CHALICE OF USHORAN

[Fluttershy]

If CHALICE OF USHORAN is casted an set up, who is taking control of it?

Malign Sorcery, Page 53 states

Endless Spell Models

"[..] Unless noted otherwise, an endless
spell model cannot be attacked or
affected by spells or abilities; it is
treated as a friendly model by all
armies for any other rules purposes. [..]"

so does the active player would have to use it's ability and roll the dice to heal / return models to a FEC Unit?

 

The Warscroll doesn't state you can heal/return, so would you have to?

This would force the active player to heal/return models of his opponents army, if his models have no wounds nor casulties or he isn't playing a FEC army!?

 

Unless the Muster Abilities, it doesn't state how the returning models are set up.

So would it be possible to set up a returning model within 12" of the chalice wherever you want to?

[Fluttershy]

BATTLETOME: FLESH-EATER COURTS Official Errata, March 2019

Page 86 – Soul Stealer Add the following: ‘The player whose turn is taking place must pick which eligible Flesh-eater Courts units are affected.’

👍

[XReN]

You can execute the heal if you want, it doesn't specify who does it, but mirror matches might need some clearification

Okay, here is FAQ for old tome:
‘Returning Slain Models: Several Flesh-eater Courts abilities allow you to return slain models to a unit. When you do so, set up the models one at a time within 1" of a model from the unit they are returning to (this can be a model you returned to the unit earlier in the same phase). The slain models you return to a unit can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if one or more models from the unit they are returning to are already within 3" of an enemy unit.
There is no reason not to apply same logic to chalice
And have to say, your attempts to bend/exploit/re-interpret every SINGLE RULE is getting annoying

[EMMachine]

Hm, when I look at the rule for soul stealer, it looks like, that the ability is activated at the end of each turn (so exept for the case of a mirror match, like @XReN said, the rule is clear that Flesh Eater Courts would heal every turn).

Quote

Soul Stealer:

Keep track of the number of models that are slain within 12" of this model each turn. At the end of each turn, roll a dice for each model that was slain within 12" of this model during that turn.

...

 

1 hour ago, Fluttershy said:

Malign Sorcery, Page 53 states

Endless Spell Models

"[..] Unless noted otherwise, an endless
spell model cannot be attacked or
affected by spells or abilities; it is
treated as a friendly model by all
armies for any other rules purposes. [..]"

so does the active player would have to use it's ability and roll the dice to heal / return models to a FEC Unit?

The point, a Endless Spell is threated as a friendly model is mostly, because of the fact that if it would count as an enemy model you wouldn't be able to move within 3" of it or if you are in 3" you could only make a retreat move. As a friendly model it doesn't trigger the enemy model rule of the Movement Phase and it doesn't trigger the Pile in Rule in the Combat phase.

To the first part

1 hour ago, Fluttershy said:

If CHALICE OF USHORAN is casted an set up, who is taking control of it?

Is the point of controlling an endless spell not only the case of predatory endless spells? And Chalice of Ushoran is not a Predatory spell, only Corpsemare Stampede is.

 

[Fluttershy]

23 minutes ago, XReN said:

You can execute the heal if you want, it doesn't specify who does it, but mirror matches might need some clearification

I think you would agree that there is a huge difference in the wording.

f.e. if it states "re-roll" failed hit rolls you can't decide not to do so, otherwise it states "you can re-roll" failed hit rolls.

The use of the Soul Stealer Ability isn't optional.

 

Sure, for narrative play all those questions might be irrelevant, but they are relevant in competitive matched play.

I'm sorry you're getting annoyed by my questions - here's a tip: ignore them.

 

Arguing with old FAQs is odd. There was a time Crypt Flayers caused a mortal wound on "a roll of 6" next FAQ stated "a roll of 6" is always treated as "a roll of 6 or more", few FAQs later they revised "a roll of 6" is now treated as "an unmodified roll of 6". GW is constantly changing intentions, that why a clear wording is important.

[Fluttershy]

2 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

To the first part

1 hour ago, Fluttershy said:

If CHALICE OF USHORAN is casted an set up, who is taking control of it?

Is the point of controlling an endless spell not only the case of predatory endless spells? And Chalice of Ushoran is not a Predatory spell, only Corpsemare Stampede is.

My question is more like who is executing the Ability

[JackStreicher]

It's not a predatory endless spell so you keep control over it 24/7 (imo) -> you execute it

[XReN]

1 minute ago, Fluttershy said:

I think you would agree that there is a huge difference in the wording.

f.e. if it states "re-roll" failed hit rolls you can't decide not to do so, otherwise it states "you can re-roll" failed hit rolls.

The use of the Soul Stealer Ability isn't optional.

I'm talking not about optionality, but about who does the rolling dice and healing

 

3 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

I'm sorry you're getting annoyed by my questions - here's a tip: ignore them.

Well, first I've been interested in returning models to other unit bla bla bla, but time proven that those discussions are fruitless, so why are you trying to exploit rule's again is what I don't understand, and also I care about it because I know what it feels to make rules mistakes and what it feels to essentially cheat and then discover that you did something that is not allowed, that is why I feel like we as a community need to participate in those discussions.

 

12 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

Arguing with old FAQs is odd. There was a time Crypt Flayers caused a mortal wound on "a roll of 6" next FAQ stated "a roll of 6" is always treated as "a roll of 6 or more", few FAQs later they revised "a roll of 6" is now treated as "an unmodified roll of 6". GW is constantly changing intentions, that why a clear wording is important.

Ignoring the restrictions of abilities with literally same outcome is perfectly fine from raw perspective, can't argue on that. 

[Fluttershy]

23 minutes ago, XReN said:

Well, first I've been interested in returning models to other unit bla bla bla, but time proven that those discussions are fruitless, so why are you trying to exploit rule's again is what I don't understand, and also I care about it because I know what it feels to make rules mistakes and what it feels to essentially cheat and then discover that you did something that is not allowed, that is why I feel like we as a community need to participate in those discussions.

it's about looking from more than one perspective, it's not about exploiting nor cheating nor getting someone annoyed

 

in case of returning slain models I had an opponent who represented the point of view I can return his slain rats to my unit of ghouls. I don't think so.

My intention is like some kind of preparation, the more arguments I've already discussed (pro & cons) the less time I have to spend on arguing at the table

 

In my opinion, the chalice warscroll is awfully written.

[EMMachine]

54 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

My question is more like who is executing the Ability

When we look at different non-predatory endless spells, we have different forms.

• Balewind Vortex never changes its owner (the Vortex and the Wizard become one model), and it is one of the Spells that counts towards the "Unless otherwise noted..." paragraph of the Endless Spell rule.
• Others are completly passive and activate if something is in range (Soulsnare Shackles,  Everblaze Comet, Cadaverous Barricade or Prismatic Palisade for example).
• Or it can be controlled by a model in range, where it is stated in the Ability rules  (Chronomantic Cogs, Umbral Spell Portal)

Chalice of Ushoran does have a wording for the Ability like the passive spells (activated every time it can be activated, in this case if models are slain this turn), but only Flesh Eater Courts are really profiting from it, so the Flesh Eater Courts Player does allocate the returning models or heals units. Only the point FEC against FEC is a problematic case (like the High Tide rule of the Idoneth Deepkin, where they needed a FAQ).

13 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

in case of returning slain models I had an opponent who represented the point of view I can return his slain rats to my unit of ghouls. I don't think so.

The slain rats are still generating dice for your healing or returning slain models if you have slain Ghouls. Every slain model counts toward the number of dice.

[JackStreicher]

The chalice was just hit by an Errata, was it not? This topic is done =}

[EMMachine]

20 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

The chalice was just hit by an Errata, was it not? This topic is done =}

Yeah, if @Fluttershy had waited a day we wouldn't had the Thread at all.

Funfact, I had in another forum the first one who was a little upset that the opponent is choosing which units are healed, or get's slain models back in his turn, but we can be grad about the fact that this cleared up the mirror match situation.