Thinking of starting Tzeench for magic fun but don't want to be "that guy."

[Reezark_SP]

Hello all!

I recently got into AoS and originally I wanted to start collecting Tzeench because I dig the models and the lore. However my friends in my playgroup were telling me how Tzeench is one of the "mega cheese armies" in the game so I got into my next favorite army, Daughters of Khain and Deepkin. 

Now that I have all the DoK and Deepkin models I want to play with, and with the release of the new Endless Spells, I'm felling Tzeench's influence once again!

So I don't know what combo of units makes Tzeench crazy strong (I haven't researched that at all) and don't own the book yet but I used the app to look at all the different warscrolls and what I would want to do is totally dominate the Hero phase with my Magic and  Dispells; as well as put all kinds of endless spells on the table as well.

To me the list looks fun and fluffy for Tzeench but I'm worried about being "that Tzeench guy" haha. I guess my only questions for the community for about this list is 

Is it too cheesy?

Is it capable of doing well?

Any glaring weakness I need to tweak the list to mitigate?

General
Lord of Change

Curseling

Blue Scribes

Gaunt Summoner

Orgoid Thaumaturge

 

Battleline:
Pink Horrors x10

Tzangors x10

Kairic Acolytes x20

Endless Spells:
Cogs

Spellportal

Emerald Lifeswarm

Pendulum

 Gnashing Jaws

Geminids

Soulsnare shackles

I'm able to cast 9 spells per Hero phase (yay sacred number)! And Tzeench magic is pretty brutal so I'm hoping that by the time combat begins the enemy is so beat up that they have trouble taking my flimsy casters down. 

Thanks!

[Waiyuren]

I'm not as experienced as other players here, but here's my advice/critique:

You can cast 9 spells, but you're locked to mid-range, have 8 drops,  and minimal bodies to screen your casters. If you don't get the choice for first turn and can't screen, you'll be casting a few less spells than that given most armies have the speed or range to hit you turn 1.

You're kind of all over the place between daemons and arcanites too. You might want to go heavier on one than the other as they also have sub-type synergies;

Tzaangors work best in large blocks, and better with shamans.

Pinks work bettter in multiple groups to maximise blue/brimstone horror points, with daemon heroes near by.

Acolytes work with daemon wizards? Which make their shots mediocre instead of bad, but they're cheap and have a wide footprint.

Also, your opponent may choose to allow you first turn to get the chance at a double, only to hand it to you so they get to turn all those endless spells back on you. ?

Other people are going to be able to give you more constructive advice, this is just my first reaction based on my experiences.

[Reezark_SP]

Thank you for the input! Yeah I am kind of on the fence with my battleline. It seems like the easiest fix to the problem you pointed out is to change put the 10 Tzangors with a 2nd unit of Pink Horrors (as you say they're best in multiples) or another group of 20 Acolytes for screening.

Also, are you sure the opponent gets to move all of the endless spells if he chooses not to go first? I thought we alternate moving spells and the person who chooses not to go first gets to move the first spell?

[Waiyuren]

11 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

Thank you for the input! Yeah I am kind of on the fence with my battleline. It seems like the easiest fix to the problem you pointed out is to change put the 10 Tzangors with a 2nd unit of Pink Horrors (as you say they're best in multiples) or another group of 20 Acolytes for screening.

Also, are you sure the opponent gets to move all of the endless spells if he chooses not to go first? I thought we alternate moving spells and the person who chooses not to go first gets to move the first spell?

I mean i could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the person that goes second in a round moves any predatory spells thst are in play. Most list builders seem to only take one or two predatory spells, and a buff spell or two maximum from what I've seen. Me i still only take a balewind so i wouldn't really know. ?

[Magnus The Blue]

3 hours ago, Waiyuren said:

I mean i could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the person that goes second in a round moves any predatory spells thst are in play. Most list builders seem to only take one or two predatory spells, and a buff spell or two maximum from what I've seen. Me i still only take a balewind so i wouldn't really know. ?

Nope, you alternate starting with the player who is going second.

Most people only play 1-2 endless spells as they use up a lot of points if you get more, don't help complete objectives and generally can backfire (with a few exceptions).

I wouldn't worry about your list being too cheesy who your spending so many points on Endless spells. To be honest while Tzeentch lists are definitely competitive, they aren't crazy good anymore with all the points increases in the last year.

In terms of the list, I'd definitely cut a spell or two to get more bodies, I'd lose Jaws (just not very good) and life-swarm(not really necessary when you have fold reality). I find little benefit in having 20 Acolytes instead of 2*10, unless your using a funky battalion.

I think there is noting wrong with mixing minimum sized units of Pinks and Tzaangors, as the Gor's banner is  gets great with some pinks near by and the Pinks can be more aggressive if there is a counter attacking unit near by to get them out of sticky situations.

Also, if you can get your hands on the models the Guant Summoner with familiars is just hands down better than without .

[Waiyuren]

5 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Nope, you alternate starting with the player who is going second.

^^^ Ha, there you go, Reezark_SP, you were right. ?

Adding to Magnus' suggestions, the Curseling is very match-up dependant; if your opponent isn't casting a lot of spells, he's not pulling his full weight. A Magister is the new hotness (after being arguably the worst caster in Tzeentch for so long) due to him creating free spawns now, which can help tie up your opponent's units for a round and just generally be annoying. ?

[Magnus The Blue]

Yup, can't argue with a 140 hero that spawns 50 point spawns almost every turn (already in combat with the victim unit) and occasionally gets an extra cast.

[Reezark_SP]

Hey thanks for the tip regarding the Magister! That guy wasn't even on my radar. Between the Magister creating Spawns and the Thaumaturge creating Brimstones, there will be a fair amount of roadblocks/speedbumps to impede things I want to keep far away. 

Now I'm looking at:

Lord of Change

Curseling

Blue Scribes

Gaunt Summoner

Orgoid

Magister

 

Battleline:
Pink Horrors x10

Tzangors x10

Tzangors x10 

Endless Spell:
Cogs

Purple Sun

Spellportal

Soulsnare Shackles

Maelstrom

I figured it'll be okay to start with 1 unit of Horrors as with so many spells being cast each round there will be plenty of Fate points during the game to summon more.

[Waiyuren]

I'm still really freaked out by your minimal chaff, it's the same number of bodies i use at 1k... ?

Here's my 1k list;

LoC (General, magical supremacy)

-Firestorm/Inferno

Gaunt & familiars (paradoxical shield)

-Bolt

3x10 acolytes

Jabberslythe

Balewind Vortex 

The idea is to deploy to deny deepstrikes, castle up on or near 50% of the objectives and weather the storm for two turns; chuck the Jabberslythe at something nasty that's gotten too close and let it explode, then nuke everything within 18" that survives.

About the end of turn 2-3 you can start moving your surving guys, amoeba-like, toward whatever you need for 75% board control, but to be perfectly honest by then I've usually either almost tabled my opponent or have been tabled myself... That's the risk you run with min-maxing. ?

[themortalgod]

First of all. You won't be "that guy", AoS 2.0 made sure of that. Tzeentch isn't ridiculous anymore. On the contrary, all the 2.0 nerfs made Tzeentch a bottom tier army if you just take "whatever" and barely mid tier if you optimize like crazy. The only exception that I know of is some sort of Archaon combo force which is mediocre but is seeing some tourny play.

As for your list. WAY too many pts on Endless Spells my dude. Tzeentch has good spells to begin with. You won't have the excess casting availability to spam out that many endless spells. Purple Sun is garbage. Its too random of a spell to invest 100pts in. Sometimes it will win you games. Sometimes it will lose you games. Most of the time it will do very little.  Post nerf spell portal is not worth 60pts so drop that too. Also not a fan of Maelstrom in Tzeentch. it basically creates a big zone on the battlefield that you don't want most of your army in.  Personally, I don't run any endless spells for Tzeentch. Our unit costs are too high and I find my wizards already have a ton of great spells to cast so why pay for and cast an endless spell that most of the time is a liability (other than a few such as cogs)

Your hero investment is really high. strong alpha strike armies will obliterate you as you simply don't have enough bodies on turn 1 to protect your heroes. Imo drop the Ogroid. I know his spell seems cool, but it's a high difficulty spell (and he doesn't benefit from LoC command ability) More often than not a couple brims won't even survive the combat phase so they don't even really do anything anyway. The magister is far superior at creating annoyance with his free spawns.  

With all the points saved on Endless spells and the Ogroid, get more bodies. I'd suggest blues. For 100pts you effectively get 20 wounds worth of models that can shoot. Thats a damn good front line. In fact, if they were battleline, I'd argue they would be the most efficient battleline unit the game. 

You need to plan for summoning. If your entire strategy is to create a deathball around your chicken and move up the field, the enemy just has to surround you and you can't summon anything since you won't have any opportunities to place a unit 9" away from enemies while still being within 12" of your hero. Also you will lose the objective game. Hero spam simply doesn't work in AoS 2.0 for Tzeentch. The heroes are too vulnerable. Your army is investing 1400+ points in heroes and endless spells for your heroes to cast. Regardless of what you do, I'd recommend keeping that number below 1000pts. 

And finally. Always remember the Nagash factor. He gets 8 unbind attempts at +3 to the roll. If you end up across the table from Nagash. What do you do? The army above simply loses as he will completely lock down your magic phase which leaves you with no source of offense. Personally, my Tzeentch army accounts for the Nagash factor by bringing skyfires and a shaman. Yes, they are expensive, but they can bring a lot of pain to Nagash to soften him up and vastly lower his ability to lock down my magic phase. 

[Reezark_SP]

Hey themortalgod thanks for the in depth analysis I truly appreciate it!

While considering your wise words about having more bodies on the table, I realized that I am already using almost all of the models that come in the Changecult box set, which my FLGS happens to be selling at a discounted price, so I picked it up and tweaked the list so that it uses everything from the set. So now I'm looking at running:

Lord of Change (General)
Blue Scribes
Gaunt Summoner
Magister
Tzaangor Shaman

Tzzangors x10
Tzzangors x10
Acolutes x20

Skyfyres x3
Enlightened on Discs x3

Cogs
Shackles

Since I am still casting lots of spells each round I should accumulate many Fate points for summoning as needed.

Also quick question. Is the Gaunt Summoner not allowed to take a Disc if he's chosen from the Tzeench book? If so then the only way to use him is if he's allied in from the Everchosen book?

[Waiyuren]

9 hours ago, Reezark_SP said:

Also quick question. Is the Gaunt Summoner not allowed to take a Disc if he's chosen from the Tzeench book? If so then the only way to use him is if he's allied in from the Everchosen book?

You can take the disc gaunt from everchosen without tapping your allies points as he has the Tzeentch keyword, but his unique spell is a serious downgrade on the foot-gaunt's version.

He'd be pretty good if the magic phase was after movement, but it isn't so no one uses him... ?

Otherwise it's looking better! It seems solid, and i think you'll have a lot of fun. A lot of people will tell you to go all in on skyfires or don't bother, but i personally feel if you move them around as a group with the enlightened it's something of a force multiplier, given that you'll likely be able to pick combat order (and therefore stack those rerolls in your favour) so i think it's cool you're taking both.

One thing i would do though is split those acolytes into 10's if you're using them as chaff, as MSU can buy you an extra round if you place them cleverly. Also, if you aren't using them for chaff too, I'd combine the tzaangors; they're more of a hammer, and really work best with weight of numbers behind them. 

Good luck, and let us know how you get on! ?

[seraphor]

Magister gives free Spawns?

So those Chaos Spawn he can generate don't cost points now?

What about the Gaunt Summoner and his Realmgate summon ability? I was wondering how that plays out with the new summoning rules that seem to make him redundant.

[Calum Todd]

His ability has changed in the new FAQ: LINK 

Page 125 – Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch, Book of Profane Secrets
Change to:
‘Book of Profane Secrets: Whispering fell incantations, a Gaunt Summoner can temporarily divert the path of a Realmgate, allowing malefic Chaos entities to manifest on the battlefield.
Once per battle, at the end of your movement phase,
if this model is within 9" of a Realmgate it can use its Book of Profane Secrets. If it does so, you can summon 1 unit from the list below to the battlefield, and add it to your army. The summoned unit must be set up wholly within 9" of a this model and wholly within 9" of the Realmgate, and more than 9" from any enemy units.
Choose a unit from the following list:
• 10 Pink Horrors • 10 Bloodletters
• 10 Plaguebearers • 10 Daemonettes’

Doesn’t cost points to do this, but does rely on there being the correct terrain piece on the board. 

[Magnus The Blue]

Yup, highly situational but can't argue with a free 200 point unit of horrors!

[Reezark_SP]

1 hour ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Yup, highly situational but can't argue with a free 200 point unit of horrors!

Its a really tough trade off as I don't really like the idea of my enemy being able to pop out of the realmgate on my side of the board by entering the realmgate on their side though.

[Reezark_SP]

Hey quick question where can I find the ruled for the familiars for the Gaunt Summoner? They don't seem to be in the book. Just got a pack of them off ebay. Thanks.

[Magnus The Blue]

Units coming through the Realmgate have to set up within 6" of the realmgate and can't be within 9" of an enemy model, so if you have a model right next to the realmgate (say, the Gaunt summoner) they can't do any pooping

Rules are here: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-whquest-rules-en.pdf

[erasercrumbs]

I'd don't know if I'd consider Tzeentch a bottom-tier army, but 2.0 nerfs has significantly reduced Tzeentchian cheese. They're an honorable army now.

[seraphor]

Quote

Hey quick question where can I find the ruled for the familiars for the Gaunt Summoner? They don't seem to be in the book. Just got a pack of them off ebay. Thanks.

Gaunt Summoner and Familiars can be found on the AoS app. All viable and updated warscrolls are on there.

Basically they serve as 4 additional pseudo-wounds, when allocating wounds you can either remove a familiar, or allocate the wound to the Summoner.
One familiar gives +1 to casting rolls, one is +1 to hit rolls for his sword I think, one is -1 to hit rolls for enemies attacking the summoner, and one is -1 on save rolls for enemies within 3".

Speaking of Gaunt Summoner with Familiars.
If I give him Treacherous Bond to harvest Blue Horror points from my Pinks... do I get to send all wounds he receives their way? Or do they have to be specifically allocated to him (as opposed to his Familiars) before they're redirected?