2000 Competative Mixed Order

[Enochi]

New GHB Order
Allegiance: Order - Mortal Realm: Ulgu
LEADERS
Dragonlord (380)
- Shield & Dragon Lance
- Artefact : Doppelganger Cloak
Seawarden on Foot (100)
- General
- Command Trait : Strategic Genius
Tenebrael Shard (120)
- Artefact : Sword of Judgement
UNITS
5 x Dragon Blades (120)
5 x Dragon Blades (120)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
BEHEMOTHS
Celestial Hurricanum (300)
WAR MACHINES
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Battalion:
Dragonlord Host (140)

2000 points. 10 Drops. The Dragonlord host is the hammer. This list acutally hopes to try and peal off as many supporting characters as possible.  With 36" range and 3 CP on the first turn. My thought is if all the Repeaters have good targets trigger the Seawarden command effect 3 times so each of the bolt throwers should be hitting on 3s and 4s thanks to the huricanum and wounding on 2s thanks to the Seawarden with Rerolls to both. with 12 shots at Ap -1 on a 4+ hero thats on average going to be 5.8 wounds on a hero. Leave the big monster characters to the Arkanauts mostly.  Tenbral takes out whatever is most needed to be sure to die.  I'm hoping this set up in an optimal run will kill 3 to 4 characters with a decapitation strike on first turn then deliver the body blow the 2nd turn with the Dragonlord host. 

So looks good on paper need to test it. Might swap the shield for the horn since the Dragonlord has the Cloak. 
 

[Raffonerd]

On 7/11/2019 at 4:26 AM, Enochi said:

New GHB Order
Allegiance: Order - Mortal Realm: Ulgu
LEADERS
Dragonlord (380)
- Shield & Dragon Lance
- Artefact : Doppelganger Cloak
 Seawarden on Foot (100)
- General
- Command Trait : Strategic Genius
Tenebrael Shard (120)
- Artefact : Sword of Judgement
 UNITS
5 x Dragon Blades (120)
5 x Dragon Blades (120)
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
BEHEMOTHS
Celestial Hurricanum (300)
WAR MACHINES
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Battalion:
Dragonlord Host (140)

2000 points. 10 Drops. The Dragonlord host is the hammer. This list acutally hopes to try and peal off as many supporting characters as possible.  With 36" range and 3 CP on the first turn. My thought is if all the Repeaters have good targets trigger the Seawarden command effect 3 times so each of the bolt throwers should be hitting on 3s and 4s thanks to the huricanum and wounding on 2s thanks to the Seawarden with Rerolls to both. with 12 shots at Ap -1 on a 4+ hero thats on average going to be 5.8 wounds on a hero. Leave the big monster characters to the Arkanauts mostly.  Tenbral takes out whatever is most needed to be sure to die.  I'm hoping this set up in an optimal run will kill 3 to 4 characters with a decapitation strike on first turn then deliver the body blow the 2nd turn with the Dragonlord host. 

So looks good on paper need to test it. Might swap the shield for the horn since the Dragonlord has the Cloak. 
 

My suggestion are:

You should go for ethereal amulet on the dragon as long you will always start as second and you can get focused on first turn shooting phase.

Second I will drop Celestial Hurricanum and Tenebrael Shard to insert some units that can help you sitting shooters. If you get charged in the first turn you lose eveything. I suggest 30 phoenix as a human shield for the archers. Plus if you have Celestial Hurricanum you must keep everything really close and you will encounter problems in spreading up your army.

Dragon's Horn is not that usefull if you play only 10 blades. Let us know after the test. You can also put a Wraithbow on the seawarden if you go Shysh

Edited July 12, 2019 by Raffonerd

[dekay]

You should really consider swapping bolt throwers for celestar balistae. They're cheaper, have more firepower and only disadvantage is losing range in anti-horde mode. They are, however, single models and therefore immune to all those AOE mortal wound effects that clean bolt throwers crew almost instantly.

Together with Lord Ordinator instead of sea warden entire set is 10 points more expensive, but even without Ordinator's buff it's worth it.

Seriously, if you face Maggotkin and they roll a correct cycle of corruption effect turn 1, your crews just spontanously dissapear before the battle even starts.

[Enochi]

4 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

My suggestion are:

You should go for ethereal amulet on the dragon as long you will always start as second and you can get focused on first turn shooting phase.

Second I will drop Celestial Hurricanum and Tenebrael Shard to insert some units that can help you sitting shooters. If you get charged in the first turn you lose eveything. I suggest 30 phoenix as a human shield for the archers. Plus if you have Celestial Hurricanum you must keep everything really close and you will encounter problems in spreading up your army.

Dragon's Horn is not that usefull if you play only 10 blades. Let us know after the test. You can also put a Wraithbow on the seawarden if you go Shysh

Seems like reasonable suggestions. Right now my local meta doesn't have much for first turn charges. I'm more worried about Character sniping that the moment (Big reason of why I have the Huricanum) 
 

2 minutes ago, dekay said:

You should really consider swapping bolt throwers for celestar balistae. They're cheaper, have more firepower and only disadvantage is losing range in anti-horde mode. They are, however, single models and therefore immune to all those AOE mortal wound effects that clean bolt throwers crew almost instantly.

Together with Lord Ordinator instead of sea warden entire set is 10 points more expensive, but even without Ordinator's buff it's worth it.

Seriously, if you face Maggotkin and they roll a correct cycle of corruption effect turn 1, your crews just spontanously dissapear before the battle even starts.

It has been ruled in my area that Bolt throwers & Crew for the the purpose of spells and abilities count as 1 unit. And I disagreed completely on the Balistae. Without being able to deepstrike them I going to be having to use their long range mode more often then not and they are much worse at ranges 18.1" and beyond. Even at 18" and less the The Bolt Thrower is more accurate hiting 4s rather then 5s. And with the command ability of the seawarden its just hands down better all around. In SCE army year the CB gets a good bit better being able to deepstrike in and the LO right on top of what you want but here I don't think it is advantageous.

[dekay]

Alright, if your ruling makes crews untargettable, I concede my point - it's the most glaring weakness of the old type warmachines and without it, yeah, they're very solid units.

[Enochi]

1 minute ago, dekay said:

Alright, if your ruling makes crews untargettable, I concede my point - it's the most glaring weakness of the old type warmachines and without it, yeah, they're very solid units.

The crews can be targeted by Shooting attacks just not spells. Which I find to be very reasonable imo.

[Raffonerd]

The thing is that you have automatic lose in some missions  with this list, like everyone with objectives in the middle of the map and mage mission. (only 1 artifact).  You are investing to much in non mobile models. I don't see how could you defeat a Sylvaneth army (no magic defence also)

Edited July 12, 2019 by Raffonerd

[Enochi]

22 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

The thing is that you have automatic lose in some missions  with this list, like everyone with objectives in the middle of the map and mage mission. (only 1 artifact).  You are investing to much in non mobile models. I don't see how could you defeat a Sylvaneth army (no magic defence also)

My anti-magic is to kill the casters. And if needed the Dragonblades and DL lord can hit any position on the map so I don't really see your point in that regard. My game plan as I said before Turn 1 Decapitation of Heros and Casters. Turn 2 Finish what remains then start body blowing any other critical units as well as the Objective holders. Turn 3+ by this time Whats left of the  Arkanaut Companies should be able to at least grab The center objective while the OD pushes into their backline hopefully.

I get that the name of the game for Order has been lately "well we can't kill them so Lets just try to hold objectives" I'm trying to get back to winning by saying Yeah lets just you know play the game again like killing units is important.

It could be that due to my local area I am underestimating the amount of spell slinging damage I would take turn 1 into my back line but I'm not hugely concerned about it at the moment.

[janenglund]

24 minutes ago, dekay said:

You should really consider swapping bolt throwers for celestar balistae. They're cheaper, have more firepower and only disadvantage is losing range in anti-horde mode. They are, however, single models and therefore immune to all those AOE mortal wound effects that clean bolt throwers crew almost instantly.

Together with Lord Ordinator instead of sea warden entire set is 10 points more expensive, but even without Ordinator's buff it's worth it.

Seriously, if you face Maggotkin and they roll a correct cycle of corruption effect turn 1, your crews just spontanously dissapear before the battle even starts.

What?

Celestar Ballistas do not have better firepower.  They have ****** range of 18", or only 1 shot on range 36". 

Celestar Ballista is 110 pts and does on average 1,30 damage with range 36".  That is 0,12 damage/point.

Celestar Ballista does on average 2,60 damage with range 18". That is 0,24 damage/point.

Reaper Bolt Thrower is 120 pts and does on average 3,33 damage  with range 36". That is 0,28 damage/point.

 

And in ranges between 18"-36" it is better to take 4 Ballistas than 3 Ballistas and an Ordinator.
And if you do not care about the max range, Waywatchers have treat range of 26" and do 0,31 damage/point. Sisters of the Watch have treat range 18" with the same 0,31 damage/point, if they move 6" they have treat range of 24" but it halves their damage. The advantage is that the Sister get +1 to wound against Chaos units and their damage potential goes up to 0,38 damage/point.

Well, I don't care about the Ballistas and my Stormcasts hire the elves to do the shooting. You had to take 4 Ballistas and an Ordinator to make Ordinator buff to be worth it and to be better than the elves (Bolt Thrower, Waywatchers or Sisters of the Watch) and I am not up to that kind of investement.
Ballistas are much more resilient though, but I never had problems with resience of Bolt Throwers, I try to keep my opponents busy taking care of more threatening targets like 10 charging Evocators.

[janenglund]

50 minutes ago, Enochi said:

It has been ruled in my area that Bolt throwers & Crew for the the purpose of spells and abilities count as 1 unit.

Wait, whaaaat?

As the Reaper Bolt Thrower does more damage than Celestar Ballista, the trick is that it is more vulnerable. It has 36" range for a reason, it has to stay away from the harms way. I often place my Bolt Thrower next to a building or the hill to keep the crew behing it and out of sight.

How to be polite... that house rule seems to be imbalanced.

[Raffonerd]

10 minutes ago, Enochi said:

My anti-magic is to kill the casters. And if needed the Dragonblades and DL lord can hit any position on the map so I don't really see your point in that regard. My game plan as I said before Turn 1 Decapitation of Heros and Casters. Turn 2 Finish what remains then start body blowing any other critical units as well as the Objective holders. Turn 3+ by this time Whats left of the  Arkanaut Companies should be able to at least grab The center objective while the OD pushes into their backline hopefully.

I get that the name of the game for Order has been lately "well we can't kill them so Lets just try to hold objectives" I'm trying to get back to winning by saying Yeah lets just you know play the game again like killing units is important.

It could be that due to my local area I am underestimating the amount of spell slinging damage I would take turn 1 into my back line but I'm not hugely concerned about it at the moment.

And if they place the little mage behind tower or in a wood?

[Enochi]

54 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

And if they place the little mage behind tower or in a wood?

Then they aren't slinging spells at me and the Bolt throwers chew up what they are buffing or whatever characters they have leading the charge.

[Enochi]

57 minutes ago, janenglund said:

Wait, whaaaat?

As the Reaper Bolt Thrower does more damage than Celestar Ballista, the trick is that it is more vulnerable. It has 36" range for a reason, it has to stay away from the harms way. I often place my Bolt Thrower next to a building or the hill to keep the crew behing it and out of sight.

How to be polite... that house rule seems to be imbalanced.

Shrug is what it is. Maybe cause our group is light on terrain and plays without the terrain rules(Not counting faction terrain rules)? 

[Raffonerd]

17 minutes ago, Enochi said:

Shrug is what it is. Maybe cause our group is light on terrain and plays without the terrain rules(Not counting faction terrain rules)? 

This means that we cannot tell you if your list is good, cause you don't play exactly aos.

Gh19 says how to use terreins  (10 each game).

In my opinion, this list as it is can t be competitive cause of the lack in mobility. Plus against sylvaneth you have lost as he starts. (1 faction wood plus 1 summoned one).

Edited July 12, 2019 by Raffonerd

[Enochi]

1 hour ago, Raffonerd said:

This means that we cannot tell you if your list is good, cause you don't play exactly aos.

Gh19 says how to use terreins  (10 each game).

In my opinion, this list as it is can t be competitive cause of the lack in mobility. Plus against sylvaneth you have lost as he starts. (1 faction wood plus 1 summoned one).

Shrug. Maybe. I have tested on TTS though and can quite easily set up terrain choices where Sylvaneth wont get to play terrain either anywhere or anywhere important. 

[jake3991]

23 hours ago, dekay said:

You should really consider swapping bolt throwers for celestar balistae. They're cheaper, have more firepower and only disadvantage is losing range in anti-horde mode. 

I agree with this, however I would contend that the hellstorm rocket battery combined with a lord ordinator is just crazy.  Take four of them for maximum effectiveness.  My reasoning here is comparable damage output and range as well as not needing line of sight to shoot.  This not only maintains your damage output but it mitigates any bad matchups (sylveneth or a terrain heavy table).  

Love seeing mixed order!

[Maturin]

On 7/13/2019 at 4:22 PM, jake3991 said:

I agree with this, however I would contend that the hellstorm rocket battery combined with a lord ordinator is just crazy.  Take four of them for maximum effectiveness.  My reasoning here is comparable damage output and range as well as not needing line of sight to shoot.  This not only maintains your damage output but it mitigates any bad matchups (sylveneth or a terrain heavy table).  

Love seeing mixed order!

Aren't Helstorm quite random ? Not being blocked by LOS is good, but imagine you do 4 shots ...

[jake3991]

16 hours ago, Maturin said:

Aren't Helstorm quite random ? Not being blocked by LOS is good, but imagine you do 4 shots ...

Not quite, d6 damage is the only random bit.  Given that there is a new book coming out for cities of Sigmar I might wait and see what good shooting battery emerges.