Blacksmoke Battery is good. Fight me.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

Again Nagash isn't a great scenario  since he can likely eat multiple cannonballs.  Bloodthirsters or Keeper of Secrets are probably ideal monstrous targets. But truly elite infantry would be best

I agree regarding elite infantry being the best target. Maybe this is local, but I think it’s quite general, big hero monsters always come with the ethereal amulet. Which really hurts the cannons. 

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

I agree regarding elite infantry being the best target. Maybe this is local, but I think it’s quite general, big hero monsters always come with the ethereal amulet. Which really hurts the cannons. 

I don't think I have ever seen the Ethereal amulet in play around here.

Not sure why. I mean its solid for sure. But many are getting locked into subfaction artefacts. The most common Realm artefact in my meta is probably the Gryph Feather Charm.

 

[Kramer]

3 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Not sure why. I mean its solid for sure. But many are getting locked into subfaction artefacts. The most common Realm artefact in my meta is probably the Gryph Feather Charm.

Give it a month if you actually get that shooting to work  

[swarmofseals]

Even with the engineer and the +1 to hit for the gyro, Cannon damage efficiency is mediocre.  It's not terrible by any stretch, but compared to other Cities options it's just worse.

@Kramer OK I gotta bite on this one. I don't buy that every Order army that can take Kroak will. Outside of Seraphon he will only have +1 to cast/unbind/dispel, he won't be able to teleport, so using a Balewind Vortex will be very awkward. He's good at unbinding, but Order has plenty of options for that and with only +1 he won't be able to unbind effectively against real heavy casters like Hallowheart, Nagash, Seraphon Kroak etc. Second and third castings of Celestial Deliverance will be very dicey and other heavy casting armies will unbind him easily. He's nice, and I could see some non-Seraphon lists wanting him but auto-include seems like a big stretch.

[Ajmaus]

Don't have my book next to me but I am pretty sure that

Meecs always count as allies so the cog Smith can't be sitting outside if the 400 point limit he's not a CoS unit. It's in the Merc section to address a fec player or a fyreslayers player from trying to take an entire army of the Merc company. (Otherwise they could)

Also remember allies even if they have the correct keywords do not gain bonuses from any alligience abilities that's in the ally section

 

[Kramer]

5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@Kramer OK I gotta bite on this one. I don't buy that every Order army that can take Kroak will. Outside of Seraphon he will only have +1 to cast/unbind/dispel, he won't be able to teleport, so using a Balewind Vortex will be very awkward. He's good at unbinding, but Order has plenty of options for that and with only +1 he won't be able to unbind effectively against real heavy casters like Hallowheart, Nagash, Seraphon Kroak etc. Second and third castings of Celestial Deliverance will be very dicey and other heavy casting armies will unbind him easily. He's nice, and I could see some non-Seraphon lists wanting him but auto-include seems like a big stretch.

We’ll see. But why do you skip past: 

0-3 command points a turn

Comet with its unlimited range. 

instead of balewind you can take spell portal for the range issue if you really want 

4 casts, on a survivable character, for only 320pts. Can’t get much better than that  

That plus 1 goes for endless spells as well. 

regarding your points. Most of them valid but the argument ‘against a real heavy magic army’ falls a bit flat to me. 
Of course a single ally model won’t be able to take on an army dedicated to it. wouldn’t be good for the game if he could. 

the bigger argument is who can actually ally in kraok? I thought cities could, but they can’t so what is left that can? In stormcast he’s going to be very useful but that won’t elevate the army to tournament winners Would be my guess. So what armies can? In the end we’ll just have to see. 

(can I also add the threat is titled ‘fight me’ so every argument seems to be a big right hook in the thread. It’s all a bit hyperbolic) 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Kramer

[zilberfrid]

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

We’ll see. But why do you skip past: 

0-3 command points a turn

Comet with its unlimited range. 

instead of balewind you can take spell portal for the range issue if you really want 

4 casts, on a survivable character, for only 320pts. Can’t get much better than that  

That plus 1 goes for endless spells as well. 

regarding your points. Most of them valid but the argument ‘against a real heavy magic army’ falls a bit flat to me. 
Of course a single ally model won’t be able to take on an army dedicated to it. wouldn’t be good for the game if he could. 

the bigger argument is who can actually ally in kraok? I thought cities could, but they can’t so what is left that can? In stormcast he’s going to be very useful but that won’t elevate the army to tournament winners Would be my guess. So what armies can? In the end we’ll just have to see. 

(can I also add the threat is titled ‘fight me’ so every argument seems to be a big right hook in the thread. It’s all a bit hyperbolic) 

So I just checked, of all factions per GHB2019, only Stormcast can take Seraphon as allies. That's not going to shake up any other lists.

Edited May 21, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Double Misfire]

Hey, it's almost like I wrote an article on getting the most out of these guys:

https://www.doublemisfire.com/2019/11/guide-blacksmoke-battery-mercenary.html

 

In short yeah, they're pretty competitive. If you're up against an opponent with absolutely no way of doing three wounds at medium-long range

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

So I just checked, of all factions per GHB2019, only Stormcast can take Seraphon as allies. That's not going to shake up any other lists.

That diminishes the impacted bigly  

Edited May 21, 2020 by Kramer

[Landohammer]

8 hours ago, Ajmaus said:

Don't have my book next to me but I am pretty sure that

Meecs always count as allies so the cog Smith can't be sitting outside if the 400 point limit he's not a CoS unit. It's in the Merc section to address a fec player or a fyreslayers player from trying to take an entire army of the Merc company. (Otherwise they could)

Also remember allies even if they have the correct keywords do not gain bonuses from any alligience abilities that's in the ally section

 

 You take the Cogsmith as a cities unit, but take the cannons and Gyro as mercenaries. The Cannons don't actually care where the Cogsmith (or any Engineer for that matter) comes from. In fact, taking the Cogsmith from Cities and making him your general is actually pretty smart since he provides battleline unlocks (Irondrakes I think?). I like taking him in Living City armies and making him a wizard. Thats a lot of value for 60pts! 

It does become a problem in non-cities armies though, since the Cogsmith is absolutely crucial. In that case I would just drop the Gyrocopter and take 2 cannons + a cogsmith as allies. 

3 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Hey, it's almost like I wrote an article on getting the most out of these guys:

https://www.doublemisfire.com/2019/11/guide-blacksmoke-battery-mercenary.html

 

In short yeah, they're pretty competitive. If you're up against an opponent with absolutely no way of doing three wounds at medium-long range

Awesome. I looking forwarding to reading it! 

 

@ Everyone

I think most armies have some kind of ranged threat, but outside of dedicated shooting armies its usually pretty limited. I am currently  fielding my Blacksmoke Battery company in very aggressive melee armies. All of these units are going to be pushed forward aggressively looking for targets. 

The cannon is obviously the low hanging fruit, but it may not be the target chosen by many opponents  when  30 Hammerers of 6 Kurnoth Hunters are bearing down on them.

Using Khorne as an example:  How many times have you shot or cast spells at Skull Cannons? I play vs Khorne ALOT and I have never targeted Skull Cannons with ranged weapons despite them being a (relatively) soft target in the army.  You target Bloodthirsters.

 

 

[swarmofseals]

@Kramer I had forgotten about the CP generation. I'll concede that could make a big difference if a faction is really hungry for CP.

My point about armies that are heavier in magic is based on the idea that you get a significant benefit from having magic superiority in a given game, but the more points you spend on magic without having magic superiority is a huge handicap. Kroak is expensive enough (especially with spellportal) that he's going to be a rock in your pocket in any matchup with real, serious magic. In a tournament setting, those matchups will come up often enough that if you are trying to go 3-0 or 5-0 then it may not be a great idea to spend 300-400 points on something that will be all but useless in one or two of your games.

Seraphon Kroak gives you magic superiority in almost every matchup, and magic parity in the very few matchups that can rival him for casting power. Ally Kroak gets dominated in quite a few matchups, and only gives magic superiority occasionally.

[Kramer]

8 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@Kramer I had forgotten about the CP generation. I'll concede that could make a big difference if a faction is really hungry for CP.

My point about armies that are heavier in magic is based on the idea that you get a significant benefit from having magic superiority in a given game, but the more points you spend on magic without having magic superiority is a huge handicap. Kroak is expensive enough (especially with spellportal) that he's going to be a rock in your pocket in any matchup with real, serious magic. In a tournament setting, those matchups will come up often enough that if you are trying to go 3-0 or 5-0 then it may not be a great idea to spend 300-400 points on something that will be all but useless in one or two of your games.

Seraphon Kroak gives you magic superiority in almost every matchup, and magic parity in the very few matchups that can rival him for casting power. Ally Kroak gets dominated in quite a few matchups, and only gives magic superiority occasionally.

Fair enough. But I originally only mentioned him as an example of something that will take out the cannons instantly. I will happily admit I was thinking Cities could ally Kroak in so you would see him more often. (and if you could, you would). But you can easily replace the variables with any stormcast wizard with a comet, any grot wizard with that spider spell that appears from any terrain, Mortek Crawlers, etc etc. 

It was an example of how vulnerable the cannon mercs are and for that point investment it's too fragile for competitive play imo. Sure also some armies that it might work against, but that's not the point of a competitive list. Like you argue above for Kroak. But this is just a repeat of earlier arguments. 

Regarding Kroak, which was never really the point, if i'm playing Stormcast or grand alliance order I would still definitely take him. I see your points, but the command points, survivability, limitless range mortal wounds, powerful short range spell and +1 for endless spells, 4 unbinds at +1, it all makes him an excellent hero and ally. But with stormcast you need all the help you can get.