Differing Unit Size and a specific Question

[Aloth_Corfiser]

Hello fellow Fans,

I must admit that I have actually 2 Questions, although the second Question is a very specific one.

How would you handle the following inconsistencies?
First off: I am confused by the different minimum and maximum Unit Sizes listed in certain Warscrolls, the Generals Handbook 2018 and the Warscroll Builder: For example:
In their respective Warscroll the Sisters of the Watch are designated to have a minimum Unit Size of 5 (I guess that is no longer up to date)
However the Warscroll Builder sets a minimum Unit Size of 10 and a Maximum of 20 Units.
Then again the Generals Handbook sets the same minimum of 10 but a Max. Unit Size of 30. 

My second Question would be:
Regarding the AOS APP: The Wayfinder Hero of the Wanderers Faction is able to use a Command Ability called Boldest of the Bold, giving a chosen Unit his Bravery of 8 and on top of that this Unit can immediately shoot, as if it where the shooting Phase, when it rolls a Battleshock test of 1.  However Daemon Musicians require enemy Units within their vicinity to reroll Battleshock-Tests of 1. So as unlikely as it is going to happen, I have not been able to find clarifications for this in any FAQs.
Thanks in advance, I just found out today about this section of the Forums and I appreciate every answer.
 

[michu]

1) Minimal unit sizes written on warscrolls are only for Open and Narrative Play. Minimal unit sizes for Matched Play are in the GHB.

2) IIRC that issue wasn't yet explained in any FAQ.

[Aloth_Corfiser]

Thanks a lot!
Regarding 1) --> that's an interesting distinction I didn't know about.

[DrJekyll325]

2)  It appears to me that if you apply the rules as written the unit will need to re-roll that '1' per the daemon musician rules and hope for another '1'.  Seems fine to me.

[BaldoBeardo]

8 hours ago, DrJekyll325 said:

2)  It appears to me that if you apply the rules as written the unit will need to re-roll that '1' per the daemon musician rules and hope for another '1'.  Seems fine to me.

Just to clarify on the mechanics - it's covered under rerolls on Pg 1 of the core rules. You *always* apply rerolls before checking a dice roll for ability purposes.

[Isotop]

"RE-ROLLS

Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6 etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and rerolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied. Rules that refer to the result of an ‘unmodified’ dice roll are referring to the result after any re-rolls but before any modifiers are applied." (THE CORE RULES, p. 1)

I´m not sure BaldoBeardo´s point about "re-rolling before checking abilitiy triggers". The Wayfinder warscroll doesn´t (so far) refer to the result of an unmodified dice roll. Instead it says "[...] if you roll a 1 for any of these units’ battleshock tests, [...]". It seems to me a Wanderers unit affected by Bravest of the Brave rolling a 1 for their battleshock test could shoot immediately and after re-rolling into another 1 (because of a demonic musician nearby) could shoot again. Just to be clear: I am just stating how the rules lay the situation out in my (limited) view - being relatively new to Age of Sigmar I am absolutely ready to be corrected.

[King Taloren]

37 minutes ago, Isotop said:

"RE-ROLLS

Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6 etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and rerolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied. Rules that refer to the result of an ‘unmodified’ dice roll are referring to the result after any re-rolls but before any modifiers are applied." (THE CORE RULES, p. 1)

I´m not sure BaldoBeardo´s point about "re-rolling before checking abilitiy triggers". The Wayfinder warscroll doesn´t (so far) refer to the result of an unmodified dice roll. Instead it says "[...] if you roll a 1 for any of these units’ battleshock tests, [...]". It seems to me a Wanderers unit affected by Bravest of the Brave rolling a 1 for their battleshock test could shoot immediately and after re-rolling into another 1 (because of a demonic musician nearby) could shoot again. Just to be clear: I am just stating how the rules lay the situation out in my (limited) view - being relatively new to Age of Sigmar I am absolutely ready to be corrected.

The shooting on roll of 1 ability is actually looking for the result of the battle shock dice roll. So it occurs after modifiers, which the reroll is a sort of modifier that interrupts the result step and restarts the roll of the dice before the 1 is counted as the roll. Reroll happen before you take modifiers into account so the result is not even checking for the roll of 1 until after all of that.

[Isotop]

1 minute ago, King Taloren said:

The shooting on roll of 1 ability is actually looking for the result of the battle shock dice roll. So it occurs after modifiers, which the reroll is a sort of modifier that interrupts the result step and restarts the roll of the dice before the 1 is counted as the roll. Reroll happen before you take modifiers into account so the result is not even checking for the roll of 1 until after all of that.

I did not think that a re-roll would qualify as a modifier. The sentence "[R]erolls happen before modifiers [...]" (CR, p. 1) really doesn´t add up for me if re-rolls were modifiers. But then again, GW doesn´t tell us what a modifier is in the first place...

[King Taloren]

1 minute ago, Isotop said:

I did not think that a re-roll would qualify as a modifier. The sentence "[R]erolls happen before modifiers [...]" (CR, p. 1) really doesn´t add up for me if re-rolls were modifiers. But then again, GW doesn´t tell us what a modifier is in the first place...

A modifier is anything that changes the result of the dice roll. A reroll is applied first before any other modifiers (-1 to hit, +2 to wound, 6s count as 1s, etc) that was a step they made to prevent people from re-rolling a lot of dice that were successes before the modifiers made them fails.

[Isotop]

I see the reasoning here: The term "modifier" is very extensive because GW doesn´t make any specifications what a modifier is in a closer sense (hope I´m getting that right). 

[BaldoBeardo]

1 hour ago, Isotop said:

I see the reasoning here: The term "modifier" is very extensive because GW doesn´t make any specifications what a modifier is in a closer sense (hope I´m getting that right). 

From the rules, whilst it might not be stated explicitly a modifier is anything that isn't a reroll as rerolls are called out specifically.

A reroll (or certain abilities that allow you to pick what the result of the physical roll is - looking at you, Tzeentch) determine what the roll is.

Modifiers change that result with a relative +/-x

So the sequence for any dice roll is;

Physically roll.

Apply rerolls or abilities that allow an override of  the result.

Check triggers for abilities that specify unmodified roll.

Apply +ve and -ve modifiers.

Check triggers for other abilities.

Apply result.