AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[Derek]

@Chronos  even if you flip the tides,  the king can still pop his ability turn 3.  So you’re still getting 3 combat phases of fight first.  Plus all those bonus attacks. 

[Liquidsteel]

4 hours ago, Derek said:

@Chronos  even if you flip the tides,  the king can still pop his ability turn 3.  So you’re still getting 3 combat phases of fight first.  Plus all those bonus attacks. 

You can't take two Command Traits is his point. If you opt for Teachings of Turscol in order to flip the tides, you cannot have Unstoppable Fury for bonus attacks in High Tide.

[Chronos]

8 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

You can't take two Command Traits is his point. If you opt for Teachings of Turscol in order to flip the tides, you cannot have Unstoppable Fury for bonus attacks in High Tide.

Yeah, so you lose out on the blender King, but he still does good damage without, and can get the fight first in the first turn if you want, or third.

Too bad Volty's ability is only once per battle!

[Derek]

Yea didn’t think what I was saying through lol.  Well I guess it’s worth a game or two to test out how it will work but I honestly don’t know that flipping the tides is useful in most games.  
 

after reading some updates for daughters of khaine and thinking about a couple of other armies I think the net launcher is going to be a very necessary thing to use in games.  Stopping pile-ins on a clutch combat is going to be amazing.  

[DocKeule]

With a fast army it could still work I think. 

New tournament comin up the weekend after Easter and I am going to try something with fake Aetherwings I am going to build with the creatures from the ships. 

The deadline for the list is tomorrow and I am still debating two options.

The basic idea is the same: The Aetherwings are there to shield the Thralls instead of the Thralls shielding everybody else and die before they make it into melee or maybe charge in first to take unleash hell from units like dragons etc. In short: They are there do die.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Nautilar

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*

Battleline
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
Akhelian Leviadon (500)*
- Mount Trait: Ancient

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 195 / 400
Wounds: 98
Drops: 3
 

This is the one I am favouring at the moment. I would like to bring a turtle again because I love the model and there is the potencial for extra points. Everyone in the army (exept for the Aetherwings) benefits from the void drum.

This list would be mobile, include a decent amount of shooting and I would hope the Thralls would get at least one charge in each.

Also not sure if I should got with the Arcane Tome or rather give the King the Amulet for at least a 6+ ward.



The alternative would be a little less shooty switching the Leviadon for six Morrsarr and 10 reinforcing one of the Thrall units. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*

Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)**
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Namarti Thralls (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 195 / 400
Wounds: 116
Drops: 4

So here I would have some more bodies on the table and finally have 2000 points on the nose.

[wolyhammer]

18 hours ago, DocKeule said:

The alternative would be a little less shooty switching the Leviadon for six Morrsarr and 10 reinforcing one of the Thrall units. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*

Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)**
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Namarti Thralls (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
- Allies

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 195 / 400
Wounds: 116
Drops: 4

So here I would have some more bodies on the table and finally have 2000 points on the nose.

I'm thinking of trying a unit of 10 and 20 Thralls too. First 10 would be the first wave then the 20 would be the (hopefully) killing blow.

[wolyhammer]

I've managed to stock up on a good few Namarti now, all ready to die for their enclave.

I've 30 Thralls and 20 Reavers, till I eventually get a Leviadon I'm going to try and run them all in a list.

What's the best hero combo to run with them, obviously Lotan, Thrallmaster and Soulrender would be the three, but if you had to pick two from them what is the consensus? Or is it that any combination of two would work?

[Liquidsteel]

Probably Soulrender + Thrallmaster, in Morphann.

[DocKeule]

48 minutes ago, wolyhammer said:

I'm thinking of trying a unit of 10 and 20 Thralls too. First 10 would be the first wave then the 20 would be the (hopefully) killing blow.

In my case that would be more out of necessity to not have an additional drop. But 20 Thralls increase the chance to get some attacks in. 

Lotann is great now, not only for Namarti. (Problem with Akhelians is to keep up though.). Thrallmaster does very little for Reavers. Not sure if 30 Thralls are enough to redeem the 110 points. The Soulrender has the same problem. There needs to be a Namarti unit that is hurt but at the same time there is enough left at the end of the battleshock phase to bring back models to.  

[wolyhammer]

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

In my case that would be more out of necessity to not have an additional drop. But 20 Thralls increase the chance to get some attacks in. 

Lotann is great now, not only for Namarti. (Problem with Akhelians is to keep up though.). Thrallmaster does very little for Reavers. Not sure if 30 Thralls are enough to redeem the 110 points. The Soulrender has the same problem. There needs to be a Namarti unit that is hurt but at the same time there is enough left at the end of the battleshock phase to bring back models to.  

Thanks,

Yeah Lotan is a great addition now. The rest of my army is two Allopexes, 6 Morrsarr Guard and a King.

I think I'll play around with 2 units of Reavers, 20 Thralls (either reinforced or two 10s) and what I have above for a bit, trying different Isharann combinations.

Definitely agree the one drop is nice for Idoneth, but my play it more to get a playable list rather than competitive to start off.

I love there is a great variety of builds now for the army, people are starting to get to grips with the new book, hopefully we'll see some points drops at some stage too. 

[Liquidsteel]

So the Hampshire GT took place in the UK this weekend, used to be called the South Coast GT, had over 100 players and most of the "top" players in the UK attended. I didn't go but I kept an eye on the lists and the placings.

Deepkin made up around 10 lists or so, with 3 players finishing 4-1 and several 3-2. The top 3 which finished 5-0 were Seraphon, Nurgle and Legion of the First Prince.

I'll share the 4-1 lists below, all used the Leviadon and varying amount of Allopexes which was fantastic to see!

I believe Tom Mawdsley is looking to tweak his list to include more bodies next time, will be interesting to see which direction he takes it. 

Russ Veal (Facehammer presenter) - Mor'Phann - 10th Place

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Mor'Phann
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (325)*
- Artefact: Bio-Shock Shell
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides
Isharann Soulrender (120)*
- General
- Command Trait: Teachings of the Turscoll
Akhelian Thrallmaster (110)*

Battleline
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (165)*
- Razorshell Harpoon

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (500)*
- Mount Trait: Reverberating Carapace

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
Drops: 1

Tom Mawdsley (Team England) Fuethan - 11th Place

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Isharann Soulrender (120)**
- General
- Command Trait: Teachings of the Turscoll  
- Artefact: Rune of the Surging Gloomtide  

Battleline
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)**
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)**

Units
1 x Bloodthirsty Shiver Akhelian Allopex(165)**
1 x Bloodthirsty Shiver Akhelian Allopex(165)**
1 x Bloodthirsty Shiver Akhelian Allopex(165)**
1 x Bloodthirsty Shiver Akhelian Allopex(165)*
1 x Bloodthirsty Shiver Akhelian Allopex(165)*
1 x Bloodthirsty Shiver Akhelian Allopex(165)*

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (500)**

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 5

Mike Whitley - Fuethan - 23rd

Spoiler

Mike Whitley

 - Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin - Subfaction: Fuethán - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line - Triumph: InspiredLEADERSIsharann Soulrender (120)*Akhelian King (250)** - General - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury - Bladed Polearm and Falchion - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome - Spells: Flaming WeaponMount trait: voidchill darknessBATTLELINENamarti Reavers (170)*Namarti Thralls (130)*Namarti Reavers (170)*Akhelian Allopexes (165)** - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and BladesAkhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)** - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and BladesAkhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)** - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and BladesAkhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)** - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and BladesBEHEMOTHAkhelian Leviadon (500)**Mount trait: ancientTERRAIN1 x Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)
CORE BATTALIONS -  *Battle Regiment -  **Battle RegimentTOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000
Drops 2.Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

 

[vinnyt]

Don't forget Indystorm, where IDK went 4-0-1 and got 2nd place with the following Fuethan list:

 

Blender King

Tidecaster

Scinari Loreseeker!!!

 

20 Thralls

10 Thralls

3x2 Sharks 

 

A 4-1 Ionrach list was:

Caster with reverse tides

King

Volturnos

 

20 Thralls

10 Thralls

10 Reavers

6 Morrsarr

 

2 Sharks 

 

 

So it seems like sharks are doing juuuust fine. Super happy about the variety of lists we're seeing do well and it seems like there's still a lot of design space to explore!

[Derek]

Thinking about taking this list this week against the sky dwarves.    Not sure it’ll work out but I think it’s gonna be fun. 
 

 

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Fuethán
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Inspired

LEADER

Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Sea (325)
    - Spells: Steed of Tides

Isharann Tidecaster (150)
    - Spells: Ghost-mist

Akhelian King (250)
    - General
    - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
    - Artefacts: Arcane Tome
    - Mount Traits: Voidchill Darkness
    - Spells: Flaming Weapon

Akhelian King (250)
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion

BATTLELINE

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (Bloodthirsty Shiver) (165)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

2 x Akhelian Allopexes (495)
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

TOTAL POINTS: (1965/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

[That Guy]

Made a list for Ionrach that includes the Incarnate linked to a Sea Eidolon. I’m not sure to give the Eidolon general for the potential extra casts or to keep the unstoppable fury king. As for a Grand Strategy i think about “Beast Master” or the new “Lord of Incarnate” which basically requires you to keep your Eidolon alive in order to get it done(The incarnate cannot revert to its wild form). There is even the option to go for a 2 drop instead of a 1 drop and include the “Incarnate Masters of Ghur” battalion, which makes it so that the Incarnate doesn’t revert until all included units in the battalion are slain.

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Ionrach
    - Grand Strategy: Lord of Incarnates

LEADER

Akhelian King (250)*
    - General
    - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
    - Mount Traits: Voidchill Darkness

Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Sea (325)*
    - Spells: Steed of Tides
    - Enhancement: Krondspine Incarnate

Lotann (115)*

BATTLELINE

1 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*

1 x Namarti Thralls (260)*

Namarti Thralls (130)*

Namarti Thralls (130)*

BEHEMOTH

Krondspine Incarnate (400)*
  - Bond: Eidolon of the Sea

TERRAIN

Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Edited April 14, 2022 by That Guy

[Derek]

@That Guy  remember that you can only access that battalion you’re talking about if you and your opponent agree to play that battle pack.     I’m still not sure the incarnate is worth the points.  But I guess time will tell. 

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, Derek said:

@That Guy  remember that you can only access that battalion you’re talking about if you and your opponent agree to play that battle pack.     I’m still not sure the incarnate is worth the points.  But I guess time will tell. 

I didn't buy it yet, but I think I will. I also need an update to my table at home. I've been playing 3 of the same settings on my table for years now. Only last year did I buy:

 

Which in size is close to a 2000p battlefield. I'd like to expand it with the realmscape box perhaps and have another field to play on.

When it comes to competitive play, I think people will just allow you to use those rules? Why would someone deny you from playing with new rules specifically made for matched play?

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by That Guy

[Derek]

It’s locked to the battlepack.   If you picked the thondia specific battle pack you would lose out on hunters of the heartlands and alpha beast pack in favor of the reworded ones for the specific battlepack.  Warhammer weekly did a review of the book.  You can still use the incarnate just not that specific battalion.

[DocKeule]

17 hours ago, That Guy said:

When it comes to competitive play, I think people will just allow you to use those rules? Why would someone deny you from playing with new rules specifically made for matched play?

Because it isn't even close to being balanced and would diminish their chance of winning.

Just as the warscroll battalions this stuff is not made for matched play but for narrative play with points.

[That Guy]

3 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Because it isn't even close to being balanced and would diminish their chance of winning.

Just as the warscroll battalions this stuff is not made for matched play but for narrative play with points.

Lol, except it’s not. That’s why there’s different sections including a Matched Play section. Also I don’t know in what environment you play, but I’ve never once met a person as cringy as you describe. They’ve always let me play with whatever I brought. On tournaments if I brought something special like a legends unit, I first checked it with the TO, before I brought it. The worst situation I came in was that someone denied me using a proxy model once, because it was slightly shorter than the original. This was at a bigger tournament and I solved it by just swapping it with the original. But not once did I get denied to use alternative rules if they were available for use in Matched Play and the TO. Okayed them. Outside of tournaments everything is always fine. I never cheese my way with half an army of legend models. Nor is is that good to do. I’ll tell you once someone denies me to use the krondspine under the Matched Play designed rules, when a TO okays it, or outside of a tournament. You’ll be waiting for a while. You must be surrounded with bitter neckbeards, I feel sorry for you.

[Derek]

@That Guy   I wasn’t saying you couldn’t use the incarnate,   Just the battalion you spoke of. It’s locked to the battlepack.   It’s why when you look at the core rules they say you refer to your battlepack and that will tell you what you can include in your lists I.e.  battalions and things like that.     I don’t rate the incarnate because you run into the possibility of oh hey my opponent wiped my hero who’s bonded to it and well ****** I’m dead.   So time will tell how it’ll play out but hey.

[That Guy]

34 minutes ago, Derek said:

@That Guy   I wasn’t saying you couldn’t use the incarnate,   Just the battalion you spoke of. It’s locked to the battlepack.   It’s why when you look at the core rules they say you refer to your battlepack and that will tell you what you can include in your lists I.e.  battalions and things like that.     I don’t rate the incarnate because you run into the possibility of oh hey my opponent wiped my hero who’s bonded to it and well ****** I’m dead.   So time will tell how it’ll play out but hey.

You stIll get to control the Incarnate and it’s movement. He gets stronger, because it gains +1 to hit rolls and run + charge in its Wild Form. The downside is that if a unit or endless spell is within charge distance you are forced to charge. I believe it’s also affected by its own Inflamed Savagery ability. Meaning you now have a Monster that has fly with 12” move and a re-rollable run and re-rollable charge. That’s a very reliable 20”+ move and charge with fly, solid imo. The battalion is likely only useful if you want to get the Lord of Incarnate GS to succeed, but in any other case, perhaps it’s a bit of a trap. Him going wild, might just be a boon. So in case of only taking the incarnate, I’m down for that too. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by That Guy

[Derek]

@That Guy   And that right there.  If there’s a unit or endless spells in range you have to charge with the incarnate.  It might not be as huge of a deal with deepkin but overall I think it’s a massive risk to potentially watch my own 400 point unit potentially devastate my own army,  like I said time will tell,  but ultimately I don’t think the incarnate is going to see the table unless we hit a heavy endless spell meta.  

[That Guy]

45 minutes ago, Derek said:

@That Guy   And that right there.  If there’s a unit or endless spells in range you have to charge with the incarnate.  It might not be as huge of a deal with deepkin but overall I think it’s a massive risk to potentially watch my own 400 point unit potentially devastate my own army,  like I said time will tell,  but ultimately I don’t think the incarnate is going to see the table unless we hit a heavy endless spell meta.  

The check is made at the start of your charge phase, only yours. You still have full control of the incarnates movement. It is so fast and can move over anything. The chance you have to charge your own units is so minimal, I would almost not worry about it at all. You can constantly keep it on opponent flanks while always keeping 1 enemy unit in range. Even if everything around it is killed, you still get to move it. If your entire army is there, you can just move it away 12" + run. Most likely it'll be outside of charge range. In most cases you'll just be able to throw it into enemy units though about 9/10. It really isn't the biggest of deals. Especially since it becomes a wrecking ball when wild, you can play on the risk reward, with the reward far outweighing the risk with this one.

Edited April 16, 2022 by That Guy

[Liquidsteel]

You still get to move it in your turn. I think it will be a strong choice and you'll see it even if endless aren't around.

It also levels up on monsters, which are everywhere.

[vinnyt]

Incarnate is excellent in deepkin, imo. It almost single-handedly solves our problem with the oops-all-dragons army lists you see everywhere. Chuck it into a unit of 4 and watch as it never dies and kills the unit over a couple phases. Or chuck it into characters. Or chuck it into any big beasty. 

It's an extremely flexible little addition that I think really shines in Ionrach. Just gotta be careful to not accidentally trap your morrsarr in combat but that's not too tough to manage. 

 

And @That Guy is correct. The bonded hero dying is basically only a minor inconvenience since you can absolutely line it up against whatever target you want. 12" move. rr runs, and rr charges is plenty of mobility. 

 

Oh, you're absolutely going to see it everywhere because 3 gatebreakers and the incarnate is 1975 points and simply S L A P S people.