Dietzen Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 Hello all New to the forum, but I've seen a lot of lists taking the Amulet of Destiny as their one and only artifact, unfortunately you cannot do this Unfortunately they removed the clause in the battletome that directs you to take a command trait and/or artifact from the book first, and wrote it directly into the Core Rules in section 27.4. I've talked to a GW representative that confirmed this to be how it works. So basically the new rules states if you have a sub-faction (and yes bloodlines are subfactions) that has any command traits and/or artifacts available, then you have to pick from any available as your first trait and artifact, before being able to take any others. Just wanted to let ya'll know 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 (edited) I did initially agree with you, however that's not actually what the Core Rules say. They say if the sub allegiance lists "an" artefact or "a" command trait, then you must take them as your first choice. Our allegiances list several artefacts. This has been discussed on these forums and various other social media sites on several occasions, and the general conclusion has been the opposite of what you are saying. Do you mind disclosing who this "GW representative" is, are they one of the rules team from HQ? Edited August 24, 2021 by Liquidsteel 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 27 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said: They say if the sub allegiance lists "an" artefact or "a" command trait, then you must take them as your first choice. Our allegiances list several artefacts. I read this bit as talking about sub factions like some of the Stormcast ones that go "if you're playing as this chamber then you must take the stick of wafflesnaggle". Could well have been me applying logic that isn't there though 🤣 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 It's a valid discussion and the wording is not 100% clear, so ultimately up to TO discretion. In fact there's a tournament I'm going to in October that has done just that - required you to pick a book artefact first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 An is not a singular, it's "is there an option or not" received_4197541316967662.webp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 received_850723108893354.webp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 received_999259824174194.webp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 received_555351455616941.webp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Dietzen said: Hello all New to the forum, but I've seen a lot of lists taking the Amulet of Destiny as their one and only artifact, unfortunately you cannot do this Unfortunately they removed the clause in the battletome that directs you to take a command trait and/or artifact from the book first, and wrote it directly into the Core Rules in section 27.4. I've talked to a GW representative that confirmed this to be how it works. So basically the new rules states if you have a sub-faction (and yes bloodlines are subfactions) that has any command traits and/or artifacts available, then you have to pick from any available as your first trait and artifact, before being able to take any others. Just wanted to let ya'll know If that's their intention they just need to clarify it in an faq (or, more precisely, errata). As it is, the rule applies if the sub faction includes "an" artefact/command trait and requires you to take "that" artefact/command trait, therefore being simply not applicable to subfaction who can pick from a list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 Wrong order sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 9 minutes ago, Dietzen said: Wrong order sorry May I suggest to share in a different format? Something like screenshots maybe? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said: I did initially agree with you, however that's not actually what the Core Rules say. They say if the sub allegiance lists "an" artefact or "a" command trait, then you must take them as your first choice. Our allegiances list several artefacts. This has been discussed on these forums and various other social media sites on several occasions, and the general conclusion has been the opposite of what you are saying. Do you mind disclosing who this "GW representative" is, are they one of the rules team from HQ? The whole a/an is a bit of a stretch argument imo, if I were to say If there is an open restaurant in New York, I'll buy you a full dinner with drinks And I then proceed to say, ha ha there isn't AN open restaurant, there are in fact many, so I don't owe you anything. You'd probably think I'm a downright ******. To devote whether or not there is or isn't an option, doesn't say it had to be a singular choice, but rather is there is an option at all, be out 1, 2 or 6 Also, will have to see if I can get screens in, om my phone atm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 Sure, as I said it's ambiguous. But the consensus in the competitive community here in the UK is that you are free to pick, unless it calls out a specific artefact and trait. There are plenty of examples of this, such as Gristlegore FEC where you MUST take Savage Strike and Ghurish Mawshard. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 Just now, Liquidsteel said: Sure, as I said it's ambiguous. But the consensus in the competitive community here in the UK is that you are free to pick, unless it calls out a specific artefact and trait. There are plenty of examples of this, such as Gristlegore FEC where you MUST take Savage Strike and Ghurish Mawshard. That's why I prefaced the topic by saying that sentence has now moved to the core rules, and I'll wager the same goes for the next battletomes as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 Right, but the wording in the core rules is not the same as the old specific trait and artefact. It is vague and ambiguous. Most events are not in agreement with your interpretation. Who is your GW representative? Someone from the actual rules team or a local store manager? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 Here's the transcript from the GW staff member I was in touch with, sent to my email. Added screenshots. Today’s chat with Brandon Hey Martin, If you’ve got any other questions, feel free to hit reply and continue the conversation. Here’s a copy of your discussion You kriegsbaum@gmail.com Brandon joined the chat Brandon Hello, thanks for getting in touch. How can I help? You Can you see the question I typed in ? Else I'll just copy it down :) Brandon '27.4 mandatory traits/artifacts Are Soulblight subject to this, even though their own battletome does not say so?' This one here? You Yes indeed. You I want to clarify that I'm like 99% sure it affects Soulblight and that they are indeed subfactions, there's just a lot of people saying otherwise You Hello there - I've got a small rules question regarding AoS core rule 27.4 wherein it states if you have a subfaction, and it includes command traits/artifacts you have to chose one of those listed first - there is discussion as to whether or not that includes Soulblight, and if their bloodlines are indeed subfactions. Could you clarify whether or not they are considered subfactions, and whether or not Soulblight has to take a command trait and artifact, before being able to chose one from the core rules? You Also this Brandon From what I can see it would effect them. The Bloodlines fill the role of subfactions and each one possess both its own Command Traits and Artefacts of Power. You And per the core rules you'll have to then take one, before being able to dip into the core ones Brandon Yes that would be the case. You Can this answer be counted as an official standing from GW? So that I can relay the rules standing? Brandon Yes that would be perfectly fine. Bloodlines is the term for the subfactions in this book in the same way Legions are the subfactions in the Bonereapers battletome. You Thank you for clarifying for me :) have a good day :) Brandon You too! Brandon If you have any further queries as well please let me know or get back in touch. You I will. Brandon ended the chat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Dietzen said: Here's the transcript from the GW staff member I was in touch with, sent to my email. Added screenshots. Being a bit mean your response is from a member of GW's customer service team, for them to say it's an official answer is them overstepping it a bit. The only official answers would be from the main studio ideally via an FAQ. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 24 minutes ago, RuneBrush said: Being a bit mean your response is from a member of GW's customer service team, for them to say it's an official answer is them overstepping it a bit. The only official answers would be from the main studio ideally via an FAQ. Yes ofc, I realise it's not the official response, but they are at a helpdesk for rules, and if I have to follow either A) people arguing whether or not a/an only affects singular terms or B) someone at GW, I think I know what I'll follow. In either case people can chose to interpret the rules as they see fit, which they always do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 As RuneBrush said, it's a transcript from customer support who may or may not be fully clued up, and in any case can't be used as a reliable source and not one that anyone "has to follow". You've asked the question in quite a loaded manner also, for what it's worth, stating that core rules say x then asking whether bloodlines are sub allegiances in order to get the confirmation you are seeking. You are free to interpret the rule as you think it is and others can do the same, until GW come out and clarify then it's a grey area and nobody can claim their interpretation to be the only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 16 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said: As RuneBrush said, it's a transcript from customer support who may or may not be fully clued up, and in any case can't be used as a reliable source and not one that anyone "has to follow". You've asked the question in quite a loaded manner also, for what it's worth, stating that core rules say x then asking whether bloodlines are sub allegiances in order to get the confirmation you are seeking. You are free to interpret the rule as you think it is and others can do the same, until GW come out and clarify then it's a grey area and nobody can claim their interpretation to be the only way. Yes I agree, it can be viewed from both sides. Don't think I asked it how you say though, I have to point out the things I want an answer to tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 21 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said: As RuneBrush said, it's a transcript from customer support who may or may not be fully clued up, and in any case can't be used as a reliable source and not one that anyone "has to follow". You've asked the question in quite a loaded manner also, for what it's worth, stating that core rules say x then asking whether bloodlines are sub allegiances in order to get the confirmation you are seeking. You are free to interpret the rule as you think it is and others can do the same, until GW come out and clarify then it's a grey area and nobody can claim their interpretation to be the only way. Also want to point out theres not bias from my end, I just want to figure out what's right or not. If I just wanted to confirm my own preference, I'd have stopped when people say it doesn't affect Soulblight, since I actually do want to take the Amulet of Destiny in a lot of cases, rather than an artifact from the book. Or the generic command trait that gives re-rolls to run & charge, rather than just charge from Avengorii. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Yep and fingers crossed it's addressed in a future FAQ. For what it's worth I also contacted the live support out of curiosity, as I wanted to see if we'd get the same response twice or possibly a contradicting answer, and will paste the conversation below. Have bold/underlined the main bit. I will forward my email over to the FAQ team, though they never actually respond. Hi There, Thanks for the email and your feedback. I'll be sure to forward on your feedback to our rules team to look into but at the same time I would suggest you forward this and any other rules related question to our specific FAQ emails.Unfortunately as a customer service team trained in assisting with order and product related issues, we are not permitted to reply to rules question or offer clarity over how rules can be used. The forge world and greater Games workshop business have dedicated rules team and staff that design and publish all rules and FAQ's. As part of their role here in Games workshop they look over all relevant emails submitted in the correct inbox and will consider changes and updates that are necessary and issue them in a future FAQ Any rules questions can be forwarded directly for their attention on the below email address's40kfaq@gwplc.com for 40k FAQ question submissions and feedbackaosfaq@gwplc.com for AoS FAQ submissions and feedbackKillTeam@gwplc.com for Kill Team FAQ submissions and feedbackWhunderworlds@gwplc.com for Shadespire and Nightvault FAQ submissions and feedbackcommunity@gwplc.com for general community-related questions Thanks again! Kind Regards How would you rate my reply?Great Okay Not Good -- Leeanne Elivechat@gwplc.com {#HS:1611440291-800300#} On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 8:58 AM BST, Joe Grzywinski <joe.grzywinski@live.co.uk> wrote: Hello, In section 27.4 of the AoS Core Rules, it states that "If the allegiance abilities for a subfaction include a command trait and the general of your army has the keyword for that subfaction, then that command trait must be the one you give to your general. If the allegiance abilities for a subfaction include an artefact of power and any Heroes in your army have the keyword for that subfaction, then that artefact of power must be the first artefact of power given to one of those Heroes." Is this referring to those sub factions which only give you one choice of Trait and Artefact that MUST be taken (e.g. Gristlegore Flesh Eater Courts), or to all sub factions that give you a range of choices e.g. Kastelai Dynasty Soulblight Gravelords? If it only refers to those that are "locked in" to a particular trait, are those that are free to pick allowed to use the generic command traits and artefacts from the Core Rules, e.g. "master of magic" or "amulet of destiny" as their first picks? Thank you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said: Yep and fingers crossed it's addressed in a future FAQ. For what it's worth I also contacted the live support out of curiosity, as I wanted to see if we'd get the same response twice or possibly a contradicting answer, and will paste the conversation below. Have bold/underlined the main bit. I will forward my email over to the FAQ team, though they never actually respond. Hi There, Thanks for the email and your feedback. I'll be sure to forward on your feedback to our rules team to look into but at the same time I would suggest you forward this and any other rules related question to our specific FAQ emails.Unfortunately as a customer service team trained in assisting with order and product related issues, we are not permitted to reply to rules question or offer clarity over how rules can be used. The forge world and greater Games workshop business have dedicated rules team and staff that design and publish all rules and FAQ's. As part of their role here in Games workshop they look over all relevant emails submitted in the correct inbox and will consider changes and updates that are necessary and issue them in a future FAQ Any rules questions can be forwarded directly for their attention on the below email address's40kfaq@gwplc.com for 40k FAQ question submissions and feedbackaosfaq@gwplc.com for AoS FAQ submissions and feedbackKillTeam@gwplc.com for Kill Team FAQ submissions and feedbackWhunderworlds@gwplc.com for Shadespire and Nightvault FAQ submissions and feedbackcommunity@gwplc.com for general community-related questions Thanks again! Kind Regards How would you rate my reply?Great Okay Not Good -- Leeanne Elivechat@gwplc.com {#HS:1611440291-800300#} On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 8:58 AM BST, Joe Grzywinski <joe.grzywinski@live.co.uk> wrote: Hello, In section 27.4 of the AoS Core Rules, it states that "If the allegiance abilities for a subfaction include a command trait and the general of your army has the keyword for that subfaction, then that command trait must be the one you give to your general. If the allegiance abilities for a subfaction include an artefact of power and any Heroes in your army have the keyword for that subfaction, then that artefact of power must be the first artefact of power given to one of those Heroes." Is this referring to those sub factions which only give you one choice of Trait and Artefact that MUST be taken (e.g. Gristlegore Flesh Eater Courts), or to all sub factions that give you a range of choices e.g. Kastelai Dynasty Soulblight Gravelords? If it only refers to those that are "locked in" to a particular trait, are those that are free to pick allowed to use the generic command traits and artefacts from the Core Rules, e.g. "master of magic" or "amulet of destiny" as their first picks? Thank you! It looks like you got them at a point where their rules help desk wasn't open? Because when you live chat with them, they will be able to answer questions regarding the rules. There's even a banner in the AOS page (at least there was) that said something in the lines of "for questions regarding rules or.... something click the chat bubble" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidsteel Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Yes I saw that banner, it does say that, and I clicked the respective chat bubble and asked my question. I don't think there is a specific "rules help desk", it's just the customer service team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietzen Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said: Yes I saw that banner, it does say that, and I clicked the respective chat bubble and asked my question. I don't think there is a specific "rules help desk", it's just the customer service team. Oh sure it might just be their customer service team, but unfortunately atm they aren't open for direct chat, so can't verify like you wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.