Clan Moulder question

[Rangeltoft]

Just now, Skreech Verminking said:

Yes but taking a pestilence Armie with the Nurgle allegiance allows you to tak any other skaven unit as allies.

in other words since Gw chanced the allies for pestilence, now allowing our to not only take any skaven clan and Nurgle Daemons, but even any Nurgle Unit, your combo would work.

in other words great job, finding such a great armycombination???

 

Hrm. are you sure that´s how it works? If my army is Nurgle Allegiance, I won´t be able to ally in Clan Moulder, due to not appering on the allied chart for a Nurgle Army?

[Skreech Verminking]

13 minutes ago, Rangeltoft said:

Hrm. are you sure that´s how it works? If my army is Nurgle Allegiance, I won´t be able to ally in Clan Moulder, due to not appering on the allied chart for a Nurgle Army?

Well the allegiance, in my opinion isn’t what makes the army.

so as long as you are using only pestilence units with the exceptions of the allies, I would say that, a pestilence army using the Nurgle allegiance can still take skaven units as an allie option, as long as you are not using any other kind of Nurgle units, which aren’t taken as an Allie.

After all this is how the grand chaos allegiance works, and so should the other allegiance as well?

There is nothing stating it otherwise

[Mayple]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well the allegiance, in my opinion isn’t what makes the army.

so as long as you are using only pestilence units with the exceptions of the allies, I would say that, a pestilence army using the Nurgle allegiance can still take skaven units as an allie option, as long as you are not using any other kind of Nurgle units, which aren’t taken as an Allie.

After all this is how the grand chaos allegiance works, and so should the other allegiance as well?

There is nothing stating it otherwise

But Plague monks wouldn't be battleline in a Nurgle allegiance, since they're only battleline in a Pestilens allegiance. 

[Rangeltoft]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well the allegiance, in my opinion isn’t what makes the army.

so as long as you are using only pestilence units with the exceptions of the allies, I would say that, a pestilence army using the Nurgle allegiance can still take skaven units as an allie option, as long as you are not using any other kind of Nurgle units, which aren’t taken as an Allie.

After all this is how the grand chaos allegiance works, and so should the other allegiance as well?

There is nothing stating it otherwise

This confuses me abit. If I run a "Pestilence" army with Nurgle Allegiance, would that make me use the Battletraits etc from the Maggotkin battletome (only rules there are for a Nurgle army as far as I know)? And to make it even stranger, would Putrid Blightkings then be battleline due to them having battleline if the army is Nurgle Allegiance?

Not 100% sure on the rules here. If there is a way to have a unit of Giant Rats with an Spellcaster that can cast Blades of Putrefaction that would be great, but would this really work? As I said in the start of the topic, only played one game so far and am not 100% on AoS rules yet.

[Skreech Verminking]

26 minutes ago, Mayple said:

But Plague monks wouldn't be battleline in a Nurgle allegiance, since they're only battleline in a Pestilens allegiance. 

Gw chanced the rules on that.

it now says that plague monks are battleline in a pestilence army 

[Mayple]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Gw chanced the rules on that.

it now says that plague monks are battleline in a pestilence army 

That's an interesting change of wording. What constitutes an army? Do any other armies have that wording? 

[Rangeltoft]

5 hours ago, Mayple said:

That's an interesting change of wording. What constitutes an army? Do any other armies have that wording? 

Every army has that wording in the GHB18, "count as battline in x-army" unless they always are batteline such as Clanrats.

In the Maggotkin book it says that "If an Army could have more then one allegiance, you must pick one to apply to it during the game..." Altho I don´t seem to be able to find the same rule in for example the Nighthaunt battletome.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

Looks like we found a very interesting usability of a pestilence army?.

the time has come for us to rise, ones again, yes-yes.

 

[Rangeltoft]

43 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Looks like we found a very interesting usability of a pestilence army?.

the time has come for us to rise, ones again, yes-yes.

 

Still not convinced that´s how it works.. IF the army is Pestilence, how would it then be able to get the Nurgle spell? it clearly states in the rules for the spell-lore that Wizard in a Nurgle Army gets it. Nothing about Allegiance, just Nurgle Army. If the army then is Nurgle, it wouldn´t be able to get Clan Moulder Allies due to not appearing on the ally chart for Nurgle armys?

If I have completly missunderstod how this works, then please give me a extremly simple rundown on how it would work, but as far as I can see, it´s not possible to have Blades of Putrefacation and Giant Rats in the same army.

[Skreech Verminking]

48 minutes ago, Rangeltoft said:

Still not convinced that´s how it works.. IF the army is Pestilence, how would it then be able to get the Nurgle spell? it clearly states in the rules for the spell-lore that Wizard in a Nurgle Army gets it. Nothing about Allegiance, just Nurgle Army. If the army then is Nurgle, it wouldn´t be able to get Clan Moulder Allies due to not appearing on the ally chart for Nurgle armys?

If I have completly missunderstod how this works, then please give me a extremly simple rundown on how it would work, but as far as I can see, it´s not possible to have Blades of Putrefacation and Giant Rats in the same army.

Well well after taking another look, 

i really don’t  would have to say that I myself am not anymore sure, since at the the beginning it is saying that an army with the Nurgle keyword can have an Nurgle allegiance, and the next thing I read is something about a Nurgle army.

in other words, I am not sure anymore, and I would have to ask Gw, and hope that they will answer my question.

?

 

[Davros]

This is a very interesting setup as AOS 2.0 have made "Army" and Aliegence two seperate things.

 

The main reason for this was so you would be able to have your batteline if units count with a grand order aliegence abilities. No need to FAQ like they had to for gh17.

 

Because of this allies are taken for your army, in this case pestilance so you can have rats, but you take the Nurgle aliegence because a Pestilance army has all got 3 key words (Nurgle, Pestilance & Chaos) any of which ypu can choose as your aliegence.

The list will still need a Nurgle sorcerer to be allied as well so you can cast the spell. As it it is rotbringer keyword.

 

So list would end up being 320-340 points of allies used to have the combo but it does work, or the full 400 with the pack master.

I think that is pretty cool. Rats have 3 attacks each dealing mortal wounds on 2+ (6+ base +3 because of unit size, +1 for pack master) also those attacks get to roll for wounds as well and can get to 4+ rerollable. Really sweet combo. Add in Verminlord corruptor and you can add an attack for each command point you spend. 

 

Edit: this took me quite a while to decifer, but it all works if you read the alliegence page in the core rules. Wouldn't you think GW would be better at rule writing after 40ish years.

[Skreech Verminking]

6 minutes ago, Davros said:

This is a very interesting setup as AOS 2.0 have made "Army" and Aliegence two seperate things.

 

The main reason for this was so you would be able to have your batteline if units count with a grand order aliegence abilities. No need to FAQ like they had to for gh17.

 

Because of this allies are taken for your army, in this case pestilance so you can have rats, but you take the Nurgle aliegence because a Pestilance army has all got 3 key words (Nurgle, Pestilance & Chaos) any of which ypu can choose as your aliegence.

The list will still need a Nurgle sorcerer to be allied as well so you can cast the spell. As it it is rotbringer keyword.

 

So list would end up being 320-340 points of allies used to have the combo but it does work, or the full 400 with the pack master.

I think that is pretty cool. Rats have 3 attacks each dealing mortal wounds on 2+ (6+ base +3 because of unit size, +1 for pack master) also those attacks get to roll for wounds as well and can get to 4+ rerollable. Really sweet combo. Add in Verminlord corruptor and you can add an attack for each command point you spend. 

 

Edit: this took me quite a while to decifer, but it all works if you read the alliegence page in the core rules. Wouldn't you think GW would be better at rule writing after 40ish years.

Yeah looks like they haven’t changed a bit?.

anyways thank for clarifying ?

[Davros]

An example list i just put togeather;

Army Pestilence.

Allegiance: Nurgle
LEADERS
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Blade
- Allies
Verminlord Corruptor (220)
- General
- Command Trait : Pestilent Breath 
- Artefact : The Endless Gift 
Plague Priest with Plague Censer (80)
Plague Priest with Plague Censer (80)
Festus The Leechlord (140)
- Lore of Malignance : Blades of Putrefaction
- Allies
UNITS
40 x Giant Rats (200)
- Allies
5 x Plague Censer Bearers (60)
5 x Plague Censer Bearers (60)
40 x Plague Monks (240)
-Woe-stave
- Icon of Pestilence
- Doom Gongs 
40 x Plague Monks (240)
-Woe-stave
- Icon of Pestilence
- Doom Gongs 
5 x Plague Censer Bearers (60)

Plagueclaw (160)
Plagueclaw (160)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Malevolent Maelstrom (20)

TOTAL: 1840/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 3

WOUNDS: 178
LEADERS: 5/6 BATTLELINES: 5 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 2/4
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 400/400

[Rangeltoft]

27 minutes ago, Davros said:

Because of this allies are taken for your army, in this case pestilance so you can have rats, but you take the Nurgle aliegence because a Pestilance army has all got 3 key words (Nurgle, Pestilance & Chaos) any of which ypu can choose as your aliegence.

The list will still need a Nurgle sorcerer to be allied as well so you can cast the spell. As it it is rotbringer keyword.

 

But it also says that allied units don´t benefit from Allegiance abiltys (page 242 in the Core Book) so wouldn´t that mean that the allied sorcerer wouldn´t be able to choose his spell from the Nurgle lores?

[Davros]

7 minutes ago, Rangeltoft said:

But it also says that allied units don´t benefit from Allegiance abiltys (page 242 in the Core Book) so wouldn´t that mean that the allied sorcerer wouldn´t be able to choose his spell from the Nurgle lores?

Now you've got me. I have no idea, and this is more infuriating given the lack of clear difference between "Army" and "Aliegence"

 

This is a huge problem given the amount of switching between the two words in battletomes. Here is how it is worded in the Nurble battletome;

When you choose your army, you
can also choose an allegiance for
it. If you do so, you can use the
allegiance abilities that correspond
to the allegiance you have chosen.
On the following pages you will
find a set of allegiance abilities that
can be used for an army that has
the NURGLE allegiance. In order to
have the NURGLE allegiance, all of
the units in the army must either
have the NURGLE keyword, or be
assigned the NURGLE keyword
during set-up.
If an army could have more than
one allegiance, you must pick one
to apply to it during the game.
The allegiance you choose will
apply for the duration of the battle,
even if you add new units to the
army during the battle that have a
different allegiance.

Then in each part of the alliegence abilities (Command Traits, Artifacts and Spells) it says models in a Nurgle "Army"

The biggest difference in the Maggotkin book and GH2018 is battleline if units now refferance "army" not "Alliegence" and this is where the grey areas start to apear.

And here i was thinking i had sorted out all the grey bits. ?

[Lazaris]

Quote

When you choose your army, you
can also choose an allegiance for
it.

"Army" here should be understood as "collection of miniatures". "Army" is not a gameplay concept of the game, and the word here has been used for the sake of avoiding a long sentence.

Quote

Then in each part of the alliegence abilities (Command Traits, Artifacts and Spells) it says models in a Nurgle "Army"

"Army" here most likely stand for "allegiance". I wonder why they changed it, but I'd bet it's just an oversight.

RAW seem to confirm your understanding, and would allow to have an "army" with a different "allegiance", however I believe that this is not RAI and will be FAQ'd at some point.

[Davros]

1 hour ago, Lazaris said:

"Army" here should be understood as "collection of miniatures". "Army" is not a gameplay concept of the game, and the word here has been used for the sake of avoiding a long sentence.

"Army" here most likely stand for "allegiance". I wonder why they changed it, but I'd bet it's just an oversight.

RAW seem to confirm your understanding, and would allow to have an "army" with a different "allegiance", however I believe that this is not RAI and will be FAQ'd at some point.

I agree that it isn't the best solution to the problem, but it did fix the problem that GH17 had where if you where MOULDER Alliegence to have rat ogors as battleline you couldn't use the Chaos Alliegence traits. 

That had to be FAQ'd.

 

So I say it is doing what it originally set out to do RAI, but here we have something that GW didn't take into consideration. But to be fair i think Pestilence are the only true offenders here. Their army keywords are SKAVEN, CHAOS, PESTILENCE & NURGLE that is alot to keep in balance. You would be hard pressed to find someone that wouldn't let you feild your Pestilence army with the standard chaos alliegence abilities, so why does it stop you running them as Nurgle alliegence.

[Lazaris]

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is with the Moulder allegiance and the rat ogors, so I'd be glad to hear more about that.

It seems normal to me that if you have Moulder allegiance, you don't have access to Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance. From the core rules:

Quote

An army can have allegiance to a faction instead of a Grand Alliance if all the units in the army have the keyword for that faction

About the army/allegiance problem with Pestilens and Nurgle, I had a look at the core rules again and I found this:

Quote

An army has allegiance to a Grand Alliance if all the units in the army are part of that Grand Alliance (including any units that you assign a keyword to during set-up). For example, if all of the units in an army have the Order keyword, then  the army can have allegiance to the  Order Grand Alliance, and would be referred to as an Order army.

This seems to confirm that "army" = "allegiance", so you can't have a "Pestilens army with a Nurgle allegiance", because "Pestilens army" means "Pestilens allegiance".

[Davros]

I may end up on the wrong side of an FAQ, but as written "alliegence" does not equal "army".

The line you highlighted just shows that GW are terrible at sentence structure. In that sentance it says the army CAN have the Order Alliegence, but it does not state that if it takes that alliegence it is then called an Order Army. The fact it is stating that if an army is capable of having Aliegence X, by all units having that keyword, it can be called Army X. 

So in my list example above it could be called a Chaos army, a Nurgle Army or a Pestilence army and is capable of having the alliegence traits of any of those 3. In the list though I have to be a pestilence list for matched play to have the required battleline but no where does it say that because of this i have to be Pestilence alliegence, in fact it says i can choose.

[Skreech Verminking]

17 hours ago, Davros said:

I may end up on the wrong side of an FAQ, but as written "alliegence" does not equal "army".

The line you highlighted just shows that GW are terrible at sentence structure. In that sentance it says the army CAN have the Order Alliegence, but it does not state that if it takes that alliegence it is then called an Order Army. The fact it is stating that if an army is capable of having Aliegence X, by all units having that keyword, it can be called Army X. 

So in my list example above it could be called a Chaos army, a Nurgle Army or a Pestilence army and is capable of having the alliegence traits of any of those 3. In the list though I have to be a pestilence list for matched play to have the required battleline but no where does it say that because of this i have to be Pestilence alliegence, in fact it says i can choose.

Say, could you maybe tel us, where it is written”  allegiance does not equal army “?

i couldn’t find it anywhere 

[Davros]

Not explicitly stated as a line anywhere, but they are used in different contexts in multiple sections.

@Lazaris was correct when he stated "Army" in the context of the rulebook is your collection/organisatiom of your minitures.

"Alliegence" is always talked about as something that is available to your "army"

First paragraph under alliegence in core rules;

"If your army has an allegiance, you
can use a set of allegiance abilities
for it in your games of Warhammer
Age of Sigmar. Allegiance abilities
allow your army to use additional
abilities and spells."

So you can have an army without an alliegence.

Also this Paragraph on the same page (242 of the big book)

ARMY ALLEGIANCE
When you choose your army, you
can also choose an allegiance for
it. If you do so, you can use the
allegiance abilities that correspond
to the allegiance you have chosen.
If an army can have more than one
allegiance, you must pick one to
apply to it during the game.

 

In both of these spots it is clear "army" does not equal "alliegence" 

Sorry if my wording of my sentence was a bit off.

Edit: just wanted to add the following from the first page of the new rules, subheading "The Armies";

Each player in a game of
Warhammer Age of Sigmar
commands an army. Armies can be
as big as you like, and you can use as
many models from your collection
as you wish. The more models you
decide to use, the longer the game
will last and the more exciting it will
be. Typically, a game with around a
hundred miniatures per side will last
for about an evening.