Attacking in the Hero Phase

[thediceabide]

So the Bonesplitterz have a variety of ways to attack in the Hero Phase, which has led to a couple questions regarding abilities that work in the Combat Phase. For the sake of clarity, I'll break it down into smaller questions, and all are assumed to be attacking in the Hero Phase using the Wurrgog Prophet's Command Ability, Prophet of da Waaagh!: "If a Wurrgog Prophet uses this ability, select a BONESPLITTERZ unit within 15". That unit can immediately pile in and attack as if it were the combat phase. This does not prevent the unit from attacking later."

1. If I use this ability on a Savage Big Boss, does this trigger the Let Me At 'Em ability ("After a Savage Big Boss has attacked, you can pick another BONESPLITTERZ unit within 10". That unit can immediately pile in and attack if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and has not yet attacked this combat phase.")?
2. If I use this ability on a unit of Savage Boarboy Maniaks, do they get to use Maniak Fury ("You can pile in and attack with this unit for a second time at the end of each of your own combat phases.")?
3. If I use this ability on on one of my units to attack an enemy unit of Savage Orruks with Bone Shields ("Savage Orruks have a Save of 5+ in the combat phase."), do they get their save bonus?
4. If I use this ability on one of my units to attack an enemy unit of Blood Warriors, can they use No Respite ("If a model from this unit is slain in the combat phase, you can make a pile in move and then attack with the model before you remove it.")?

Basically, do abilities that only work in the combat phase work if you're attacking in the Hero Phase "as if it was the combat phase"?

I'm inclined to say yes to #1 and no to the others, as #1 is true since the combat phase hasn't happened yet, so obviously the unit has not yet attacked this combat phase... But it would be pretty cheeky to have two Savage Big Bosses triggering each other back and forth infinitely.

[amysrevenge]

I would use a slightly different method.  Literal reading.  In all cases, you are attacking as if it was the combat phase.  So for the duration of the attack, the answer to the question "Is it now the combat phase?" is "Yes".

1) Savage Big Boss attacks.  Is it now the combat phase?  Yes.  Ability works, choose another unit to attack.

2) Maniaks attack.  Is it now the combat phase?  Yes.  Does anything trigger on just being in the combat phase?  No.  Maniaks finish their attack and it's back to being the hero phase.  We have not yet reached the end of the combat phase, so no extra attacks.

3) Enemy Savage Orruks are attacked.  Is it now the combat phase?  Yes.  They get their save bonus.

4) Enemy Blood Warriors are killed.  Is it now the combat phase?  Yes.  The get their response attacks.

[amysrevenge]

8 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

My read was based on "That unit may immediately pile-in and attack as if it was the combat phase."

Yeah, and it also gets to use every combat phase relevant ability listed on its warscroll.  If it was Morboys doing the attack, you'd look down to their rules and do a Deff Ride if you're fighting a monster.  If it was Yhetees (hypothetically, this exact ability won't work on them but it's an example), you'd look down in their rules and see about how they get a longer pile in distance.  With a Savage Big Boss, you look down in his rules and see some combat phase abilities, and apply them, since you're attacking as if it's the combat phase.  Doesn't matter what the nature of the rules are - whether it's a Deff Ride, or piling in 6", or giving a nearby unit a bonus attack.  If it's the combat phase, it's the combat phase.  Anything else is finding ways to make "as if it's the combat phase" mean "it's not the combat phase".

[nuttyknatty]

Like some others, I'm reading "as if it's the combat phase", as "it's not the combat phase", and that's how I'd play it (I'll always play anything 'dubious' in favour of my opponent).

That said (and I might be completely contradicting myself here!), how are people playing this extra attack from the Prophet's CA? Does your opponent get to attack back also? I was assuming they didn't?

[thediceabide]

24 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Yeah, even if all you get is more attacks in a row before your opponent gets to go, it's still pretty wicked.

Yeah, Brutal Beast Spirits on a unit of Morboys also buffed by the Kop Rukk suddenly means you've got 2 attacks per model at 3+/2+ & 3+/3+, hitting on 2's if any monsters have been slain during the game.

[amysrevenge]

Yeah, even if all you get is more attacks in a row before your opponent gets to go, it's still pretty wicked.

[thediceabide]

8 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Who has that?  I was flipping through warscrolls before posting that I was unfamiliar...

If that's it, though, then yeah you probably wouldn't get to go again in the Combat phase proper.  But you'd end up being able to have 2 units go before your opponent goes (this one in the Hero phase from the spell, and then your normal first pick in the Combat phase), and that's nothing to sneeze at.

It's part of the Drakkfoot Warclan.

I'm trying to come up with a list that maximizes attacking in the Hero Phase, so figuring out these mechanics and how they're supposed to go down is important so I don't accidentally cheat my friends, haha. Combining a Wurgogg Prophet, Kunnin' Rukk, and this Blood Waaagh! ability are key to the strategy.

[amysrevenge]

Who has that?  I was flipping through warscrolls before posting that I was unfamiliar...

If that's it, though, then yeah you probably wouldn't get to go again in the Combat phase proper.  But you'd end up being able to have 2 units go before your opponent goes (this one in the Hero phase from the spell, and then your normal first pick in the Combat phase), and that's nothing to sneeze at.

[thediceabide]

1 minute ago, amysrevenge said:

I'm not familiar with that one.  But you would definitely need a specific exemption like in the Wurrgog Prophet's command ability, or the Savage Boarboy Maniak ability, in order to be able to attack twice in one combat phase.  And "as if" would count for that, both for good and for ill.

"Blood Waaagh! has a casting value of 8. If successfully cast, pick a BONESPLITTERZ unit within 6". That unit can immediately pile in and attack as if it were the combat phase."

That's the entirety of the text, I'm tempted to think that it was left out as an editorial decision, as there simply isn't room on the Warscroll for another sentence... It would be a pretty weak power if it didn't actually let you attack again in the combat phase.

[amysrevenge]

I'm not familiar with that one.  But you would definitely need a specific exemption like in the Wurrgog Prophet's command ability, or the Savage Boarboy Maniak ability, in order to be able to attack twice in one combat phase.  And "as if" would count for that, both for good and for ill.

[thediceabide]

2 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

That's definitely a fair reading.  When you get to the real combat phase, you wouldn't be able to activate the bonus unit again, because it has already attacked (as if) in the combat phase that turn, without the exemption granted by the ability that the Savage Big Boss benefited from.

That's interesting, and hadn't occurred to me... If attacking "as if it was the combat phase," is the same as attacking in the combat phase, and thus prevents you from attacking in the actual Combat Phase, then it makes some abilities, like the Blood Waaagh! spell is damn near useless, considering it has such a short range and requires an 8+ to cast... I would be surprised if they intended that to prevent you from attacking in the Combat Phase itself.

[amysrevenge]

2 hours ago, Jak Shadow said:

Doesn't, in fact,  in plain English "as if it's the combat phase" mean exactly that? 

Leaving that aside, the Savage Big Boss rule lacks the wording that: "This does not prevent the unit from attacking later".  Presumably that means that if the Boss is able to choose another unit to pile in and attack then it is unable to attack later.

 

That's definitely a fair reading.  When you get to the real combat phase, you wouldn't be able to activate the bonus unit again, because it has already attacked (as if) in the combat phase that turn, without the exemption granted by the ability that the Savage Big Boss benefited from.

[Jak Shadow]

16 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

Anything else is finding ways to make "as if it's the combat phase" mean "it's not the combat phase".

Doesn't, in fact,  in plain English "as if it's the combat phase" mean exactly that? 

Leaving that aside, the Savage Big Boss rule lacks the wording that: "This does not prevent the unit from attacking later".  Presumably that means that if the Boss is able to choose another unit to pile in and attack then it is unable to attack later.

 

[BaldoBeardo]

Yeah, "finding" implies a motive that is more direct than I intend.  Sorry about that.

No worries. [emoji1] I spent more than enough time on Warseer having to count to ten/ignore before responding, would rather just speak up on here.

[amysrevenge]

Yeah, "finding" implies a motive that is more direct than I intend.  Sorry about that.

[BaldoBeardo]

Yeah, and it also gets to use every combat phase relevant ability listed on its warscroll.  If it was Morboys doing the attack, you'd look down to their rules and do a Deff Ride if you're fighting a monster.  If it was Yhetees (hypothetically, this exact ability won't work on them but it's an example), you'd look down in their rules and see about how they get a longer pile in distance.  With a Savage Big Boss, you look down in his rules and see some combat phase abilities, and apply them, since you're attacking as if it's the combat phase.  Doesn't matter what the nature of the rules are - whether it's a Deff Ride, or piling in 6", or giving a nearby unit a bonus attack.  If it's the combat phase, it's the combat phase.  Anything else is finding ways to make "as if it's the combat phase" mean "it's not the combat phase".

"Finding" implies intent to achieve a certain aim.

I misread (or emphasised) the wrong part of the sentence, and that coloured everything else I read.

For the record, I actually think you're right on this, and on further reading I've got it wrong. But I made a mistake, I wasn't looking to ****** on chips.

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[BaldoBeardo]

Try embracing purposive interpretation as an aid to finding out what the rules mean like the legal world and rest of the country has done for 50 years.

That really does read as intentionally offensive.

Purposive doesn't get you very far in technical documentation though, which is what I rely on doing.

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[BaldoBeardo]

It's another one of those cases where some folks are trying to scramble to find ways to make plain statements out to be untrue.  "You can attack as if it were the combat phase - how many ways can we find to make the attack NOT as if it were the combat phase?"

My read was based on "That unit may immediately pile-in and attack as if it was the combat phase."

I don't aim/scramble for any particular result, I obviously drew different conclusions to you, that's fine.

(And if it was a plain statement, wouldn't need asking...[emoji6] )

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[Nico]

On the other points, this seems like trying to stretch the limits of these abilities.

 

On 3:

 

Quote

"3)This one's trickier. The intent is obviously that Savage Orruks have a higher save against melee attacks. But RAW, it's neither player's combat phase, so they don't."

Firstly isn't the Boss attacking as if it were the combat phase anyway and as part of resolving the attacks you would do saves, so still as if in combat phase.

Secondly this is such a great example of why purposive interpretation makes sense. You're know exactly what the rule is doing (shields not helping you against shooting) and yet you willfully ignore this and say it doesn't apply. Please try embracing purposive interpretation as an aid to finding out what the rules mean like the legal world and rest of the country has done for 50 years.

[amysrevenge]

It's another one of those cases where some folks are trying to scramble to find ways to make plain statements out to be untrue.  "You can attack as if it were the combat phase - how many ways can we find to make the attack NOT as if it were the combat phase?"

[amysrevenge]

I think whoever answered wasn't thinking it through all the way.    "as if it was the combat phase" is pretty clear.

[thediceabide]

Yup, I did post that directly on their page (the embedded post doesn't make that super clear though).

[scrubyandwells]

Just now, thediceabide said:

I did yesterday, but they haven't responded.

Only response so far is from another player who ultimately wasn't sure either.

You'll want to message them directly, e.g.:

 

[thediceabide]

3 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

You might post a message to @WarhammerAgeofSigmar directly on their AoS Fb page. While their responses are not 100% rules official, they can be a useful guide, and they can pass on queries to the rules team if they're uncertain about RAI/RAW.

I did yesterday, but they haven't responded.

Only response so far is from another player who ultimately wasn't sure either.

[scrubyandwells]

43 minutes ago, thediceabide said:

So the Bonesplitterz have a variety of ways to attack in the Hero Phase, which has led to a couple questions regarding abilities that work in the Combat Phase. For the sake of clarity, I'll break it down into smaller questions, and all are assumed to be attacking in the Hero Phase using the Wurrgog Prophet's Command Ability, Prophet of da Waaagh!: "If a Wurrgog Prophet uses this ability, select a BONESPLITTERZ unit within 15". That unit can immediately pile in and attack as if it were the combat phase. This does not prevent the unit from attacking later."

1. If I use this ability on a Savage Big Boss, does this trigger the Let Me At 'Em ability ("After a Savage Big Boss has attacked, you can pick another BONESPLITTERZ unit within 10". That unit can immediately pile in and attack if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and has not yet attacked this combat phase.")?
2. If I use this ability on a unit of Savage Boarboy Maniaks, do they get to use Maniak Fury ("You can pile in and attack with this unit for a second time at the end of each of your own combat phases.")?
3. If I use this ability on on one of my units to attack an enemy unit of Savage Orruks with Bone Shields ("Savage Orruks have a Save of 5+ in the combat phase."), do they get their save bonus?
4. If I use this ability on one of my units to attack an enemy unit of Blood Warriors, can they use No Respite ("If a model from this unit is slain in the combat phase, you can make a pile in move and then attack with the model before you remove it.")?

Basically, do abilities that only work in the combat phase work if you're attacking in the Hero Phase "as if it was the combat phase"?

I'm inclined to say yes to #1 and no to the others, as #1 is true since the combat phase hasn't happened yet, so obviously the unit has not yet attacked this combat phase... But it would be pretty cheeky to have two Savage Big Bosses triggering each other back and forth infinitely.

You might post a message to @WarhammerAgeofSigmar directly on their AoS Fb page. While their responses are not 100% rules official, they can be a useful guide, and they can pass on queries to the rules team if they're uncertain about RAI/RAW.

[thediceabide]

Yeah, I was kind of asking them in order of what I thought was least tricky to answer to most tricky.

The thing about #1 is that it's not saying it only works in the combat phase, but instead says it only works on a unit that has not yet attacked in the combat phase, which as it is the Hero Phase, none of your units have attacked yet in the Combat Phase.