Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Aezeal]

6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I really have no idea what you are asking. When you say "cost of that wound" do you really mean the cost of the incoming damage? Because to do that then you'd need to come up with a different number for every possible attacking and defending unit combination.

When I refer to "wounds" I am referring to the defensive characteristic which determines how much damage a model can take before it dies. Effective Wounds refers to the total number of damage it would take to remove the model on average factoring armor and any other saves. So a model with 1 wound and a 4+ save would have 2 effective wounds against rend 0, 1.5 effective wounds against rend 1, 1.2 effective wounds against rend 2 and 1 effective wound against mortals. If the model costs 8 points, then its points per effective wound would be 4/5.33/6.7/8 against rend 0/rend 1/rend 2/mortal wounds.

Ok I get it now. That is what I mean but hadn't figured out it was already like that (I somehow thought the score was about those effective wounds and stopped there).

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

• Alarielle
• Ancient
• Waywatcher
• Venator
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 TRevs
• 3 KH Scythes
• 3 KH Scythes
• 20 Eternal Guard

I like this list. I like most things about it. I'd probably go Scythe and Sword on the hunters myself (not much ingores rend 1 or AS 2 in my regular opponents army) and I'd still doubt whether taking another 20 dryads instead of the 20 guard and 5 revs wouldn't be equally good but I can see the things favoring these units (more mobility in general by having 2 units and the teleporting of the Revenants & the EG being slightly more durable as a tarpit vs more damage out put if you'd put the dryad unit - which main role woulnd't be damage dealing ofc - in combat anyway). I'll probably try 

• Alarielle (600)
• Ancient (300)
• Waywatcher (100)
• Waywatcher (100)
• 20 dryads (200)
• 10 dryads (100)
• 10 dryads (100)
• Treelord (240)
• Treelord (240)

first because that was how far my monster mash list was and I have these models (I'll have to use an ancient treeman on a square 40 mm base.. but I have them :D). Treelords make it so I can't fit more than 10 EG since they aren't batteline. (PM 20 points left so if I get the model a waywatcher could become a venator without changing anything else but keeping it 2 factions has it's appeal for fluff reasons too).

An alternative would be 3x10 dryads, 10 EG and a single warhawkrider (if they keep wanderer keyword and why wouldn't they ... or else a gryphhound) as REALLY expendable yet mobile chaff to throw in front of a charge I fear.

14 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Ancient
Drycha
Branchwych
Waywatcher
30 Eternal Guard
10 Dryads
10 Dryads
5 TRevs
3 KH Scythes
3 KH Scythes
Treelord
Household

I'm less sure about this one, Drycha is nice but alarielle's healing could be quite valuable in monster lists like these 2 with a lot of multiwound models even before her own damage and spells come into effect. 

[Dragon10]

2 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Yeah those are pretty interesting lists.

You've got a little bit of everything, which is certainly my own bias from a playstyle view... A bit of everything worked well for us in GH16, although things may be different in GH17.

Both of those lists could struggle in Duality of Death, depending on the matchup, although that might be a scenario where you could scale back, since there's only one scenario of its kind, whereas there's multiple scenarios oriented around model count. 

I do wish they would've lowered Big D, even a little, since he's such a high-variance / low-reliability model, and 400pts is a big price to pay when he goes in at a crucial period in the game and...whiffs. 

I like the look of #1 quite a bit more, since you've got the TLA as general for the still-quite-important RR 1's to save + 2 wizards probably for loading out Regrowth and Verdant Blessing.

Similar to Nico's view, I'm skeptical KH Greatbows are worth 220 (...which isn't a new skepticism, this was expressed during feedback), especially if running them outside Gnarlroot with no change to bring KH back via Verdurous Harmony.

So I'd probably drop one of the bows and maybe go with 1 more Waywatcher and maybe a Venator for legitimate long-range threat, high mobility + solid save, and of course the chance at sniping a key support Hero or what not via Star-Fated Arrow. 

Alternatively, Azyros is an interesting option for moving him within 10" of an enemy unit you want to focus-fire, allowing all your shooting to RR 1's to hit.

Having a hard time getting away from Eternal Guard. Along with Dryads, they're our best bet for getting enough bodies on the table. They're 40pts cheaper, though, than Dryads @ 20, and 60pts cheaper @ 30.

Would love to hear from @swarmofseals and/or @Mirage8112 on the math, but at a glance, Eternal Guard look reasonably comparable to Dryads, specifically for the purposes of defending objectives in your territory, so if they're a little cheaper, that's extra points we have to put elsewhere.

Thank you so much for your comments, hunters are not that good anymore at point levels but I love the look of them and trying to keep them useful.

 

i have taken on a few of your suggestions 

 

1 x Tree Lord An 300
1 x branchwych 80 

1 x branchwych 80

5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Spite Revs 80

3 x hunters with bows 220
3 x hunters with bows 220
3 x hunters with sythes 220
3 x hunters with sythes 220

1 x knight Azyros 100
1 x waywatcher lord 100
20 x eternal guard 160

Or Durthu and 2 x branchwych 

I like Durthu model haha

 

I think I might actually prefer to take 2 waywatcher lords, have some real fire power with the bow hunters.

[Nico]

Especially when points are so tight,I don't see the value in takin both Alarielle and the Ancient - you're paying for two great Command abilities and only getting to use one.

On the other hand you need someone to put an artefact on - you want to maximise value from Oaken/Briarsheath too. It's difficult.

What we don't have is a 200ish point moderate Beatstick hero like a Lord C on Dracoth.

[Nico]

Eternal Guard do look interesting - lots of great buffs.

[scrubyandwells]

15 minutes ago, Nico said:

Eternal Guard do look interesting - lots of great buffs.

Maybe even heavy MSU with them for board denial, roadblocking/delaying, pinning on a corner, etc. They wouldn't be the best at it, and many things could tear through them easily. At 80pts for 10, though, that's a lot of MSU if one were so inclined. 

[scrubyandwells]

31 minutes ago, Nico said:

Especially when points are so tight,I don't see the value in takin both Alarielle and the Ancient - you're paying for two great Command abilities and only getting to use one.

On the other hand you need someone to put an artefact on - you want to maximise value from Oaken/Briarsheath too. It's difficult.

What we don't have is a 200ish point moderate Beatstick hero like a Lord C on Dracoth.

Hmm interesting point. I'd worry about losing the RR 1's to save command ability, but,  as one example, you could swap out the TLA for a Bwych, Errant-Questor, and another unit of 5 TRevs, giving Alarielle Regrowth and Bwych Acorn + Verdant. Errant-Questor turns her into a 21-wound model when he's within 3" of her, and he's pretty tanky since he ignores rend. You'd have a fair # oh heroes for Duality of Death and higher odds on average of Alarielle surviving a barrage coming her way.

[BloodTithe]

Am I reading this right? Eternal guard in cover have a potential 3 up save that rerolls failed saves of 1s and 2s with a 2" range? Hitting/wounding on a 3+? Bravery 9, and only 80 pts? What am I missing?

[scrubyandwells]

1 minute ago, BloodTithe said:

Am I reading this right? Eternal guard in cover have a potential 3 up save that rerolls failed saves of 1s and 2s with a 2" range? Hitting/wounding on a 3+? Bravery 9, and only 80 pts? What am I missing?

Not much. Just shhh over there. Keep it secret. Keep it safe. 

?

[BloodTithe]

4 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Not much. Just shhh over there. Keep it secret. Keep it safe. 

?

I don't understand this.... the points changes have all been super balanced for sylvaneth units but that just seems crazy...... it undermines their own battle line units which are now cheaper than ever 

[scrubyandwells]

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

Hmm interesting point. I'd worry about losing the RR 1's to save command ability, but,  as one example, you could swap out the TLA for a Bwych, Errant-Questor, and another unit of 5 TRevs, giving Alarielle Regrowth and Bwych Acorn + Verdant. Errant-Questor turns her into a 21-wound model when he's within 3" of her, and he's pretty tanky since he ignores rend. You'd have a fair # oh heroes for Duality of Death and higher odds on average of Alarielle surviving a barrage coming her way.

Sonuva...those changes would put the list over 400pt Allies.

[swarmofseals]

@scrubyandwells ask and receive! EG are complex because they have so many variables:

• massive regiment vs. full cost
• stationary vs. moving
• in cover out of cover

For the purposes of our analysis I'll just cover the following situations: both massive and full cost versions of: stationary out of cover, stationary in cover, moving out of cover. For the in cover scenario I am not going to include the cover bonus save because that would create an unfair comparison point, but I will include the shield bonus that they get.

• Moving, no cover: 4.89/6.44/8/8 (full cost) 4.28/5.64/7/7 (massive regiment)
• Stationary, no cover: 3.33/4.89/6.44/8 (full cost) 2.91/4.28/5.64/7 (massive regiment)
• Stationary, in cover: 2.67/4.44/6.22/8 (full cost) 2.33/3.88/5.44/7 (massive regiment

Keep in mind here that this does slightly underrate them when stationary in cover because the reroll 1's and 2's gets substantially better when compared to just rerolling 1's when combined with a 3+ save.

Just for reference, the numbers for Dryads are: 4.46/5.58/6.67/6.67 for <12 models, 3.35/4.47/5.58/6.67 for >12 models, and 3/4/5/6 for a Massive Regiment. All of those numbers include proximity to a Wyldwood.

If you also factor in the reroll 1's from the TLA command ability, then you get 4.1/5.37/6.67/6.67 for <12 models 2.78/4.1/5.37/6.67 for >12 models and 2.5/3.67/4.83/6 for a Massive Regiment.

In terms of offense, EG have a WDR of .0344/.0611 (moving/stationary) at full cost and .0369/.0656 for a Massive Regiment. Dryads (full price) have a WDR of .0525 normally and .07 against an enraptured target while Dryads (massive regement) have a WDR of .0565 normally and .0753 against an enraptured target.

Some takeaways:

• In small units, Dryads are a little better on the move while EG are significantly better when stationary or in cover. Dryads are better against mortal wounds that require a hit roll.
• In medium units and massive regiments Dryads are significantly better when moving, and a little better when stationary while EG are better in cover against rend 0, equivalent against rend 1 and worse against rend 2 and mortals that require a hit roll.
• Dryads are significantly better offensively when on the move and during your turn while EG are better on your opponent's turn when stationary.
• It's noteworthy that EG are likely to be based on 25mm rounds which means they are a little worse at area denial but can concentrate damage a little better and will have fewer idlers in a dense combat. It also means they are more likely to be able to get into cover with a larger unit size.

Thoughts/Conclusions:

• EG and Dryads are pretty fungible, each being defensively a bit better in different situations. EG are largely better in small units while Dryads are better in medium to large units. EG won't drop off in terms of efficiency when they dip below 12 models, but Dryads are a lot more mobile and hold ground better, but they are also tied to Wyldwoods which is a definite limitation
• If for some reason you aren't fielding a TLA general, then EG become relatively more attractive, although Dryads are still better in some situations. 
• It's annoying that you can't afford both a Massive Regiment of EG and a unit of Sisters of the Thorn. I do think we are going to see a lot more Sisters now that they don't have to be taken in a Gnarlroot list and there are likely to be large blocks of troops that really benefit from their ability. 

[scrubyandwells]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:00 AM, Tizianolol said:

• tla 300
• durthu 400
• branchwich 80
• 10 dryads 100
• 10 dryads 100
• 5 Tree reve 80
• 6 kurnos hunters schytes 440
• 3 kurnos hunt bow 220
• gnarloot battalion + household 250
• tot 1970

what do you thing about that? is still viable?

Not sure if anyone ever followed up on this.

That's the (common) list I've been running and doing well w/ at tournies over the summer, but with one more unit of KH greatbows + the Free Spirits battalion, which of course there's now not room for in GH17. My list would be 2,280pts in GH17, but you've taken out the right things in your above slimmed-down version.

In general, I suspect the above is still viable at tournies, just with less margin for error, and maybe a little more dependency on fortunate variables/matchups (i.e., scenario, your opponent's list, their skill level, how drunk you got the night before, etc.). 

In particular, I think the list might also struggle in the scenarios Total Conquest and Battle for the Pass, which give scoring precedent to any units with 20 or more models within 6" of an objective.

The above list was a premier example of an elite, low-model-count army that was reasonably competitive at tournies, but we'll have to see if those kinds of armies are sufficiently viable given the various incentives/rewards now in place for high-model-count forces. It may turn out, if you play really well and have some fortune on your side, you can still compete on top tables with the above type of list. It's just impossible to say at the moment. 

BTW on the scythe build out, I'm a big proponent of 2x3 over 1x6. Here's a few of the reasons (from the WH Community article by @Mirage8112 and myself, although the below represents my personal opinion -- I'm not sure whether Frank holds the same views on this particular subject): 

• Sometimes it’s tough to get all six scythes into combat, even with their 2” reach, especially if you’re also trying to screen them.
• It’s easier to keep both Dryads and Kurnoth Hunters fully in cover for a +1 save while still screening the latter with the former.
• Two units of three scythes provide greater board flexibility. Having strong units in two different places is often more useful than one extremely powerful unit.
• Two units of Kurnoth Hunters also makes it easier to position one unit in a Wyldwood in a way that makes it almost impossible for a large based model to reach them (e.g., a Frostlord on Stonehorn).

And three other reasons not listed:

• The potential for pincing a big block with both from the sides, minimizing that block's pile in and attacks back;
• Sometimes it's too easy for your opponent to chaff/roadblock 1x6 scythes, which is a huge problem given how much is invested in that unit; and 
• Using Navigate Realmroots for both gives you two chances to roll a 6 for the extra 5" move, turning a charge roll into a 4+ rather than a 9+.

With that said, the main argument for 1x6 is that it's one powerful activation, so that could be especially important if, e.g., fighting a Frostlord on Stonehorn. If you're only activating with 1x3 scythes but you've got two scythe units within 3", you won't kill a (near-)full health stoned frostlord with the one unit, but it may kill your other unit in return before it can activate. I think it's on you and your generalship, though, to really mitigate situations like that from happening.

[scrubyandwells]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@scrubyandwells

Some takeaways:

• In small units, Dryads are a little better on the move while EG are significantly better when stationary or in cover. Dryads are better against mortal wounds that require a hit roll.
• In medium units and massive regiments Dryads are significantly better when moving, and a little better when stationary while EG are better in cover against rend 0, equivalent against rend 1 and worse against rend 2 and mortals that require a hit roll.
• Dryads are significantly better offensively when on the move and during your turn while EG are better on your opponent's turn when stationary.
• It's noteworthy that EG are likely to be based on 25mm rounds which means they are a little worse at area denial but can concentrate damage a little better and will have fewer idlers in a dense combat. It also means they are more likely to be able to get into cover with a larger unit size.

Thoughts/Conclusions:

• EG and Dryads are pretty fungible, each being defensively a bit better in different situations. EG are largely better in small units while Dryads are better in medium to large units. EG won't drop off in terms of efficiency when they dip below 12 models, but Dryads are a lot more mobile and hold ground better, but they are also tied to Wyldwoods which is a definite limitation
• If for some reason you aren't fielding a TLA general, then EG become relatively more attractive, although Dryads are still better in some situations. 
• It's annoying that you can't afford both a Massive Regiment of EG and a unit of Sisters of the Thorn. I do think we are going to see a lot more Sisters now that they don't have to be taken in a Gnarlroot list and there are likely to be large blocks of troops that really benefit from their ability. 

You're a scholar and a gentleman, sir, thanks very much. I'll take a little time to digest all this great info.

[scrubyandwells]

49 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

With that said, the main argument for 1x6 is that it's one powerful activation, so that could be especially important if, e.g., fighting a Frostlord on Stonehorn. If you're only activating with 1x3 scythes but you've got two scythe units within 3", you won't kill a (near-)full health stoned frostlord with the one unit, but it may kill your other unit in return before it can activate. I think it's on you and your generalship, though, to really mitigate situations like that from happening.

...and as others have mentioned: If model count is going up in GH17, especially low-save models, then KH w/ greatswords will see a lot more play. Personally, I'll probably end up running at least 1x3.

[Aezeal]

7 hours ago, Nico said:

Especially when points are so tight,I don't see the value in takin both Alarielle and the Ancient - you're paying for two great Command abilities and only getting to use one.

On the other hand you need someone to put an artefact on - you want to maximise value from Oaken/Briarsheath too. It's difficult.

What we don't have is a 200ish point moderate Beatstick hero like a Lord C on Dracoth.

That is why Ive started with lists with lots of multiwound models to try and make sure her healing ability makes her worth her points. The TLA also gives her hopefully the rr1 (would be a reason to maybe include melee hunters if it turns out she's often out of range) so with shield she'd be 2 up rr1s too (which makes her much more durable.

How do you think TL compare to the lcod (no hero but still).

 

7 hours ago, BloodTithe said:

Am I reading this right? Eternal guard in cover have a potential 3 up save that rerolls failed saves of 1s and 2s with a 2" range? Hitting/wounding on a 3+? Bravery 9, and only 80 pts? What am I missing?

They have a somewhat low damage output.. And in the end killing enemies is also a great way to reduce incoming damage. The chance they will remove the threat themselves if the rest of the army is tied up is small). It's also a thing that is in favor of Dryads in the comparison that scrubs doesn't mention, but ofc that won't be their primary function.

 

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

particular, I think the list might also struggle in the scenarios Total Conquest and Battle for the Pass, which give scoring precedent to any units with 20 or more models within 6" of an objective

The alternative would be reducing enemies to below 20 with superior damage from other sources ofc.

[Nico]

Now that Sisters of the Thorn can be taken without a Battalion they are rather more tempting.

[Nico]

How much is the Errant Questor?

[Nico]

I was planning to take the Sky Command Battalion which also lets heroes offload wounds onto Arkanauts - in conjunction with Alarielle - about 6 problems with that now.

[scrubyandwells]

Just now, Nico said:

How much is the Errant Questor?

140. He has a lot going for him. I suspect we may see him as a common Ally w/ other factions as well, as a bodyguard for a key Hero piece + a durable 5-wound Hero in his own right that can kick out a little bit of damage.

[BloodTithe]

I haven't factored allies into these but how do the following 1000 pt lists look (ps I'm a huge Drycha fan.... even if she is situational):

Drycha 280

1x 5spite revenants 80

2x 3Kurnoth hunters 440

2x 10 dryads 200 

1000pts

Or

Durthu 400 

Branchwych 80

1x 3 kurnoth hunters 220

1x 10 dryads 100

1x 20 dryads 200

1000 pts

[scrubyandwells]

Narrowed list of Ally standouts (excluding compendium warscrolls):

• Errant-Questor
• Knight-Azyros
• Knight-Venator
• Vanguard-Hunters
• Fulminators
• Waywatcher
• Eternal Guard
• Sisters of the Thorn

Maybe:

• Vanguard Longstrikes
• Vanguard Hurricanes
• Prosecutor Javelins

[scrubyandwells]

23 minutes ago, BloodTithe said:

I haven't factored allies into these but how do the following 1000 pt lists look (ps I'm a huge Drycha fan.... even if she is situational):

Drycha 280

1x 5spite revenants 80

2x 3Kurnoth hunters 440

2x 10 dryads 200 

1000pts

Or

Durthu 400 

Branchwych 80

1x 3 kurnoth hunters 220

1x 10 dryads 100

1x 20 dryads 200

1000 pts

Hard to judge at the moment but they definitely look fun to play. 

On Drycha, I haven't playtested her much, but a good use might be to keep her out of harm's way until you're ready to strike with Swarm of Squirmlings. Ideally you'd strike at the bottom of a round to give you a chance at double turning and getting 2 rounds of Squirmlings + 1 or 2 rounds of her magic before any return fire.

I suspect a common tactic will be players teleporting in (or moving quickly in general) a big block for taking an objective in your zone. So you'd position her as a counter-threat, ensuring she can get within 10" of most or all of the models in that big block and light them up with Squirmlings.

[Aezeal]

32 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Narrowed list of Ally standouts (excluding compendium warscrolls):

• Errant-Questor
• Knight-Azyros
• Knight-Venator
• Vanguard-Hunters
• Fulminators
• Waywatcher
• Eternal Guard
• Sisters of the Thorn

Maybe:

• Vanguard Longstrikes
• Vanguard Hurricanes
• Prosecutor Javelins

Nice summary. I think the guy that mentioned the heraldor might have a point too though in faction that can place terrain his ability might be strong.

 

15 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Hard to judge at the moment but they definitely look fun to play. 

On Drycha, I haven't playtested her much, but a good use might be to keep her out of harm's way until you're ready to strike with Swarm of Squirmlings. Ideally you'd strike at the bottom of a round to give you a chance at double turning and getting 2 rounds of Squirmlings + 1 or 2 rounds of her magic before any return fire.

I suspect a common tactic will be players teleporting in (or moving quickly in general) a big block for taking an objective in your zone. So you'd position her as a counter-threat, ensuring she can get within 10" of most or all of the models in that big block and light them up with Squirmlings.

I played Drycha in most lists and I must say I love her. I must admit I use her on the offensive mostly to try and eliminate blocks before they can annoy me but that often means she ends up in exposes positions and while tough she doesn't always survive. This defensive idea of using her seems good though you risk not getting to use her a lot so I'd keep her midfield at least, she's fast so then she can go anywhere. About your double turn line: I'd not waste a good opportunity if there isn't a double turn. Unless the enemy has mw saves or multiple wounds her attack will kill 2/3 of the unit, on a big block battle shock will nearly always kill them (unless immune) or reduce them enough for dryads /or Drycha -who will per definition be in charge range - to clean up what remains.

[scrubyandwells]

3 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Nice summary. I think the guy that mentioned the heraldor might have a point too though in faction that can place terrain his ability might be strong.

Yeah, here's some other "Maybe's" as well: 

• Celestant-Prime
• Judicators 
• Protectors

 

[Nico]

Assuming that hordes are a thing - a cheaper Dreadwood list where you YOLO in Drycha and Alarielle with Shield of Thorns and Mystic Shield could work well. Drop the Kurnoths entirely and Spam bodies elsewhere with a Waywatcher and Venator to snipe.