Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Killax

Let's chat: Magore's Fiends

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, Qraith said:

I'm missing Time Trap in both of your decks. I always thought of it as an auto include in aggro decks. Can you elaborate why you don't run it?

Time Trap is great card, I just don't have space for it right now. I still can decide between Time Trap and Second Wind. Both are very similar, but as Second Wind is new card I wanted to play it a bit. There is nice chance that i will swap them in future (Time Trap looks a bit better in theory, in my opinion). I really doubt that i will play both of them, cuz I prefer extra action more that other cards gave me (My turn, Quick Thinking and Ready for Action). Maybe i even throw both of them away if i find out that i need other ploy in my deck, as both of them don't give extra actions, just change how your normal activation can be played.

Edited by Reggi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Reggi said:

Your deck is very, very similar to mine. :) 

Good cards are good :) 


All the Better to Slay Them - i tested it a bit and i agree, we kill things, i would need to force my self to move instead of charge to do it. Not worth to take in my opinion. Maybe in less aggressive strategy.

But why would you be LESS aggressive?


Swift advance - i tried i too, but i was not happy about it. Sometimes it gave me a choice, go on enemy territory or kill enemy that went on my territory. Sometimes i got it after i charged and killed enemy on my territory (by scoring immediately objective for that kill) and i didn't had chance to do it in that round. I prefer Master of War or Ploymaster, cuz in most cases both are easier to do then Swift Advance, they give me that same amount of glory at that same phase and they don't force me to do activation in a way that i didn't want to do, I prefer to play a ploy that i don't need to. But it's for sure not a bad card. :) 

Yeah, I'm on the fence on this one as well, for the exact same reason. While easy to score in principle, sometimes you have to deal with a borderjumper.

 

36 minutes ago, Qraith said:

I'm missing Time Trap in both of your decks. I always thought of it as an auto include in aggro decks. Can you elaborate why you don't run it?

Well, ploys are in a way the most valuable cards as they have powerful, but one-use effects. While Time Trap is a really good card, I thought it was better to get cards that would either grant me more actions OR improve my chances of hitting/killing. Time Trap doesn't do either.
Okay, so second wind doesn't either, but at least you don't have to skip next activation. I dunno... Maybe I'll switch them eventually xD

Edited by Goblin-King
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, and one another thing about Time Trap. As card says you do action and then skip activation, ploys that tell you that you get something in next activation don't work on action from Time Trap, instead that thing from that ploy you will get on your enemies activation (it's next activation after you played Time Trap). So i picked Second Wind cuz of Lethal Strike i have. Ofc, its just one card that don't work with Time Trap so it's not a terrible thing. On other hand, Time Trap allow you to do funny things: Like if your enemy play ploy like, lets say, Invisible Walls (All fighters' Move characteristics are reduced to 1 for the next activation), you then play Time Trap, you do your action without penatly, then on enemy activation he's fighters have 1 move :) It can be pretty suprising thing for your opponent, when you tell him what his card just did to his own fighters :) Ofc, there is a little grey area: skipped activation was next or played activation is next? I would say skipped don't count as next activation, but even if we count skipped activation as next, your opponent lost card that did nothing.

Edited by Reggi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The skipped activation most certainly counts as an activation, power phase and all. Only thing is that you are forced to say "I don't do anything this turn".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Goblin-King said:

The skipped activation most certainly counts as an activation, power phase and all. Only thing is that you are forced to say "I don't do anything this turn".

Even if you do it that way, we counter enemy ploys that give penalties on next activation, cuz on that activation we say "I don't do anything this turn". :)

1 hour ago, Goblin-King said:


Okay, so second wind doesn't either, but at least you don't have to skip next activation. I dunno... Maybe I'll switch them eventually xD

About that, if you play Time Trap before your activation, you in practice just change activation for "do action" with option to attack even if your fighter charged (that part is exacly like Second Wind except that it can be played on fighter that didn't charged yet) and ploys that do something in next activation, played before your Time Trap (or even after, as long enemy played them before your skipped activation), will be countered (Like enemies Invisible Wall, Daemonic Resilience or yours Lethal Strike).

 Order of activation will remain that same.

1. Enemy activation

2. Action from Time Trap

- (Yours skipped activation)

3. Enemy activation

4. Your activation

So, enemy - you - enemy - you.

 

Basicly Second Wind is better than Time Trap only in that it works with Lethal Strike or other plays that give us bonuses in next activation and can be played after 4th activation (for Ploymaster).

Edited by Reggi
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Qraith said:

I'm missing Time Trap in both of your decks. I always thought of it as an auto include in aggro decks. Can you elaborate why you don't run it?

I'd certainly run it with Magore's Fiends, though will share the deck when Im completely comfortable with the build.

Prime reason being that a card like Bloodslick Ground can negate the issues that appear when your opponent wants to charge back with multiple models. In addition I think the massive value we find here also is Riptooth being very able to assist from the backfield due to it. Which I think is a really good follow up to any of the Blood Warriors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Goblin-King said:

Coming from objective skeletons, this was such a refreshing change of pace!

Since I put aside my Undead and went dwarf, I've had the same feeling. High per-model wound count, lots of killing ability, no worry about having to sit in multiple specific hexes .... It's just more fun, not to mention easier.

Can't wait to try these guys out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Killax said:

Free Inspiration? I guess that's always a yes? I do wonder if you guys will use it more on Riptooth or Magore or perhaps even someone else. Gotta love this card. A lot of my issues with Garrek's Reavers would have been solved if they too had this card.

Now that the card actually is available to the Reavers (the generic version) have you tried them again?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Now that the card actually is available to the Reavers (the generic version) have you tried them again?

Oh did I miss the option of a Neutral card that does this? If so, certainly! I think any Reaver can become some form of can opener, altough it's often too late.

Having said that I think in general I will have more ease to play and fun with the Magore Fiends. 3 health or lower just makes it all hard for Reavers, who can't come back either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Killax said:

Oh did I miss the option of a Neutral card that does this? If so, certainly! I think any Reaver can become some form of can opener, altough it's often too late.

Having said that I think in general I will have more ease to play and fun with the Magore Fiends. 3 health or lower just makes it all hard for Reavers, who can't come back either.

334_ENG.png

Ta da! ?

I hear you on the Reavers, but more movement and more fighters are good things, too.

Also, since they Dodge you don't have to feel bad about "wasting" your Shields when you are hit by a Cleave attack. ??

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I do like this ploy for the Reavers again, prime reason being is really easier/faster acces to Cleave. Which sounds crazy but with all the games I had versus Stormcast, Orruks and Fyreslayers it has been ever so relevant. Same as a Sepulchral Guard player versus Stormcast and Orruks too. Lethal Lunge is awesome, a Harvester with Cleave, awesome too.
But first we'll have some awesome fun with Magore's Fiends. Funny enough it even appeared on the Facebook page. I think this Warband can use them both too. 
Image may contain: text

Edited by Killax

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Killax said:

Yeah I do like this ploy for the Reavers again, prime reason being is really easier/faster acces to Cleave. Which sounds crazy but with all the games I had versus Stormcast, Orruks and Fyreslayers it has been ever so relevant. Same as a Sepulchral Guard player versus Stormcast and Orruks too. Lethal Lunge is awesome, a Harvester with Cleave, awesome too.
But first we'll have some awesome fun with Magore's Fiends. Funny enough it even appeared on the Facebook page. I think this Warband can use them both too. 

Well, im using both of them in deck that i posted in previus page. Increased chance for inspiration in round 1 and chance to inspire both leader and doggy before they do first attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just crazy to me that one of the warbands with the easiest Inspire coditions gets a faction-specific card to do it and the hardest one, the Chosen Axes didn't.

 

On the other hand, because it is much easier for other warbands to inspire, including the Fiends, it doesn't seem like as big a boost for them, so it doesn't bug me that they get it.  If my opponent wants to fill her deck with things she doesn't really need badly, fine!  Meanwhile, the Chosen Axes got a big time boost from the generic inspire card.

I would like to see GW sell a pack of extra cards for the game that contains maybe 3-6 cards for each warband and a dozen or so general cards. They could address imbalances this way without having to modify existing cards (such as inspiring Axes if they were on an objective at the end of the model's Activation instead of at the end of the Phase).  This would really help us to see more Axes, Guard, and Reavers on the table (why do I always pick the worst "armies" as my favorites? lol )

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

It's just crazy to me that one of the warbands with the easiest Inspire coditions gets a faction-specific card to do it and the hardest one, the Chosen Axes didn't.

 

On the other hand, because it is much easier for other warbands to inspire, including the Fiends, it doesn't seem like as big a boost for them, so it doesn't bug me that they get it.  If my opponent wants to fill her deck with things she doesn't really need badly, fine!  Meanwhile, the Chosen Axes got a big time boost from the generic inspire card.

I would like to see GW sell a pack of extra cards for the game that contains maybe 3-6 cards for each warband and a dozen or so general cards. They could address imbalances this way without having to modify existing cards (such as inspiring Axes if they were on an objective at the end of the model's Activation instead of at the end of the Phase).  This would really help us to see more Axes, Guard, and Reavers on the table (why do I always pick the worst "armies" as my favorites? lol )

 

They have easy inspire condition, i agree, but to inspire they need to succesfull attack. That mean that they probably will not attack as inspire fighters on round 1 (you will probably charge that turn, if you hit you will inspire, but you can't make another attack on that round with that fighter except from ploys). Orruks, Stormcaster and Skavens  fighters can inspire before you activate them to attack or charge, you can't do that with Magore's Fiends (except slim chance on Gorefeasts). That's why that ploys are good, cuz you want to attack using inspire fighters (only offensive stats are upgraded after inspiration, except Riptooth that get more defence dice too), to get better damage, more accuracy and higher charge reach. So I play both inspiration ploys and I'm always happy to get them on round 1 and most times on round 2 (not always all my fighter hit or even not always i activate all of them on round 1).

Looking at this faction, I want to be hyper aggressive from the start, from first attack of my fighters, thats why want them inspired before that attack. I play them on leader or on doggy, both of them get +1 move and +1 damage in thier attacks, what is huge on round 1 allowing me to one-shot all fighters in game except Gurzag (only he have 5 wounds before inspiration if i remember corectly) with Trap, Twist the Knife, Lethal Strike or if i have Spoils of Battle and good upgrade (unless enemy have inspiration ploy too and play it on Fjul to increase his wounds to 5, then two fighters are out of reach or gets upgrade to wounds to his 4 wound fighter).

Edited by Reggi
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

It's just crazy to me that one of the warbands with the easiest Inspire coditions gets a faction-specific card to do it and the hardest one, the Chosen Axes didn't.

On the other hand, because it is much easier for other warbands to inspire, including the Fiends, it doesn't seem like as big a boost for them, so it doesn't bug me that they get it.  If my opponent wants to fill her deck with things she doesn't really need badly, fine!  Meanwhile, the Chosen Axes got a big time boost from the generic inspire card.

Frankly I sat with both cards in my hand... Looked at them and said "nah, I don't need two of those".
An indeed I didn't. It's just overkill. I never felt I needed two. I mean... It's always a nice card to draw, but their inspire is so easy, and if you actually manage to combat-inspire all four it's suddenly two dead cards in your deck.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Goblin-King said:

Frankly I sat with both cards in my hand... Looked at them and said "nah, I don't need two of those".
An indeed I didn't. It's just overkill. I never felt I needed two. I mean... It's always a nice card to draw, but their inspire is so easy, and if you actually manage to combat-inspire all four it's suddenly two dead cards in your deck.

Well, that's even more true for Spoils of Battle. You will be getting glory points (if you don't you will lose anyway) and you have a lot ways to get glory (compared to one inspiration condition) and you decide how you will get glory (objective deck). Looking at this, i would not put that card in any deck for any faction.

I like to have both of them. You want to inspire with all your fighters, without that card you offen need to choose if you want to inspire or to do optimal activation. Like you want to charge with your regular fighter or leader to inspire him or use Second Wind to attack with your Doggy again, that already inspired from charge that you did before? You want to charge with your regular to inspire or just attack with your inspired leader that was charged by Krrk that have 3 wounds - leader will probably kill him with cleave and 3 damage, where regular will not?

And what i wrote before - my leader or Riptooth on his first attack on first round can't be inspired without that ploys, so without them you lose a bit of early power, that can snowball you to win.

Im suprised a bit, cuz its very rare for me to have all 4 of fighters inspired at start of round 2 without playing that ploy. But like i said, if i don't have that ploy on first hand im still trying to do optimal activations, cuz im pretty sure that one of that ploy will come when i will draw power cards before round 2, so i don't need force my self to inspirate all of them.

Edited by Reggi
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it all comes down to hoping to get these cards in your starting hand.
Being able to use "Spoils of battle" to equip an important upgrade before the first charge can make a huge difference.

But income is pretty steady with this deck, so it quickly becomes a potential dead card as well...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great discussion guys! I guess I'm just one that believes in simplicity first and foremost as, despite be not playing a month now, this has always been the most benificial throughout all my games. Which now currently would likely number around a hundered orso, though I will admit, most of which with a more casual setting. This basically is our beer and cheese game :P 

Back to Inspire ploys!
The simple reason why I like them here (the fact that it's easy to do otherwise is really irrelevant to me, I'll explain it later). When they inspire:
- Magore gets: +1 damage, +1 move, to me this has a worth of 2 Upgrades, so yes, I'd gladly inspire before attacking as attacking is the plan anyway but more result will be obtained this way.
- Riptooth gets: +1 damage, +1 move, +1 dodge, this can be argued to be the worth of 2 Upgrades, so yes, I'd gladly inspire before attacking.
- Ghartok and Zarkhus get +1 attack dice on both attacks, +1 move. An arguement could be made that this isn't extremely special due to the lack of Cleave or any other very relevant abilities but the thing I personally like the most for them is that this way the Gorefist actually has some chance of being relevant. Which I believe is super relevant against pretty much all Warbands with Dodge. To me this makes the Warband extremely allround in functionality which rubs of as them being a great choice in general.

So to me the conclusion for Inspire ploys is that they will function as free Upgrades and I can't pass on that. In addition there are even some Objectives who care about Inspiration. So it gels very well with those ploys.

Keep it simple and aggressively efficient
What I've found is that especially aggressive Warbands really need to snowball on their opponents. This approach initially for me appeared with Orruks and if I recall correctly I also heard a lot of whispers of players stating they might be the best. What I certainly will agree with is that aggressive approaches are easier rewarded. They require a plan that is a rather simple A to B movement that aims for succesful attacks.
Simplicity is what works and still works for Orruks, but even Stormcast, because of the simple reason that if your opponent needs to thake the initiative with 1 vs 1 weaker models it's much easier to punish that with a 3 or 4 sized Warband. In my opinion the prime reason why Fyreslayers are so hard to play has to do with their aggressive stat build, (too) low movement and Objective based Inspiration. This doesn't gel well because your opponent can easily bait/mess up at least 2 Objective placements. This is VERY EASY to do. In that same vein a great buddy and teacher of mine is excellent with his Objective game IF he has 3 Objectives and otherwise the strategy often collapses. This is not a factor for Warbands like Orruks, Blood Warriors and the new Stormcast. 

As before though, Ive been out for a month... But I don't think too much drastically changed in the general approaches. What I also know is that the movement of 3 vs 4 is massive, even moreso now all the Push effects can be included up to 4 to 5 cards for certain Warbands. Push effects on movement 2-3 are massively more impactful as on movement 4+. In addition being easy to Inspire is absolutely a massive advantage. Including cards who do this without a downside are simply said because of that a MUST in my eyes. As it never does nothing. It ups your stats that otherwise would require Upgrades.

Lastly, to reflect on a Warband where I have the most experience with. Garrek's Reavers by comparison remain extremely hard to Inspire efficiently. Now that at least we have a chance for Saek or Karsus to do it earlier is very good. It adds Cleave to his Warband 'on time'. In Magore's case it adds Movement 4 and good defences 'on time'.

Cheers,



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it me, or is Ephemeral Shield a better defensive ploy than Daemonic Resilience, particularly for Ghartok and Zharkus? It puts everybody on a minimum of two defence dice - sure, you might still get hit for full damage, but you're much more likely to roll a successful defence and then trigger the reaction attack.

Similarly, Invisible Walls looks way better than Bloodslick Ground - the latter is only superior if you're playing against Undead/Dwarves, otherwise max movement 1 is much more of a penalty than -2.

Edited by glitch
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, glitch said:

Is it me, or is Ephemeral Shield a better defensive ploy than Daemonic Resilience, particularly for Ghartok and Zharkus? It puts everybody on a minimum of two defence dice - sure, you might still get hit for full damage, but you're much more likely to roll a successful defence and then trigger the reaction attack.

Similarly, Invisible Walls looks way better than Bloodslick Ground - the latter is only superior if you're playing against Undead/Dwarves, otherwise max movement 1 is much more of a penalty than -2.

Ephemeral Shield can be interesting as it does work ever so slightly better with the Gorefist of Ghartok and Zharkus, however to be honest with you, as the Swift Gorefists only deal one damage (unless we factor in Great Strenght) I still believe that Daemonic Resilience is more benifical. I'd say even moreso if your opponent has some Cleave models, which is likely the case. So here I'd actually favour Daemonic Resilience most of the time. Untill more Upgrades are added for example.

You have a great point in regards to Invisible Walls. Using both here might even be better than having to choose between the two... Being able to supress two Activations throughout a game should have a drastic impact for sure. But yeah, there are MANY great Ploys these days.

 

Edited by Killax

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, glitch said:

otherwise max movement 1

Just a point of note - it's not max 1. With +M Upgrades, you can still go more than 1.

If the card had said something like "all fighters may move no more than 1 hex" then it would get around the Upgrades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Just a point of note - it's not max 1. With +M Upgrades, you can still go more than 1.

If the card had said something like "all fighters may move no more than 1 hex" then it would get around the Upgrades.

Are you sure? If upgrade would say "when you do move action you can move one more hex" then sure, but that upgrade increase move of fighter. And Ploy decrease that move (even that it's increased) to 1. So i would say you can't move more than 1 with Great Speed. Great  Speed increase Move characteristic. So your move characteristic instead 3 is now 4. And Invisible Walls change your move characteristic to 1, it don't matter for ploy if it will change from 3 or from 4 to 1. Well, they need to FAQ it, how upgrades and ploys like that interact with each other.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Just a point of note - it's not max 1. With +M Upgrades, you can still go more than 1.

If the card had said something like "all fighters may move no more than 1 hex" then it would get around the Upgrades.

I lean towards saying upgrades change the basic characteristics of stats.
Otherwise you would be able to heal the negative effect from Cursed Artifact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Goblin-King said:

I lean towards saying upgrades change the basic characteristics of stats.
Otherwise you would be able to heal the negative effect from Cursed Artifact.

Well Sprint double the Move characteristic and, if I am correct, applied on a model with Great Speed: first you double the model Move characteristic then you add +1 move.

But you point is still good if you think about a card like No Remorse and Curse Artifact: do you score it when you deal more of the Wound characteristic of the enemy model before or after the -1?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe @Sleboda is correct here. Based on the wording of the ploy. What I believe invisible walls does is indeed put the characteristic to 1. As if a 1 was printed on the Fighter card. Things like Great Speed add to that. Therefor models with that Upgrade should still be able to move 2 with Invisible Walls. Because the Upgrade is a bonus, it does not alter the characteristic of the fighter. Because the bonus for example is lost if the Upgrade would randomly be lost.

On the other hand we have Cursed Artefact who also directly affects the characteristics of a model. Because this is a bonus and a downgrade I believe it's constant factor will decide things for doing more wounds etc. So if you score certain Objectives based on damage dealt, the characteristic is considered whatever was printed on the Fighter card -1. In Magore's Fiends for example that would be 3.

image.png.e1ba503ee3a342426d60b05ad2ec3bb9.png

I do agree that what makes it vague (AGAIN) is that Invisible Walls states 'reduced' which implies it applies after Upgrades and such. 

But what the design team means with this is absolutely unclear to me. What happens if the Movement is allready 1? Then nothing is 'reduced'?

BTW this type of wording is exactly why I took a break from Shadespire also. The vagueness of Time Trap has really had a big influence in the hype surrounding the game. In a negative way.

Edited by Killax

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...