General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[Ratboy genius]

GW has done warscroll rewrites to nerf and change the way units have worked before, so i'm sure their rewrite are coming any second now.

[Ragest]

4 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Yeah, but the competitive ones are, and it's worse than with any other army. Telling people not to abuse the rules is never going to be a very good solution for abusable rules. 

The LRL tome is just weird, it feels like a book written for a different game than any other book. It's always going to provoke a lot of negative feeling for that reason. 

Every competitive army provides a negative experience for the opponent, because that's how competitive enviorement works.

Kroak far away doing mortals and unbinding what he wants with skinks running away and teleporting sallys, dwarfs having the most powercreeped unit in the game having a 4++ ward and doing 2 aditional MW on 6, Kharadron moving where they want, shooting what they want and dropping one of the most powerful endless for free, eels that are unrendable, gaining +2 save and rerolling 1s with a full army controlling the shooting phase and some dudes in dr with +3" to charge and throwing MW, horrors being 50 wounds with Kairos dealing 6MW almost for free and archaon rerolling everything with +1Hit/+1Wound/+1Attack/+1Save and making autocharges from 12" away and instakilling every hero, the old DoK teleporting 20 Stalkers with double tap making 80 attacks with MW at 6...

Every competitive army is a pain, is boring to play against, is extremely overpowered and almost auto.

So why everyone focus on Lumineth?

Edited June 24, 2021 by Ragest

[yukishiro1]

That seems like a straw man. I don't know anyone who focuses only on LRL. 

But the statement that all competitive armies are equally a pain to play against isn't true. The fact that you are citing other armies with powerful units is sorta telling - you're citing power, not the degree to which the army makes you unable to play with your guys. What causes LRL to be more disliked than other factions isn't the power level, it's the degree to which you feel like you can't really do anything with your guys - even when you win, which is quite an extraordinary thing to have "accomplished" from a design perspective. Playing against a competitive LRL army often feels like being the NPC - doesn't mean you can't win, NPCs win all the time, but that doesn't make it satisfying. People don't play wargames to not be able to do all the cool stuff their army can do, whether they end up winning or not. 

A control army is just a bad archetype for wargaming, it was a mistake from a design point of view to go so far in that direction with LRL, and it's the direct reason they are so disliked. 

To give a concrete example of good vs bad wargaming design - suppose that Tzeentch got destiny dice that could be used not to substitute for their own rolls, but for someone else's rolls instead. Although the total power of the effect might not be all that different, people's hate for the mechanic would triple or quadruple, because your opponent being able to auto-pass a charge is not nearly as frustrating as being able to make you auto-fail a charge. LRL's design veers too far into the "stop the other dude from being able to do stuff," it's the primary thing people don't like about it. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Ragest]

Yes nobody focuses on Lumineth, I'm going to comment that on the "General Idoneth Deepkin Rules Discussion".

[yukishiro1]

You're puzzled about why a thread titled "General Lumineth Realm Lords Discussion" is about LRL and not IDK? 

I mean that's a funny example, we've had literally years and years of people complaining about eels, which continues through to the present day. Thereby illustrating that in fact no, people don't only focus on LRL.

If you want to start a thread about IDK, go for it, nobody's stopping you. It's not really an effective response to a thread about LRL to complain that people should be talking about something else instead, it just feels like a "look over there!" sort of thing. 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by yukishiro1

[whispersofblood]

6 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

You're puzzled about why a thread titled "General Lumineth Realm Lords Discussion" is about LRL and not IDK? 

I mean that's a funny example, we've had literally years and years of people complaining about eels, which continues through to the present day. Thereby illustrating that in fact no, people don't only focus on LRL.

If you want to start a thread about IDK, go for it, nobody's stopping you. It's not really an effective response to a thread about LRL to complain that people should be talking about something else instead, it just feels like a "look over there!" sort of thing. 

 

His point is that such a thread exists for LRL and seemingly never has for any other faction. 

Just as an FYI DoT do have the power to change one of their opponent's die rolls.

I've also drawn the distinction between being able to have your army do what it does, and having your army buff the thing that it does. LRL interact with the second not the first. It's also now an ability they share with anyone who can cast a spell.

Last we have posters talking at cross purposes across threads. Here is Sentinels aren't OP but NPE. In the various AoS 3.0 threads Sentinels are oppressive and shooting needs a massive rework. 

The truth is Sentinels outside of skewing into 60(which is probably the real cap), are good at one thing and ok at applying dmg at range. They are really good at seemingly putting the fear of God into the opponent. The best way to deal with 20/30 Sentinels is to not worry too much about them, and play your game.

[whispersofblood]

17 hours ago, Enoby said:

While I don't really have a horse in the Lumineth race, I do think your points may be taken more readily if you provided some evidence (or examples where evidence can't be provided)  

I know evidence, especially for vague things like NPE, can be very hard to come by. But more for things like "BoC are good but no one plays them correctly so the general consensus is that they're bad" - it's not that I disagree with you (in fact, I think Hedonites are a lot better than some give them credit for), but I think people would be more willing to agree if you pointed to a tournament winning BoC or HoS list (though I appreciate that's hard to do in Covid times). 

It seems the general 'argument' isn't that Lumineth is too strong, but rather Lumineth is unfun to play against. As I understand it, your point is that people should learn to play against them better, seeing these events of "NPE" as opportunities to strategize rather than actual negative experiences (apologies if this misconstrues your argument, this is just what I'm getting from it). I think this is going to struggle to convince people who don't find it fun to play Lumineth, same as saying "BoC are actually good" (without pointing to winning lists) wouldn't likely convince someone that they are. 

I know it's very difficult to do, but could you provide an example (doesn't have to be real) of how people could enjoy the parts of Lumineth they claim not to? For example, how someone could enjoy/strategize against their bloodthirster being shot off the board turn 1 by sentinels. I don't mean "why this isn't overpowered", but rather how the average player would enjoy/learn from this experience. It looks like the crux of the issue isn't strength, but just "yeah, I can win, but I don't enjoy doing so". 

As an aside, I would be interested in seeing your winning HoS list and if you've had a chance to test it yet? I'm not expecting any big write ups, but a small report would be appreciated

Oh I realise I didn't respond to the bit about BoC, and why I brought them up to begin with.

Most people think about armies the same way they think about a sandwich. A bunch of ingredients between two buns. When really you need to think about an army and particularly a fixed army list like a multicourse meal. Each course needs to be carefully selected based on the limitations imposed on it by previous choices. 

If you want to take 3 mawcrushers in a list (which might be a list in AoS 3) you need to be able to lock down at least one, but preferably 2 objectives for under 250 points. That's a big ask, but it is a consequence of wanting to include 3 very resource greedy models. 

Too often the conversation around factions, (especially when the group says a faction is bad) is what this faction can't do which others can do. When a much more productive conversation is "What can I do with this faction?" Now singularly playing a faction often gives you credibility as you have experience but more often just generates tunnel vision, resent and oddly previlage. 

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

Not sure why I'm needing to clarify this, but firstly please refrain from being rude to each other.  If you feel aggrieved by a comment there's a report button next to posts where you can flag it up to the mods.  I don't expect to read members taking virtual swipes at each other.

[yukishiro1]

8 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

His point is that such a thread exists for LRL and seemingly never has for any other faction. 

I very much doubt that's true. With the amount of griping that's gone on over the years about eels (not my example, even), I would be shocked if there hasn't been a thread about them previously. But even if so...so what? Why would that impact the discussion one way or the other? If it's just meant to be an insinuation that anyone who thinks there are issues with LRL design is somehow specifically biased against LRL for some unspecified reason, that seems like a "point" that doesn't lead anywhere. If there's some other relevance there, I'm not seeing it? 

[whispersofblood]

6 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

I very much doubt that's true. With the amount of griping that's gone on over the years about eels (not my example, even), I would be shocked if there hasn't been a thread about them previously. But even if so...so what? Why would that impact the discussion one way or the other? If it's just meant to be an insinuation that anyone who thinks there are issues with LRL design is somehow specifically biased against LRL for some unspecified reason, that seems like a "point" that doesn't lead anywhere. If there's some other relevance there, I'm not seeing it? 

You'll have to check with the poster as they what they were insinuating. I was just clarifying the point, and providing examples which either steelmaned or countered the arguments there after.