyz! It fits their theme and lore very well, I think. An elite unit like having 5 mini killabosses. It would fill an elite/hammer roll they could use.

 

3 hours ago, Tomplex said:

We already have Gitz to be sneaky, the Kruleboyz should have shown their Morkishness with martial discipline and tactics. Using ensorcelled weapons and armor crafted by the Chaos Dwarfs instead of sticks dipped in toxins. But that's just my opinion. 

These could all be shown and exemplified with better rules and stats. They may not wear heavy plate but they should be fast and effective with that toxin dipped stick. 

And apparently relation betwixt kruleboyz and the chaos duardin are not so good. There's a brief lore sentence or two about "The War of the Broken Promise" that occured. Hence how the hobgrots have etched out a profitable existence between the friction. I'm very eager to know more about this. 

3 hours ago, Tomplex said:

And speaking of gitz why are there any the book? Why make units for Kruleboyz that don't get to use the allegiance abilities? Would it have been so bad to have Orruks on the Sloggoth?

I agree here on the gitz and rules but again this can be addressed with rules and stats. And I'd love to see them get a huge transport unit/monster like a right proper snapping turtle beastie or a giant swamp buffalo that holds like 11 models and has some fun rules. 

I found it pretty cool to see the grots sprinkled in across their range and the companion ones on some heros. I wouldn't be opposed to them becoming the next chapter in the "orcs & goblins" design book. I'm sure Geedubs has plans but kruleboyz could have used snarlfang riders substantially more than the shroom gitz.  They could have been what the pot grot is to a swampcalla or a stab grot to a killaboss only this role would be geared more towards a killaboss on great gnashtoof and have more utility to play with. 

3 hours ago, Tomplex said:

Just an overall missed opportunity if you ask me. And don't get me started on how badly the soup was implemented in this soup book. There's no soup just less options.

Yes, yes it was. The soup was bad this day... 👊

Edited April 11, 2023 by Vasshpit

[Someravella]

I think KB should have been a Destruction army on its own. Yes, they are another greenskin army, but they are physically and culturally different from regular orruks and gitz. Within KB, there could be different subfactions that express kunnin and morkiness differently:

- Grinnin' blades: Ghurish Swamp sneaky predators, specialized in tricks, traps and debuffs.

- Big yellerz: Chamon creative orruks (aka, Mordor orruks), specialized in balistas and machines.

- Skullbugz: Shyish monster-lover orruks, specialized in monsters and magic (iirc, they are more spiritual)

Edited April 11, 2023 by Someravella

[Ganigumo]

Something that could be a neat take on traps would be to have gutrippaz, and maybe boltboyz, be able to forgo moving to set traps, whether that be an allegiance ability or a warscroll one. Maybe with some options for different traps too, like a mortal wound one, or one that makes charging harder. It could maybe even be an extra enhancement table.

1 hour ago, Someravella said:

I think KB should have been a Destruction army on its own. Yes, they are another greenskin army, but they are physically and culturally different from regular orruks and girz. And then, within KB, there could be different subfactions that express kunnin and morkiness differently:

- Grinnin' blades: Ghurish Swamp sneaky predators, specialized in tricks and debuffs.

- Big yellerz: Chamon creative orruks (aka, Mordor orruks), specialized in balistas and machines.

- Skullbugz: Shyish monster-lover orruks, specialized in monsters and magic (iirc, they are more spiritual)

They can make it work properly in warclans, although I wouldn't oppose a separate tome either. Just feels like the only part of the book that was finished was ironjawz. Bonesplitterz did fine competitively, and technically still have a pretty good winrate, but the good lists are all super skew spam lists because there's a ton of internal balance issues.

[Someravella]

Also, I think that one thing GW has to fix in KB is that Kragnos, who is one of the main "centerpieces" in their lore (see how many models have trinckets and banners modelled after him), should have useful synergies with the army.

Yes, I bought Kragnos and I feel stupid.

[Ganigumo]

2 hours ago, Someravella said:

Also, I think that one thing GW has to fix in KB is that Kragnos, who is one of the main "centerpieces" in their lore (see how many models have trinckets and banners modelled after him), should have useful synergies with the army.

Yes, I bought Kragnos and I feel stupid.

The entirety of kragnos feels like an afterthought. I know they said specifically a bunch of the faces were modelled after kragnos but I just don't see it. They remind me more of orruk faces, or the squigskin stuff old greenskinz had on banners and shields sometimes.

I think its just something they wrote into the lore to try to fit kragnos into destruction better, not something that was necessarily thought out during the modelling phase.

I'm still not convinced he wasn't a BoC model that got repurposed.

I'm not sure its Kragnos' fault he doesn't fit into kruleboyz either, he works best in ogors, where you can abuse ogor charge with 3d6 charges, but he still works pretty well in Bonesplitterz and Gitz (Gitz has better stuff at the moment, but he can do work there). I guess Ironjawz don't want him, but thats because he doesn't differentiate himself from a maw-krusha. 

The worst part is kragnos actually does synergize pretty well with our allegiance abilities, he gives us a source of damage that isn't reliant on 6's and gives us great 3d6 charges which can enable a really strong kruleboyz waaagh! and help our slower units get into combat. Kruleboyz just can't really afford to spend that many points on him, despite the point decreases we keep getting.

You could run something like this with him and try to run an alpha list, but since all our melee threats are leaders you can't control the turn order at all.
 

Quote

Allegiance: Kruleboyz
- Warclan: Grinnin' Blades
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Kragnos, The End of Empires (720)
- Allies
Breaka-Boss on Mirebrute Troggoth (180)
Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (290)
- General
- Command Trait: Supa Sneaky
- Artefact: Vial of Manticore Venom (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Gobsprakk, The Mouth of Mork (260)

Battleline
10 x Gutrippaz (150)
10 x Gutrippaz (150)
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)

Units
1 x Marshcrawla Sloggoth (150)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 720 / 400
Wounds: 120
Drops: 8
 

edit:
Getting any of our melee threats in the troop slot (Sludgeraker, mirebrute, or vulture), as battleline, would do a lot for the army, especially for any kragnos builds. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Ganigumo

[woolf]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:18 AM, Vasshpit said:

@woolf

That could be cool as well. Is there anything like this currently in AoS or 40k that uses such mechanics? I cant think of any? I've heard several times that the genestealers style of play ported over to AoS would be interesting. 

not that I'm aware, I don't play 40k though so honestly have very poor understanding of the rules and faction rules in that game, I think genestealers have some sort of beast of chaos like deepstrike maybe?

Anyways I was thinking about KB traps a while back and my ideas were around having mainly utility rather than dmg traps, things like if you charge into a trap you get penalty to armour save and maybe some neg modifier to hit or #attacks, opening you up for counter attack. Or the KB unit can disappear using a hidden trapdoor to basically teleport away. Could also be things like if you spring the trap, that unit cant charge in the next phase, or get less movement so they don't reach an objective as planned (or maybe just don't count towards objectives as that is a thing now, e.g. new OBR magic bird). Basically I would like the army to have a playstyle that is very evasive, they should evaporate in a "fair" 1-1 fight (and hey we got that part covered already!) but they need then tools to really select their fights and when they do, opponent fights with debuffs, strike last etc (or we fight with buffs to maybe make less "NPE" if ppl dont like getting debuffed, basically the same thing just word it as we get extra rend or they get neg armour etc).

The delivery mechanism of the traps could be made in many different ways, e.g. could be tied to terrain, could be a specific unit that is trapped (i.e. if you step 3'' from them, but it is removed if they move or something like that), or could be that KB gets like 10 markers (similar to gravesites) with numbers on and X of them are trapped, there could be some unit that can place new traps etc (im sure it wouldn't be too hard to come up with a number of other alternatives for this). For me that would be way much more fun, thematic and also play into the psychology warfare, i.e. the trap effects need to be impactful enough so opponent really needs to play around them, e.g. send a screen forward to "sweep" rather than throw your big 500pts hammer in to get snared and killed by swarming orruks. I would then just remove VEW as is and instead maybe a certain trap effect is that you score mortals on 6s against the unit that triggered that trap. Also very different play style from other armies (i.e. a very reactive one, you need to lure opponent into making moves to expose themselves) that I think would be a nice addition to the game

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

One possible way to emphasize the traps/kunnin' tricks more would be to make them like Lumineth Aether-quartz. Give each unit a Trap token at the start of the game, and they can spend it on an effect such as the ones Woolf describes--hidden trapdoor or tunnel, deadly snares, armor-dissolving slime, etc.

[Vasshpit]

Some really cool ideas going on here, y'all. 

I think a unit of grots that is focused on traps would be interesting. A six grot unit like snufflers and not a full ten or twenty would be great for sneaking around the board. 

The disappearing act dirty trick even describes them. .

[Ganigumo]

I was thinking yesterday about how to update kb, and I think changing VEW to 1 mortal wound in addition on an unmodified hit roll of 6 would be better for the army.

I haven't crunched the numbers but in general it favors low damage attacks instead of high damage ones and reduces the damage variance by a lot.

You'd still have units that try to spam mortals, like gutrippaz, but our heavy hitters could have their base profiles buffed to compensate.

[Superninja]

I wish the poison was a different mechanic as well.

My thoughts:

Each time you are hit (Or maybe wounded)  with a poisoned weapon, your poison rating goes up. (starts at zero, 1st hit=1, 6 hits=6max)

At the end of any phase in which you became poisoned and at the beginning of each hero phase, you roll a die and if you roll over your poison rating you reduce your poison rating by 1 and take no damage. If you roll below or equal to your poison rating then you take 1 mortal wound and reduce your poisoned rating by 1.

Healing reduces poison rating by the amount healed.

OR

Each time you hit with a poisoned weapon (or wounded), choose and apply of the following debuffs that lasts until your next hero phase:

-1 to hit rolls for poisoned unit, +1 to hit rolls against poisoned unit, -1 to wound rolls for poisoned unit, +1 to wound rolls against poisoned unit, -2 to bravery, 1/2 movement, -1 to saves, Can't move,  Can't pile in, Fight last, Can't be chosen to fight, Can't Fire Ranged Weapons, Can't cast spells, Can't cast prayers, Can't give or receive commands. (Just a list of ideas)

Healing removes 1 debuff per amount healed.

OR

Poison could just make it a lot easier for a weapon to wound.  Like all poisoned weapons wound on 2+

OR

Poison could make the damage of weapons higher than their un-poisoned counterparts.  Poisoned weapons do atleast 2 damage, but often 3-4. (High damage, but low or moderate rend)

OR

In the movement phase, Instead of moving, a unit could apply poison to their weapons, improving the rend or damage of the weapon by 1 or x. x=the poison rating of the weapon.  OR this is what could make the weapon do mortal wounds.

OR

At the beginning of the shooting or combat phase, a unit can apply poison to their weapons, improving the rend or damage of the chosen weapon by 1 or x where x=the poison rating of the weapon.

 

I dont know if any of these are good or balanced...but just ideas.

 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

There's like a hojillion solutions to every possible mechanical problem. The issue is never coming up with ideas, the issue is always selecting one and iterating on it until it works and feels right. I'm sure GW's design team has more ideas than this entire thread combined, but that alone doesn't fix the problem, and it certainly isn't something that is going to be implemented before a new battletome. Smaller, more incremental stuff is all we're likely to see until then, unfortunately--although the upside is that the learning curve for adjusting to that tends to be less drastic.

Personally, I think Kruleboyz' issues neither start nor end with VEW. It's much more fundamental that that, and primarily about unit roles. The faction still doesn't have an anvil, a proper melee hammer, or the range to produce an effective castle. The only cost-effective screens are hobgrots, and they have limited synergy with the rest of the army. Basically, Kruleboyz are an entire faction of utility pieces without anything tying them together.

[Superninja]

Well the lack of creativity for the way VEW works may point to a lack of good ideas.  While the rule is simple, it isn't very creative. And from my experience, VEW creates a NPE for the opponent and even the one playing KB.  You either kill them easily with mortals or do very little. 

I recently played against Nurgle and their disease mechanic is strong.  But it feels thematic and interesting.  It made me feel VEW could easily be as interesting.

I agree that the faction's unit roles are severely lacking.  To me it just feels like VEW makes it difficult to balance things and to give us other good mechanics or units. 

I agree things won't change much before a new tome and that small changes will be all we will see.  I was just brainstorming for fun

[Sabush]

I think my main issue with kruleboyz is the lack of variety in playstyles.

I think it would be very good to have the possibility to lean into a whole bunch of other strategies. Such as: Ambush, Big scary monsters, Heavy debuffing, Movement shenanigans including slowing down enemies or even pinning them completely.

All of these could quite easily fit thematically as well.

[Ganigumo]

The only problem with VEW is how it skews damage. It's reliant on rolling 5's and 6's, so it makes damage very unreliable. You can't expect to roll average damage with kruleboyz very often and will constantly underperform or overperform, but the math favors underperforming, and the punishment for underperforming is usually much higher than the benefit of overperforming. not killing a unit costs BTs, objectives, and maybe even units, but overkilling one usually doesn't have much benefit.
If VEW is changed it should be to something that can help mitigate this a little, which is why I like it being an additional mortal on a 6. You can still lean into it and stuff like gutrippaz will have swingy damage but then stuff like boltboyz and monsters won't be as reliant on it to deal damage and you can buff them with more traditional means.
 

18 hours ago, Sabush said:

I think my main issue with kruleboyz is the lack of variety in playstyles.

I think it would be very good to have the possibility to lean into a whole bunch of other strategies. Such as: Ambush, Big scary monsters, Heavy debuffing, Movement shenanigans including slowing down enemies or even pinning them completely.

All of these could quite easily fit thematically as well.

Yeah this is a big one for me too, and I think its mostly because of how terrible listbuilding is for the army, and how terrible gutrippaz are. Getting sludgeraker or Vulcha battleline would instantly open up the monster build, and it wouldn't be tough to open up a troggoth build either. Plus we have plenty of good debuffs in the army, they're just locked behind rolling 7s on wizards without bonuses.

[woolf]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

but the math favors underperforming, and the punishment for underperforming is usually much higher than the benefit of overperforming. not killing a unit costs BTs, objectives, and maybe even units, but overkilling one usually doesn't have much benefit.

great insight spot on

[Vasshpit]

I'm still an advocate of changing VEW to wound rolls of 6. (Make it additional even). This fits thematically as well as its damage from poison and not the skill of the warrior. It would allow regular damage stats to be buffed a bit to compensate for a few less mortals. 

It would also allow this to be a "theme" of the army but not an all encompassing one. 

Regardless I'm still excited for the future when looking at newer tomes and rules that have come out. 

Edit: I also feel this army would greatly benefit from the new "hero attachment " mechanics coming from 40k 10th. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Vasshpit

[woolf]

guys I have a new theory, could it be that they playtest batches of battletomes? so we don't actually have battletome power creep, we rather have "batch-creep". so eg idobeth and FS were part of an earlier batch while, KO, HoS, BoK, OBR, SBGL were all tested together and mainly against each other, hence they kinda stack up between themselves but as a group they are just stronger than the older books?